Season 5 Race 8: Hockenheim Drivers meeting

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Ok, what does everybody think about cutting and running wide at Hockenheim? Are there any particular places where it should be ok to make an exception? If you do not think so, please post that as well

Personally I need to take a few laps again before I post my personal opinion.

 

[David Turnbull]

i dont think theres any need for an exception, ive started out practising this by keeping 2 wheels within the white lines as has always been the case in.......? 3 season of presto ? ive managed a 1.13.8 with being a totally clean lap, theres no major reason why we should be considering this, the rules are the rules.

obviously a qualifying lap needs to be spotless with regards wides/cuts but in a race situation i think a certain amount of leeway is needed but thats not to say it should be forgotten about, we used to have the 3 cuts penalty rule, something like that could apply but up the limit to 5-7, obviously work would need to be done after the race and people would need to be honest about their actions during the race to police it but i think this is a one off rare track that near every corner can be taken in a way to make up time.

only my opinion of course but id rather not start running wide or cutting tracks just because it can be, id rather we stuck to the rules that have been around for a while, close season is the time to discuss rule changes for next season.

David

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

After racing 15 laps with Valter, Kurt and Jim just now, I was running wide a few times in t1. Besides that I did not find it problematic to stay within the confines.

I agree though that the qual lap should be spotless, although the problem of policing it I do not like. And calling for everybody to be honest about it, that includes everybody reviewing their qualify if they are in doubt. And if they had a super qualify and race, got their best place ever and then find out they were 1 inch wide in q, will all drivers then report it? Maybe half or so would report it in such a situation (wild guess), thereby being deducted 30 seconds from their lap time, while the more cynical half would escape the situation unnoticed.

So I like the idea with a clean lap, but the draw back is that it includes extra reviewing work from the drivers that they could rather spend on other stuff and also a system that could ultimatley benifit the more cynical minds

 

[Peter Marshall]

Ok, what does everybody think about cutting and running wide at Hockenheim?

Should not be done.

Are there any particular places where it should be ok to make an exception?

No.

If you do not think so, please post that as well

Don't redesign the track! Let's all race on the same one.

Perhaps if a track has a problem where the lines are an issue, we could choose a venue where it is not; Macau? J

 

[Jim Hawley]

I really think we should all be trying to stay inside the lines, it's not that hard to do, you just have to go a little slower (comes naturaly to me)

here's a nice lap: (though not 100% legal)

Jim

 

[Valter Ostman]

I don't think it should be legal to cut anywhere. Going wide is illegal, no exceptions at any turn in my opinion, but I know I will go wide a number of times when I miss an apex, can’t help it, sorry. I can always lift off a bit to ensure that it will not be among my best laps.

In turn one you can gain maybe 0.3 by going wide in the exit, and between turns 16 and 17, going wide can give you higher exit speed. I will check everyones laps after the race, and report deviations to race directorJ. It's only max 1200 race laps to study.

Perhaps if a track has a problem where the lines are an issue, we could choose a venue where it is not; Macau? J

Have you tried Misano? Unforgiving like Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven, but an interesting track. It has a near full throttle left turn that opens up in three apex steps - wonderful.

 

[Reik Major]

Hy folks!

I'd also say, that in qualify it is mandatory to stay inside the white lines with 2 wheels all the time.

And for race I'd say, that we allways try to stay inside the white lines with two wheels. If you go a bit too wide by mistake you won't gain the same time like going wide on purpose. So I don't see a problem, because no one will do it on purpose I'm sure.

Just to be sure we talk about the same places (turns) I add the official track map. Valter said something about turn 12 and 13, but looking at the map I'm sure he meant turn 16 and 17. (?)



btw: did anyone else notice that the pit limiter doesn't automatically turn off at the pit exit?

It tunrs on at the entry, but not of then...

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Perhaps if a track has a problem where the lines are an issue, we could choose a venue where it is not; Macau? J

I would say the majority of the tracks that we use this could potentially be a problem, and ending our "f1 race the following Wednesday" is not something I am keen on doing.

It is good to see that everybody so far more or less thinks the same when it comes to cutting and running wide. The question is however very simple to answer when you can disregard the policing problem of it. (not you Valter, you had a neat little solution to the problem, but I would not recommend taking that task upon yourself, I've done it before and it is not the most fun I have had in my life, it took much longer than I thought)

To illustrate, a couple of drivers have included cutting and running wide (q and r) in their report. Obviously I have to disregard this information, because I cannot punish that one or two drivers that were the only once looking for cuts and wides in their replay. I am sure there were more people than the few that reported it that ran wide if u get my point. So in effect, so far this season, nobody have received penalty even though they have reported it. (I guess you remember Mr B, that you reported that you were marginally wide in q a couple of races ago?) That means that the rule have no effect besides telling people what they should do. It involves extra work for a very few drivers who take the time to report this, but their time spent is in vain, because I have to disregard it.
I am not saying that because of this we must allow cutting and running wide, I am just trying to describe the whole picture, because only asking oneself how they would like it in utopia I would also say (as I did):

I agree though that the qual lap should be spotless, although the problem of policing it I do not like.

I bet, if this issue was not raised, I would find (if I had checked) that several of the qual laps in our future Hockenheim race would be void.

 

[Peter Marshall]

btw: did anyone else notice that the pit limiter doesn't automatically turn off at the pit exit?

It tunrs on at the entry, but not of then...

I finished a 67 lap marathon with some of the Pacific Crew a few minutes ago. Phew! One fo the guys received 2 stop n go penalites in a row whilst pitting. As I was in TeamSpeak, I think it may be as you suggest Reik; he was turning off the pit limiter manually [and still getting the penalty]... However, for me there was no issue and I pitted twice.

I have "updated" my track via the Presto Updater [I don't know if that made a difference but i thought I'd mention it. ]. Pit limiter came on and off automatically for me.

Have you tried Misano? Unforgiving like Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven, but an interesting track. It has a near full throttle left turn that opens up in three apex steps - wonderful.

Yes, and I agree Valter.:good: My Macau suggestion was obviously meant in jest [hence the "j" at the end]. I enjoy following the F1 calendar; Korea is now available

 

[Valter Ostman]

I looked in the wrong map, Wikipedia Hockenheimring. You are right I mean 16 - 17 in your map.

Hy folks!

I'd also say, that in qualify it is mandatory to stay inside the white lines with 2 wheels all the time.

And for race I'd say, that we allways try to stay inside the white lines with two wheels. If you go a bit too wide by mistake you won't gain the same time like going wide on purpose. So I don't see a problem, because no one will do it on purpose I'm sure.

Just to be sure we talk about the same places (turns) I add the official track map. Valter said something about turn 12 and 13, but looking at the map I'm sure he meant turn 16 and 17. (?)

View attachment 31907

btw: did anyone else notice that the pit limiter doesn't automatically turn off at the pit exit?

It tunrs on at the entry, but not of then...

 

[Reik Major]

Nice one Valter. Now we know that wiki isn't allways the only holy resource. :tongue:

But I have to give in, that they sometimes mark turns in the official maps, where I don't see any (maybe only that they can say: "Look how much corners our circuite has. It isn't boring! ")

But to talk about the same thing we should use the official maps.

@Peter: Seems to be a small strange thing. I'll definately have some offline tests before the event, to see if it happens there too and where the AI turns the limiter on and off. If I'm still unsure then, I'll do it manually in the event with some extra safety room.

 

[Reik Major]

I really think we should all be trying to stay inside the lines, it's not that hard to do, you just have to go a little slower (comes naturaly to me)

here's a nice lap: (though not 100% legal)

Jim

In general I agree with you, but I've taken a shot from this lap (exit of final corner) and would like the community to say their opinion, if we want to call this

1. "legal"
2. "illegal"
3. "can happen, but we try to avoid it"



I'm really curious! Even though I welcome the white line rule, I wouldn't call this "illegal". I'd call this racing, and the extra room he uses is limited to everyone in the same way by the gravel. I don't want to say that I want to drive this way intentionaly, but if it happens sometimes in racing, I don't see a need to blame anyone for this.

Finally I'll do like the majority decides. If the most guys here call this "illegal", then I won't have a problem to avoid it. :wink:

 

[David Turnbull]

in my opinion its got to be an illegal lap, if the white line rules are to be followed at all it must be 100% of each and every track, no exceptions, if we have to take penalties for it then id be happy to, im just not into the fact you can make up loads of time by running wide like that, i hate that we are even having this discussion after 3 seasons of having the rules.

another way of looking at this is that it can have a safety effect on the group, if we all strive to put in clean laps then the safety aspect increases as we lift off earlier to make sure we stay within the confines of the track, instead we could end up with a situation where 2 guys,driver 1 stays within the track limits(within white lines) driver 2 approaches the corner way faster due to him taking wider on exit so can carry way more entry speed, this causes a problem as driver 1 is braking where driver 2 wouldnt be.( i think you get my point).

im not saying every lap of the race needs checked to see if there have been cuts or wides, but as long as we know that each driver is aiming for the same thing (clean laps) then we are fine, but if theres an uncertainty about the whole thing then folk will try and push their luck.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

When I re-read my latest post I can see that it is articulated in anything but a diplomatic way. I did not mean to get in anybody's faces. I'll blame it on a combination of being a bit frustrated that people did not seem to understand my point and a tendency to sound a bit harsh when I am trying to be pragmatic and effective Never the less I think what I was trying to say is highly relevant, so I'll reprhase myself (and add some stuff):

The way the cutting/running wide rule is today is what the majority of this thread wants. I am however saying that there are problems with the way we are doing it now, namely:

It does not work as intended as I do not check the replays, nor do I ask the members to do so. I want this league to be about fun, therefore I do not wish to ask anyone to do any more boring work than what is absolutely neccessary. Studying the incidents you have been a part of is VERY important and does not take too much time, checking for cuts and wides is much more time consuming and much less important.

Personally I see two solutions, both constructed to create close to 0 work for the Race Director

1.
Everybody honestly tries to be on the correct side AND does not care if their opponents from time to time goes wide or cuts. This needs to be baked into the Presto GP culture. Because cutting/running wide will (and does) happen. We are too many drivers doing too many laps on too many tracks to make it realistic to believe otherwise. Hence what Reik sais; that we cannot regard an occational cut or wide as braking the rules. Also, we will see a spread in how successfull drivers will be in avoiding going wide or cutting. I guess forum heckling would be the instrument to keep this spread withing reason. Personally I have no problem accepting this alternative, but I am not everybody.

2.
Alternativley one can alter the track boundaries (as they do in real racing) through a race meeting. This way one will obtain a pre-agreed boundary that is to a much greater degree regulated by the track itself. To give an example; the turn at Interlagos where Mark found that Reik had made a small cut in his best practice lap. One can only cut with a few cm in that turn, and doing so you are also running a risk of losing control of the car and there are probably not much time to be gained (if any) in doing it. From a Race Director's perspective, who wants the league to run by it self more or less, it makes a lot of sense to allow a drivers meeting to identify such spots and allow cutting in that turn (and in similar cases). Personally I have no problem accepting this alternative either, but I am still not everybody. There will of course be a hint of alternative 1 baked into this alternative as well, as drivers still are able to cut/run wide on a pre-determined race track. But the "pressure" will be less so to speak.

Any other alternatives where the race director (or the drivers) does not need to do much/any work are more than welcome A solution like alternative 1 but including qualify as mandatory in the incident review could be possible, but it could also be pushing the drivers work load a bit too far. It might be easy from your perspective, but from the Race Director perspective he has a large number of people where everybody has to do it. We are not better than the weakest link I am afraid .

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

View attachment 31930

Personally, I would like to see stuff like that legal because:

As a driver, it feels a bit artificial to avoid at all cost braking the line when the surface ends just a few cm away. It gives me a greater feeling of driving on the edge, it feels more natural. However, I would not have any problems accepting the white line as the boundary.

As an admin I know that allowing it makes the track self regulatory (in that specific exit). I also know that if it is illegal we will still see an occasional wide, and with time we will also find that some drivers does this more often than others (thus not 100% fair). Allowing the "wide" however is in my eyes 100% fair.

According to the present rules are now that is not allowed, but it will most likely have no consequences, except for perhaps your conscience.

 

[David Turnbull]

i see all the points for and against the arguement of running wide or not, but i just practised for a week under the impression that the white line is my limits, i still think this shouldnt have been brought up until the close season the rules were in place at the begining, but.... if we are to allow slight wides then id hope we can get this sorted out soon so that with my second week practise i can use it to good effect instead of practising a line that will put me well down the field.

David

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

i still think this shouldnt have been brought up until the close season the rules were in place at the begining,

I too am greatly looking forward to the time when we have "arrived", when all the rules and guidelines are final and all our members knows them well and race, study and write by them. The time when all processes are semi or fully automatic, when 100% of the focus is on the race and not in constructing or re-constructing the league (when all the members hand in their race report by sunday night coff coff ). I want this time to be season 6, because I do not want to wait anymore We are nearly there, but the price tag is stuff like this.

All that being said, I trust a racer of your caliber will have no problem adapting to either of the scenarios in the exit of the last turn. Besides, it is the big picture I am concerned about, how to do this in the future. If we implement it already now instead of after the season is of no importance for me. But after the season there are fewer guys here to discuss with

 

[Jim Hawley]

I think we need to differentiate between cutting and wide,

Wide is using all the available room as kimi does to good effect and seems acceptable in real life f1, cutting is a different matter, I'm talking about missing out sections of track, like the second apex of t1 at Singapore, this must not be aloud, it wouldn't be in rl so why should it be here

Jim

 

[David Turnbull]

Touche Nico, Touche

id agree with what Jim says, cutting no no, wide by a couple of inches never killed anyone (well maybe did but thats a diffrent convo),plus you cant go too far wide before grass of gravel but what would the rules be on t1 and the last complex?

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

but what would the rules be on t1 and the last complex?

Here I would trust that the democratic voice of a drivers meeting would find the best solution. But again, not neccessarely starting from Hockenheim, I would leave that to the democratic voice as well. And I'm sure there are voices that have not been heard regarding the matter in general

To ease the mind of any who's mind is troubbled, I do not think this (if it is decided) will turn upside down on our racing. Nobody would vote through stuff like cutting the second apex at t1 in Singapore and quite possibly running wide at t1 in Hockenheim