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Season 5 rules discussion

Discussion in 'RD Rally Championship' started by Senad Subasic, Nov 8, 2012.

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  1. Just collated a few more recent suggestions for season 5 rules.

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  2. Ole Marius Myrvold

    Ole Marius Myrvold
    JWB 96-13 Staff

    Hello there new guy (or, gal)

    This was the first season (as far as I know) that lasted a whole calendar year. Don't think it will happen again because of the amount of drop-outs.

    The amount of stages between service varies a bit, a rally over two days is nice. But that does mean it will take even more dedication. I really like the way it is now. If it had been on the cz-pluging I'd agreed, because there you can drive when you have time.

    See Warren's answer. I do like the grade point tables though.
    I mean, I'm never gonna be the fastest here (overall), but it is still fun to see where I can compete over a season against people at my level.

    Teams do work. A team champ is no big workload, but it does add some competition.

    A prize for top drivers. A good way to get the aliens to drive. A good way to make them say positive things about the champ. However, too be honest. A prize for the top drivers here. Would in reality mean that Fernando, Magnar and Manuel will fight for the prize. A prize will not give any other than the aliens any extra.
    However, if a prize is awarded by participation (look at RDTCC), and the best gets a little advantage when giving away the prize. It would give all some extra boost when it comes to driving.
    But then comes the problem. When one get used to prizes, if we end up with a season without prizes, many will be disappointed.

    This is the only way to check for cheating. And by the reputation of some drivers here. It is something that is needed. There are stages where you can earn 5-15 seconds by learning how to cut correctly. That is a huge amount of time.
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  3. and its only the top 5 out of each class that needs to give replays, the rest of us post because they act as a backup if the old computer-internet-thing-a-me-bob gives a wierd result/time.

    But we mostly post them for ammunition/comedic effect for the rdrbr movies... which where brilliant!

    I for one am going to miss the brilliant relaxed commentry of roy...
    ' ahhhhhh here come john for this tricky right turn.... right, right john. O dear he went left'

    Roy should be commentating for a living!

    classic stuff!

    As for the rules, happy to drive what-ever in what-ever class!
  4. Agreed.

    Must've been before my time, don't remember that.

    Anyway, great in theory, but near impossible in practice, in the championship at least. If not for the logistics of it (12 sessions over 4 days would become 24 sessions?), but from the driver side as well. Not sure if many people are able to drive two long rallies in a couple of days. Plus, it would be a mess figuring out which session to join when...
    Unless you had it worked out differently already?

    Warren explained the grading thing nicely. I like the idea of it as well.
    Someone new to the game will inevitably try the newest WRC cars, hit a brick wall competing with regular WRC drivers, let alone the fastest ones, and most likely simply stop driving altogether. This way they have a chance to compete with drivers of similar pace.

    It doesn't really (or it didn't). You can get any grade immediately, without any results in the previous seasons.

    There is that already, the grades are just an extra bit of info, can't hurt.

    As per the real world. Plus, people who team up can share tips, setups, practice together, get matching skins, and in general be BFFs :D
    I kinda agree that the teams don't really work, but for a different reason :)

    It's just the top 5 that needed to send them in, the rest did it for the videos.
    It was a lot of work though, maybe change it to top 3.

    Saving them is good practice anyway; if RSRBR messes up your times, you have a replay to verify it.
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  5. About grading.. Its pretty hard to say but imagining my self being one of the slowest guys around (Im not far from that but I think Im not between the most slower ones) then I would probably prefer the grading system because of the reasons Warren mentioned. It gives me the opportunity to have a fair fight in some ways. But its not 100% sure I would be up for the grades.

    Being where I am right now I am definately against grades, just trying to live with them. Mostly because I want to drive a car or class that I like and not the one I am supposed to drive because Im faster or slower. In some ways the 2WD cup at Season 4 was nice way to go because everyone could do it but there were few downsides. You cant form a team and its only 2WD as the title says. So basically if you dont like 2WD, you are back to driving what RDRC dirrectors think you should be driving which isnt very fun, in my opinion. I really loved one sentence from Namkung "Competitors may not want to play the progression unlock game. " That basically explains everything.

    Solution? At the moment I dont have one. Well, I actually do but its currently something I cant fully put on paper. I`ll try in a few day time though.
  6. Perhaps just expand the car choices for different grades? And put one class as 'recommended'
    Grade 1 - WRC and S2000
    Grade 2 - WRC, S2000, Group N
    Grade 3 - S2000, Group N, 2WD or whatever
    Grade 4 - Group N, 2WD or whatever
  7. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    Apologies for continuing the discussion in the Season 4 Thread, I'll try to carry my answers to Alan into this thread, where it now rightly belongs.

    Now you are opening up the very difficult discussions that Rick and the RDRC Committee have wrestled with for 4 seasons now. "How to balance the need for fair competitive racing within Classes, but still retain some flexibility to allow drivers to drive "preferred" cars". In reality, there is no one solution that fits all, unfortunately to achieve both goals requires some compromises.
    If we open up the Classes between Grades to give more choice, you end up with top drivers in the lower Classes. This may not be due to people intentionally sandbagging, but the same end result occurs. Grade 3 or 4 drivers can find themselves competing (unfairly) with Grade 1 or 2 drivers.

    I don't believe that there is a single answer that will make everyone happy, so a best compromise for the OVERALL RDRC is needed.

    I can't see how the RDRC can take this into account. I'm sure this might happen in extremely isolated circumstances only, and hopefully a good grading system should help.
    You can't try to organise rules around this case. Some drivers are much faster with a wheel, some with a joypad, some even with a keyboard. Some wheels may be better than others. If a driver changes controller part way through a season, that can't be considered (or controlled).

    One more suggestion then.
    If drivers consider the Gradings systems too restricting, and the only consideration in choosing a car is personal preferences, then why not take these proposals even further.
    Remove the Gradings, but also remove the Class Championships as well. Just have a wide choice of cars available to allow everyone to choose their favourite, and only have an Open Championship.

    Very much lower complexity, much easier for Directors, and no more trying to walk the balance between Classes and Gradings and the endless debates.

    Personally, I hate this suggestion, because it removes an important incentive for the 40 plus drivers in the RDRC who would have almost no chance of achieving a podium.
    To me, it is the opportunity for "average" drivers to achieve a class result by competing against their "equals" that has set the RDRC apart from all of the other Leagues at RD. This was the ideal that Rick has always strived for.
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  8. +1

    Apart from the Rallyesim Championship too.
    I also think that having a Open Championship would make people drop off, as it would be pretty much like competing in Rallyesim. Constantly being in the bottom of the bottom of the chart and hopeless is a bit demotivating, even you're just trying to have fun.

    Another sketchy way out would be having groups A & B. Like, WRC-A for the drivers on Grades 1 & 2 and WRC-B for the drivers on Grade 3 & 4, same for S2000, N4, and 2WD. Although this would give too much job to the staff and organizers. And also maybe wouldn't work that well if only a few number of drivers from a certain grade wanted cars from the same class (e.g. only 3 drivers from grades 1 & 2 wanted to run a N4), unless the drivers are OK with it.

    Just my 2cents here. :)
  9. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    Actually, it might work out to similar levels of results as S4, and with a little pruning, maybe even less fragmenting of results for Staff.

    In S4 we had effectively:
    S class
    N Class
    Grade 2
    Grade 3
    Grade 4.

    that was 8 sets of results.

    Using Chelton's proposal, with slight pruning and removal of Grade Results:
    N4-A **
    RWD **
    Teams **

    Still 8 sets of results and potential to reduce further depending on popularity of some classes. Maybe the ones marked ** could be pruned, I doubt N4-A would be needed???

    It's still a lot of work but maybe there is potential to make this work as a compromise.
    Rick has proposed an interesting idea for Manufacturer's Teams to the RDRC Directors, which looks to have good potential too.
  10. Daniel Monteiro

    Daniel Monteiro
    Premium Member

    One far fetched option would be to completely reverse the philosophy and drop the classes championship and only have grade championships instead. Before you think I'm crazy, read the next couple of lines:

    4 grades, like in S4, and then drivers can choose any car (from a stipulated amount, like in S4 too). Then all the drivers have to do is look in the results list for their grade and see who has got a similar car in performance, and compare themselves against them.

    And since for example some drivers in Group N class were faster than many WRC and S2000 cars, keeping just the grades championship would make it closer in each grade despite the car differences. Of course you could have an overall on top of that.

    Thanks for taking the time to read :)
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  11. Oscar Hardwick

    Oscar Hardwick
    RDTCC S9 Champion Premium Member

    I am not sure that this would work very well. The classes allow for competition and excitement for the drivers to be brilliantly manufactured. Look at the fight for the S2000 class in the final round of S4. We were all in the same session and pushed ourselves to drive over and above what we had before. Just having a mush of people in whatever car and seeing who you finish near at the end of the rally would be in my opinion fairly dull and take away from the excitement that the rallies currently produce.

    Also the current rule set for replays, teams, how the rallies run with the number of stages and services has proven to be a very strong formula. The grid sizes for every rally of this incredibly long season have not been modest but very good. There are possibly some improvements or changes to be made with overall league structure and the grading / car choices but the actual bulk of the rules are far from broken, in fact they work very very well. I would only suggest to not fix what is not broken at this time. If you do the chances are that some other aspect that we enjoy at the moment will be adversely affected by a new rule set.

  12. Ole Marius Myrvold

    Ole Marius Myrvold
    JWB 96-13 Staff

    If I'm not wrong (and I guess Roy knows if I am or not). This is the way it's done in Sweden IRL. With A, B and C drivers.
  13. Daniel Monteiro

    Daniel Monteiro
    Premium Member

    The aim of my suggestion is merely to allow everybody to drive a car in the class they wish and not be limited to something they might not enjoy. But that also creates the problem that maybe there will be very few people driving Group N for example.

    It is true that it hasn't worked out bad at all this season, in my opinion. However the rules turn out to be (even if they'll be the same), I know I'll be rallying here next season :)
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  14. Jack Hintz

    Jack Hintz
    The One and Only...I think?

    Now that the RRC models are out in the latest update, I think we should utilize them new season too somehow :)

    Edit: Just tested them all, VERY competitive! Great to drive, I can see them being used a lot next season, you can go absolutely flat out and it isnt as sensitive as the wrcs.
  15. I have tested the 3 RRCs and likely I will get myself a RRC. I wonder the next (maybe 2013) update will feature R4 cars. Anyway, depends on using S4's RDRC group/newer WRC groups.
  16. Jack Hintz

    Jack Hintz
    The One and Only...I think?

    They do need to sort out the sounds though, its very irritating only having the fabia s2000s sound on all of them.
    Hopefully when 2013 comes out it will have R4 and R5 :D
    I've got a few ideas written down regarding S5 and car classes etc, would make it more fun for everybody if we involve the RRCs.
  17. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    I haven't been able to download Update 7 yet, but assuming it follows the format of all other Cars in RSRBR, it is easy to allocate engine sounds from other cars. It may not have individual sounds for the new cars, but you should be able to assign another car's engine sound if you consider one to be better.
  18. Jack Hintz

    Jack Hintz
    The One and Only...I think?

    Ive tried changing the sounds in Sounds/Engines/N4_S2000_2.ini
    But no change, unless I'm doing it all wrong O_o
  19. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    I've sent you a PM, rather than keep this thread off topic.
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  20. Some very interesting ideas here. And all for Jack to sort out, lol. (Sorry mate, I'm enjoying my retirement)
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