Season 7 Race 6 A1 Ring INCIDENT REPORT

[Bob Laube]

No incidents to report

Had a good view of one in particular, the way I view the "unlapping yourself" thing is....you catch a car 1 lap ahead of you, you follow at a close(ish) but safe distance without making any attempted moves, it is not acceptable to try to race him, if the guy in front choses to let you through at some point then you can take it, if not you must stay put... that guy in front could be in a race long battle, it's his prerogative to choose whether to move aside.... this is my view on it

It was the worst piece of driving I've seen since the last thing I saw that was really bad:frown:

Jim

ahhh, now I've seen, do you mean, fortunately, not me

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

TS2909-2960 - Lapping trouble with Bob

Reik and I tried to go past Bob but he didn't seem to know we were there. It was quite disappointing as we were racing quite closely and I needed to stay close as we came in for our second stops. Reik and I both lose a lot of time.

So, I'm now a few times, the looked at the replay.
I can not detect wrongdoing by me.
Maybe can have someone else check this at later times.

I think this is a perfect example on how this thread should work Here we have a situation where the two drivers disagree (without personal attacs or being rude) and they ask for a 3rd opinion.

What is so great with this is that it means Tim and Bob have identified an area where everybody do not share the same opinion. I will look at it, but I think it is important that the conclusion of this insident is what the majority of our members thinks is correct.

Once we have reached a conclusion our league have moved a little forward, because we now all know what is right and wrong in such a situation in the future.

 

[Tim McIver]

I'll have another look as well. I think reviewing incidents the hour or so after an unfortunate incident may make one more critical! This is still a good thing for us to discuss, if everyone knows what to expect in the lapping it makes things a lot simpler.

 

[Peter Marshall]

..................................., the way I view the "unlapping yourself" thing is....you catch a car 1 lap ahead of you, you follow at a close(ish) but safe distance without making any attempted moves, it is not acceptable to try to race him, if the guy in front choses to let you through at some point then you can take it, if not you must stay put... that guy in front could be in a race long battle, it's his prerogative to choose whether to move aside.... this is my view on it

I agree and this is my view as well, unless said driver ahead makes an error such as driving wide/ outbraking. I also do not think putting pressure on the driver is "friendly" in this case. It is not their fault a faster driver found themselves behind them and now must suffer [J]; that was becasue of someone else's error.

However, I know that not all will agree with this view. We have seen other examples of this by well seasoned Presto drivers this season. There should be a solid ruling [a consesus view] on this or it will continue.


BTW, ban the super-softs!!! J Can't blame people for being competitive but we can if they are careless...

 

[Tom Watts]

I agree banning the super softs would be a good idea.

Trust me i know where i went wrong learnt some things. I was in a bad mood after making a mistake in the first stop and spinning in the second, i just found the pace i knew i had. I know next time i will back off to a few seconds behind.

Again sorry :/

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

However, I know that not all will agree with this view. We have seen other examples of this by well seasoned Presto drivers this season. There should be a solid ruling [a consesus view] on this or it will continue.

I cannot remember we have had this problem earlier this season... perhaps it was me?

I only agree 95% with Jim and you. I would not say that one never can unlap. I totally agree that in Tom's situation it should never have been attempted. However, there could be situations where it would make more sense to allow unlapping. Bottom line is that the responsibillity lies with the guy unlapping himself.

An example, if I get crashed out in lap 1 at Interlagos (short track), go for repairs and come out again 1 lap behind the rest, my whole race is at stake. I still have to make extra care and be sure I can pull of a move safely. For me it has to do with common sense... unlapping is much more serious than fighting for position, and you have to be more careful. There is no point trying to pass somebody that is only slightly slower than you (unless they make a mistake), but if you can make a super clean and controlled pass, I think it should be allowed.

So to sum up, in Tom's situation the only right solution would be to stay behind and cruise in to the position he had, but this does not mean that you never can unlap.

I am not dictating the guidelines here, this is only my opinion. But I see myself and many others as very safe and controlled on the track, and I would not like it if we have to abort our race because we've had examples of drivers making a wrong decition.

Also, I do not see why one should ban the super soft tyre?

 

[Reik Major]

I agree and this is my view as well, unless said driver ahead makes an error such as driving wide/ outbraking. I also do not think putting pressure on the driver is "friendly" in this case. It is not their fault a faster driver found themselves behind them and now must suffer [J]; that was becasue of someone else's error.

However, I know that not all will agree with this view. We have seen other examples of this by well seasoned Presto drivers this season. There should be a solid ruling [a consesus view] on this or it will continue....

I also agree!

On the first glance I thought it could have been an option, that first Jim and then Anthony let Tom unlap and then go on fighting (of course if they noticed there's a quicker lapped car behind). But Jim's post widened my view on it and he's right I think. The driver being one lap in front, could be alone on track at this moment and he could possibly let the quicker car unlap BUT if he's in a distant fight with a driver being on an other strategy and he needs to gain every second he can't be forced to let the quicker car unlap.

So in my opinion a rule for unlapping could sound something like this:

The (quicker) driver who wants to unlap
- mustn't put the driver in front under pressure
- must be sure it will be a super safe move if he makes one
- else he shouldn't even think about a move and wait until the car in front clearl let him unlap

The (slower) driver being one or more laps in front
- is free to decide whether to let the lapped driver unlap or not
- at least has to consider if he has the possibility to let the quicker driver unlap (it could be he who wants to unlap in an other situatuion)

But the main conclusion should be that the lapped driver can't expect anything from the drivers in front.

BTW, ban the super-softs!!! J Can't blame people for being competitive but we can if they are careless...

To be honest I don't understand the wish to ban super softs! I thought we made some changes in pit stops this season to allow as much different strategies as possible?

If you ban super softs, because a driver is faster with them (and therefore dangerous for the rest???) you must also ban hard compound, because a driver is slower then, especially because of much fuel (and could also be a risk for the rest???).

Of course a driver who uses super softs has to consider getting lapped by drivers who are eventually doing less pit stops. And same goes for a heavy loaded driver who has to consider being attacked more often by drivers on a "quicker" strategy and that he can only defend in a fair way. But I don't think this is a new story for PrestoGP drivers especially when it comes to fairness and awareness by/for drivers, who are on different strategies.

 

[Reik Major]

LoL, I think I posted a similar opinion to Nicolai's one but didn't notice because I was in advanced mode for a longer time...

 

[Anthony Ishak]

Trust me i know where i went wrong learnt some things. I was in a bad mood after making a mistake in the first stop and spinning in the second, i just found the pace i knew i had. I know next time i will back off to a few seconds behind.

Again sorry :/

Sorry Tom , i believe I owe you an apology , in my previous post i was totally focused on the incident itself and i fully forgot the part of accepting your apology of your first post . i mean i was rather disappointed than angry of what had happened and wanted to point out that a hyper driving regardless of the cause or situation would most likely end in a non happy ending :tongue: and i am sure you are a decent driver and just need a bit of time to get used to the Presto life ..

lets have some fun at Abu Dhabi..

my race report will come soon ..

Anthony

 

[Reik Major]

I'm happy to see such a tricky situation being solved in such a friendly mood.

 

[Tom Watts]

haha yes it has been tricky switching back to these cars for me, as i havent taken part in the league for a year previous to me starting here again, after having 2 seasons here a while back.

Iam still sorry, when i finished i looked at my replay and just shock my head wondering why i had done what i have done.


After thinking it through my lessons today (good way to use my lesson time ) i was thinking i retract my super softs statement. It comes down to the fact i should of backed off a bit and cruised. I dont know about you but i have learnt from this and hope to move forward in the next race


No energy drinks on a bad day before a race See you at the next race

 

[Peter Marshall]

BTW, ban the super-softs!!! J Can't blame people for being competitive but we can if they are careless...

"BTW, ban the super-softs!!! J." Maybe I should have made the J bigger? J = Joke? :-> I was kicking mself for not being smart enough to think of using Super Softs myself.

 

[Peter Marshall]

I cannot remember we have had this problem earlier this season... perhaps it was me?

I wasn't thinking of it so much as a problem but more as one of those "grey areas". And no it wasn't you I was thinking of...

 

[Tim McIver]

I think the well seasoned Presto driver in question was me! At Suzuka I found myself stopping for a new front wing twice in the first 6 laps. That obviously meant I found myself lapped by most of the field. In order to get back into the race I need to do some serious unlapping. I think there are several important factors to consider. Problems often occur when people are trying to unlap themselves in the last stint. This often happens after a crash or incident when a slower driver grabs a set of supersofts for the last 5 or 10 laps. With 5 laps to go, the first thing to check is whether you are any hope of catching the guy in front. If not, then its time to cruise home. At Suzuka I was unlapping unlapping myself from people I was very confident I would see again and overtake for position. Unlapping is still unlapping, but at lap 7 of a 60 lap race positions and championship points were very much still on the line. I would be concerned to see a blanket rule applied to unlapping though I am very keen for us to have this discussion.

Tim.

 

[David McCradic]

One thing to remember, safe overtaking is ultimately the responsibility of the one overtaking, whether it is for position or unlapping. If we are practicing that then we really need no rules on unlapping.

 

[David McCradic]

On a lighter note, here is Rowan Atkinson reacting to Tim's retirement in Austria.

 

[Peter Marshall]

One thing to remember, safe overtaking is ultimately the responsibility of the one overtaking, whether it is for position or unlapping. If we are practicing that then we really need no rules on unlapping.

Indeed. That clears it up for me.

So there is no need to wait for a sign from the lead car and any surprise attack is fine even it if it does disturb anothers battle as long as it is ultimately a clean move? Sometimes one has to fire one up the inside and then slow down one's opponent corner exit speed.

For me it is all about what is expected from me, and thus every driver. If one driver can do it then we can all 'ave a go.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

So there is no need to wait for a sign from the lead car and any surprise attack is fine even it if it does disturb anothers battle as long as it is ultimately a clean move? Sometimes one has to fire one up the inside and then slow down one's opponent corner exit speed.

If you add the consept of evaluating the neccessety of unlapping (what are you looking to gain, is it early or late in the race etc.) I think that is what I think at least.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

About the Tim and Bob lapping situation.

First of all, here is my general view on lapping someone:

Fast car about to lap I call car A, slower car about to be lapped I call car B.

I think car A should catch completely up with car B, and then car B should let car A past at first safe chance, eg. going deep into next corner. I do not think that car B should let car A past if car A is more than 0,35 sec behind. (in other words, very roughly speaking I regard 0,350 sec to be boarderline "right on the tail").

At A1-Ring I think Bob made a mistake when Reik was about to lap him. Reik was right at Bob's tail as they approached T1. At the point of turn in Reik went on the inside, expecting Bob to leave room/go deep. But Bob took a normal turn and went for the apex and there was contact, but no harm was done.

When it was Tim's turn to get past, my impression was that he (Tim) never really caught completely up with Bob. As he was getting closer to Bob's tail he would make a small mistake and drop back again, and before he got close enough again he (Tim) pitted.

I realise that with my view of lapping the leading car can lose anything from 0-1 second, and I think that is just a nice spice to the race Let me underline that this is just my view on the matter, not the rule.

 

[Bob Laube]

Thank you, for your participation, Nicolai

Have Fun on next Event Guys!!
CYA!