Season 7-Race8-Interlagos Cuts and wides

[Peter Marshall]

The other thing we could do is ask every driver to count their total number of cuts in the Interlagos race. This would serve to highlight the problem and make each driver aware if whether they are conforming to the norm or perhaps need to adjust their driving style

I'll second your motion Tim. Too easy and takes roughly 10 mins with a cup of coffee. Here is my cuts & wides report.

I had a total of 1 cut and 2 wides out of the 60/61 race laps.

Lap 13 Turn 2 TS 998 - I cut it. Sorry guys; I didn't notice this error at the time as I do normally remember and more importantly take notice whenever I cross the line.

Lap 21 Turn 4 TS 1633 - 1st lap out of the pits and with cold tyres and with Jim chasing me- gotta go go go go! drats I lost itme.

Lap 22 between Turn 7 & 8 TS 1716 - 2nd lap out of the pits still with Jim even closer behind me now.

I also had 7 on-the-line corners that I noticed. Some drivers may say that I only took 7 corners properly throughout the race (J).

Edit: I use the White Line as a reference and not the coloured curbs...

 

[Valter Ostman]

I think that if you are seriously investigating a series of cuts you must go to MoTeC and read the time for that sector and compare it to a clean time in the same sector. When just plainly counting small and big cuts during a race the result will not speak the whole truth about cleanness and fairness.

 

[Jim Hawley]

I've just looked at my Interlagos replay

4 x Cut or wide (not by much)
5 x Very close but not actually over

1 x Crash (with wall)
1 x Spin
1 x Great pass on Peter

Jim

 

[David Turnbull]

so far ive checked 30 of 60 laps heres my results so far, i'll update when i check the second half....

wide - lap 16 - ts 1187, defending tim, outbraked myself, went over the line slightly at turn 4, dont think i made any time gain as tim was right on my behind going in and out of the turn, gap stayed the same.

wide - lap 21 - ts 1597, just out from my pit stop on lap 21, i had heavy fuel and the double uphill right caught me out slightly, 6 inches over the line but still a wide, no excuse except heavy car at this time.

cut - lap 27 - ts 2058, huge cut at the last corner, i had suspension damage at this point from an outing with the wall on lap 25, i turned in far too early, cut the corner by about 3/4 of a mile and landed heavily and had to correct, i may have made time on this i dont know but the amount of correcting i had to do after id landed im pretty sure it wouldve been miniscule if anything.

wide lap 30 - ts 2236, turn 4 again, this time i got wide and put 2 wheels on the grass, this slowed me considerably so no time gains but still a wide.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I check 1st 30 laps of mine to and had 6 very close some with some 3 wheels just over line to and 1 wide after pits at the uphill right corner about a wheels width no other wides at this turn(this being the turn if you run wide you can carry more speed through it).
I think gaetano needs to reply so these kind of things can be resolved to, and I did see him run wide pretty much every lap the uphill right in the1st part of the race when i was close behind him and helder. I think also with the couple of incidents to with tim, gaetano should have been on forums within a few days knowing these incidents clearly from the race, its not like they were small contacts maybe missed during race.
The white line rule ( i said it :eek is there and important i think, so we can all practise different time on servers little checking of forums and come race day we are all going to be doing same line pretty much. And during race it wouldnt bother me if someone is slightly wide even up to half the amount of laps of race or even more for example but if its done everylap that to me means trying to take advantage from it and would seem to be line practised before race.
I raced in the rdfpc league last season and the rule for there league is slightly different includes the kerb as part of the line

• Four wheels may be on the kerbing (Green area counts as kerbing) No wheels beyond the kerbing. Areas where there is no kerbing the two wheels inside white line counts.

even with this rule the wide run at that uphill right turn interlagos gaetano would still be illegal it would only allow some of the small runs over lines at kerbs at turns legal.​

This rule pushes bounderys further and no doubt would be riding the kerbs alot more, i think the white line rule as we have it allows for a less attacking kerbs line and leads to also safer racing line for less mistakes.​

But most important gaetano needs to reply to the incidents​

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

When just plainly counting small and big cuts during a race the result will not speak the whole truth about cleanness and fairness.

I agree, so I included a video and my lap times to help explain my dark numbers, because I do not feel like I am cheating

Okilidokili, here are the grave findings about myself.
I have not checked for correlation between lap times and cutting/running wide yet, but I will.
Total cuts:3
Total wides: 17 (7 in t4)
The other 10 wides (most of them) are those I am fighting to legalise,

It should be said I judged myself very strictly, any air between the line and 1 of the 2 wheels from any angel and I included it.

QualTime=1:08.422
Lap=(0, -1.000, 1:25.471)
Lap=(1, 124.108, 1:12.332)
Lap=(2, 209.579, 1:10.341)
Lap=(3, 281.911, 1:10.914)
Lap=(4, 352.252, 1:10.121)
Lap=(5, 423.166, 1:10.178) – 2 wides (incl. t4)
Lap=(6, 493.287, 1:10.253) – 1 wide in t4
Lap=(7, 563.465, 1:09.567) – 1 wide in t4
Lap=(8, 633.718, 1:10.188)
Lap=(9, 703.285, 1:10.329) – 1 wide
Lap=(10, 773.473, 1:10.093)
Lap=(11, 843.802, 1:21.927) – 1 wide in t4
Lap=(12, 913.895, 1:12.627)
Lap=(13, 995.823, 1:10.499)
Lap=(14, 1068.450, 1:11.601) – 1 wide in t4
Lap=(15, 1138.949, 1:12.447)
Lap=(16, 1210.550, 1:10.785)
Lap=(17, 1282.997, 1:10.731)
Lap=(18, 1353.782, 1:10.792)
Lap=(19, 1424.514, 1:12.201) (pit)
Lap=(20, 1495.306, 1:56.807) (pit)
Lap=(21, 1567.506, 1:10.123)
Lap=(22, 1684.314, 1:10.291)
Lap=(23, 1754.437, 1:11.307)
Lap=(24, 1824.728, 1:10.676)
Lap=(25, 1896.035, 1:10.055)
Lap=(26, 1966.711, 1:10.336)
Lap=(27, 2036.766, 1:10.632)
Lap=(28, 2107.102, 1:10.805) – 1 cut
Lap=(29, 2177.734, 1:10.306)
Lap=(30, 2248.539, 1:10.273) – 1 wide in t4
Lap=(31, 2318.844, 1:10.838) – 3 wides (incl. t4)
Lap=(32, 2389.118, 1:10.262)
Lap=(33, 2459.956, 1:09.812)
Lap=(34, 2530.218, 1:10.422)
Lap=(35, 2600.030, 1:11.259)
Lap=(36, 2670.452, 1:10.345)
Lap=(37, 2741.712, 1:10.261)
Lap=(38, 2812.056, 1:10.557)
Lap=(39, 2882.318, 1:11.399) – 2 wides (pit)
Lap=(40, 2952.875, 1:48.811) (pit)
Lap=(41, 3024.274, 1:10.750)
Lap=(42, 3133.085, 1:11.162)
Lap=(43, 3203.835, 1:10.484)
Lap=(44, 3274.997, 1:09.908)
Lap=(45, 3345.481, 1:10.050)
Lap=(46, 3415.389, 1:21.369)
Lap=(47, 3485.439, 1:16.161) – 1 cut
Lap=(48, 3566.809, 1:09.899) – 1 wide
Lap=(49, 3642.969, 1:10.002) – 1 wide
Lap=(50, 3712.869, 1:10.229) – 1 wide
Lap=(51, 3782.871, 1:18.177) – 1 wide
Lap=(52, 3853.100, 1:10.052) – 1 cut
Lap=(53, 3931.277, 1:15.206)
Lap=(54, 4001.328, 1:11.515)
Lap=(55, 4076.534, 1:11.317)
Lap=(56, 4148.049, 1:11.094)
Lap=(57, 4219.366, 1:10.853)
Lap=(58, 4290.460, 1:10.801)
Lap=(59, 4361.313, 1:11.899)

 

[David Turnbull]

ive seen enough after 2 mins of that video, ok ban nico and valter can run the league

seriously though, this has went a bit too far guys, its obvious who is going out to exploit times and who isnt, you dont have to goto that trouble to justify yourself nico, ive never once suspected you of breaking rules deliberatly, or anyone else for that matter.....well there may be one but if it goes back to having to police our laps then alot of fun will be lost, lets just forget that interlagos and hockenheim happened, get gaetanno to post here that he understands or doesnt, then go back to the way we were, it was fine before hockenheim, im truely sorry i brought any of this up in the first place, its opened a can of worms and everyone posting numbers will only keep it going.

im sorry for mentioning this a couple time after i said i wouldnt but i feel ive got to as its been me who has brought it up and im not happy leaving you guys dealing with a debate i started.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Nice report nico that must have took you alot of time i got soar head after 30 laps fast foward lol. I dont think having that many very slight wides cuts is a problem during a race its clear your not tryin to gain by running wide and at only 17 its not everylap where advantage would be greater and also the t4 its a real advantage when its beyond kerb even and regular wide line carrys more speed here is greatest advantage than anywhere else on track like t12 hungay hock t1 for example.

 

[Valter Ostman]

I am a very naughty boy. I need to reform myself.
I think I was the worst off all at Interlagos. Such a sloppy T6.
Approximated widths assuming the rear tyres are about 40cm wide and the car about 2m wide.
1,1:56:591
2,1:10.816
3,1:11.047
4,1:11.214
5,1:11.451,cut, T1, 5cm
6,1:10.965,wide, T6, 5cm
7,1:12.768
8,1:11.207,cut, T7, 50cm, Nicolas had some trouble during braking to the left of me.
9,1:10.447
10,1:10.547
11,1:11.032
12,1:10.779
13,1:12.460,wide, T6, 50cm, misjudged the grip very close behind Nicolai
14,1:21.830,wide, T6, 30cm
15,1:10.987
16,1:10.613
17,1:11.396
18,1:10.881
19,1:11.381
20,1:11.633
21,1:16.394,wide, T6, 1m, Helder passed me on the opposite side
22,1:59.070
23,1:10.198,wide, T6, 10cm
24,1:09.887
25,1:09.729,cut, T7, 3cm
26,1:10.066
27,1:09.755
28,1:09.567
29,1:10.430
30,1:12.549
31,2:03.068
32,1:10.572
33,1:09.876
34,1:10.486
35,1:11.464,wide, T6, 5cm
36,1:10.298
37,1:10.357,wide, T2, 20cm
38,1:10.825
39,1:12.279,cut, T4, 1m, I let Nicolai lap me and tried to stay out of his way.
40,1:11.544,wide, T4, 2m
41,1:11.640
42,1:11.317
43,1:11.476,wide, T6, 1.5m
44,1:11.544,wide, T4, 1.5m
45,1:11.478
46,1:11.478,wide, T5, 30cm
47,1:12.039
48,1:12.098
49,1:11.854
50,1:12.337
51,1:12.262
52,1:13.391,wide, T6, 10cm
53,1:16.044
54,1:13.687
55,1:13.211
56,1:13.451
57,1:13.440
58,1:14.130
59,1:15:257
I followed Jim for some laps in the race(one lap behind) and could not avoid noticing his perfect car control. I got so interested that I
fast-played his whole race. I could only find one illegal turn. Would you like to take me on as a racing-school student Jim?(J)

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Looking at nicos not being able to see valters im guessing that most are like nicos and only few mms over lines, if we used that 4 wheel kerb rule 99% of these small runs over lines would be legal and only big cuts over kerbs with 2 wheels would be illegal and probably we would hit limit on grip on corners before breaking the 4 wheel kerbs rule and crash. Im just thinking maybe that rule would be easier to self police as in you couldnt push further than rules allowed, if you did most turns you would crash or spin. Obviously maybe in some cases people could push wide beyond kerbing with tarmac it could prove a advantage but then this would be obviously breaking that rule.
It might mean hassle free races with no wides cuts for anyone then making life after and before races more about the fun of racing.
What do you guys think ? Id be happy to race under current or anything we agree to aswell for future seasons.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

seriously though, this has went a bit too far guys, its obvious who is going out to exploit times and who isnt, you dont have to goto that trouble to justify yourself nico, ive never once suspected you of breaking rules deliberatly, or anyone else for that matter.....

I think this is all good. We are getting more facts on the table and become wiser.

I think there are two parallel topics, people who disregard the rules and cut/run wide deliberatley, and those who "push harder" than others and as a consequence run wide from time to time. These people do not gain time when they cut or run wide, they gain time in general because they push closer to the limits.

I understand that some thinks it is a waist of time to spend so much time on this topic, while others think there is too much difference in interpetation of the rule as it is today. I think both are correct. Therefore we should cut to the core. I agree with Valter that the track should be discussed on a drivers meeting thread before each race. The general guideline is two wheels on track at all times, but every track is different, and it would serve the Presto GP ideal to simplify the track as much as possible.

At Hungaroring there is 1 place where driving wide can be beneficial. On a drivers meeting we would hopefully agree that no running wide that particular place and no cutting in general.

Those many places where it is possible to run wide by a little, I argue there is no time to be gained in speculating on using those extra cm due to the slipperyness and elevation of the curb and the proximity to grass/wall. It can be handy to use not to crash if u push a little too hard, but aiming to use it will be dangerous and hardly beneficial. This goes for almost all places where it is possible to run marginally wide I think (including most turns at Interlagos).

In all cases I ran wide too often in t6 at Interlagos (I wrongly said t4 in my above report) and I am sorry for that.

 

[Tim McIver]

I don't think you're the worst Valter!

My results...

Lap 5 T2
Lap 11 T4
Lap 12 T8
Lap 16 T20
Lap 18 T8
Lap 22 T8
Lap 23 T4
Lap 23 T8
Lap 24 T4
Lap 27 T12
Lap 29 T2
Lap 32 T14
Lap 36 T6
Lap 39 T4 WIDE
Lap 39 T20
Lap 44 T9
Lap 47 T9
Lap 49 T8 WIDE
Lap 53 T20
Lap 56 T4
Lap 57 T4

19 Cuts and 2 Wides. There were also 2 cuts in avoiding accidents and 1 wide where I lost time.

EDIT: I should mention that as I watched the replay I couldn't rememeber which corner was which! I should really have checked. So T20 is the final turn, T6-9 are the windy bits in sector 2 and I think I was okay with T1-4)

This is certainly more than I was hoping to find. Watching the whole replay through was quite helpful. I noticed most of my cuts happened when I was in close combat. Once I was lapping in the clear I was pretty clean. I think this is more a concentration issue than a competition issue. There's no doubt however that I am aiming for a tighter apex than some more careful drivers. I did find it interesting that my results were the opposite of Nicos. I think my cuts happen as a result of an error on my turn in point, rather than braking or throttle errors.

I do completely agree with Nico that there are two very separate issues being discussed. There's no doubt that everyone participating in this thread is intending to take every corner in every race completely legal. The white line rule does make that very very simple. If your planning to cut or run wide you're cheating.

Clearly however, I, and indeed Nico and Valter are gaining some advantage (however small it might be) over Peter who is clearly allowing himself more room for error (or perhaps he makes no errors!). I'm aiming at that apex, and sometimes I miss.

I am certainly planning to reduce this cut ratio significantly in the next race.

I still think we do need to discuss each track in the drivers briefing. If we were planning to keep with this mod for many seasons to come it would be sensible to save an interpretation document for each track, but I think that horse has bolted. In Hungary that one turn has the potential to change the whole race. I would be in favour of naming a number for that particular corner and imposing a penalty for anyone for cuts more than that. I do think this corner is a special case. For example, you cut more than 3 times on that corner, we add 2 seconds to your finish time per further infringement.

Maybe that's a stupid idea but I still think there's a good reason this issue never goes away. Good intentions don't give us a level playing field.

Tim.

 

[David Turnbull]

i dont think your far wrong with your penalties idea tim, but id like it to be harsher, id like to see.....

5 x wide = no points

if any driver out of the points standing goes wide more than 5 times he misses superpole next race.

i think they are harsh but fair, strict enforcement i feel is the only way to stop it, we have a drivers meeting before each race, decide the problem corner(s) and name the limit on the amount of infringements allowed.

would anyone like to work hard for 2 weeks practising, getting a good result with a lot of points only to have them taken away because they havent respected the rules?, i know i wouldnt, likewise, people outside the points would know they will start at the back of the next grid. my idea on this is gaetannos 2 podiums and a hell of a lot of points, which he wouldnt get away with.

 

[Tim McIver]

I think there needs to be some consequences but I think, no points or missing Q would really discourage people. I would prefer to see a gentle but significant penalty that punishes according to the degree of the problem.

In other worrying news...

I was worried about my Interlagos qual lap after being suprised at the number of times I cut in the race. After watching my lap I decided to take one for the team and watch everyones qual laps. The news is not good. According to the server replay, 4 drivers completed there 1 timed qual lap legally. This is a bit of a worry. Several people cut more than once, it should be noted a couple of the cuts were very borderline, but there was white line where there should not have been white line.

It would be worth people checking their lap.

Tim.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I agree with most said except penalties (no surprise). For my own sake, being made aware that I cut and run wide more than average is enough for me to lift my game for next race and onwards. Time and point penalties takes time to apply to the system, while saying that one cannot participate in super pole sounds a bit hard.

I think it should be enough every once in a while to do what we did now, a "pop-test" where we check the level of staying withing the white lines. The naming and shaming should be enough to push the crocks like Valter, Tim and I back in place.

About Tim's qual lap findings, I must say I am very surprised. Personally I was almost 100% certain that my qual lap was clean. It should be said that the local replays show the 100% truth, as the server replay can be some cm different, and one cannot expect drivers to know how their driving line will play out on the server replay. Neverthelss, all but 4 cutting/running wide on server replay sounds crazy.

Even though we spend a fair amount of time discussing it, i think it is important to remember that this is not the end of the world. Small problems like this is a dream to work with compared to those dreaded race ending incident. Here we are talking about some drivers perhaps gaining a tenth or two due to pushing harder than average, and all the perpitrators are more than willing to adjust their driving.

 

[Jim Hawley]

It would be worth people checking their lap.

Done

 

[Jim Hawley]

I wouldn't like to see penalties applied

I know it's boring and we've been over this topic a hundred times before but I don't think it does any harm to keep this issue at the top of the agenda

Hopefully just talking about it will be enough to make us all take more care in the future, until we all forget and it gets bad again, then we'll have to bring it back to the discussion table and go over it all again, so be it, we have to at least try to keep a lid on it

Jim

 

[Tim McIver]

Nico makes a good point. It is certainly your local replay which tells the truest story and I'm sure there are drivers whose local replay exonerates their lap! Lets hear from them.

(Jim is not one of those, he was one of the 4 from the server replay)

I also agree with Nico who disagrees with me, penalties are more trouble than they are worth. Might I suggest we have a target number of cuts and wides that we are all aiming for. Clearly, Peters 3 cuts or wides in a 61 lap race is very clean. And also clearly the 'crocks' who have significantly more (Valter, Nico and I!) want to do a lot better. My question is...

What is the number of cuts and wides that I presto driver should be satisfied with after completing a race?

If this number was generally agreed upon we can all adjust our driving style toward it. Peter could target those apexes a little more aggressively, I could leave myself another tyres width of room and Valter and Nico could wait a fraction of a second longer before applying the power.

Nico is right that we are only talking about a few tenths most of the time. The trouble is, at Interlagos the top 5 grid places were covered by 3 tenths. Its possible all 5 have a clean replay on their PC, I'm keen to hear.

Tim.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I know someone already mentioned this new rule in f1:

• Drivers may no longer move back onto the racing line having moved off it to defend a position

Have you however thoguht of the fact that this is one of the sporting rules that have been different between F1 and Presto GP until now that F1 have changed it to the same as we have

So we should keep this in mind, that we are not so bad in making regulation, now that we are in the middle of defining our cutting and running wide regulations more detailed. I expect f1 to follow us here as well in a few years when they have evolved far enough

 

[Valter Ostman]

FIA always checks with me before any major decisions are taken.

And now for something completely different.
To race with our rather potent car is not easy. Much of what we do behind the wheel is intuitive. It has been worn into a pattern that's repeated without thinking. For me it's the most fun to drive if I try to be at my absolute limit, while it's probably smarter to have some safety margin. I would think that if you analyze all the lap times and get out who has the most diverse lap times you get a chance taker. The guy with the most even lap times is a calm and calculating driver. If you manage to run the whole distance without any big mistakes you can end up high in the results list, on the other hand if you are attacking too full in each turn, sooner or later, you will go of track and of course loose time and position to the clean line man. For my part I find most pleasure in trying to be just on the verge of what I can do. But that means that I rarely run an entire race without skidding off the track. I would enjoy more if we allowed driving on the curb as Sean suggests. It is very dangerous but it would be great fun. Let the spinal reflexes rule I hope we can agree on something in that direction in the drivers meeting thread. But as long as we have the current rules I will try hard to keep inside the lines of course, even if it's difficult for an untidy person like me.

And I will check my Q-lap tonight.