Season 11 - Alternativ qualify?

[Nicolai Nicholson]

The time we have for the qualify session is partly dependant on how long the race will be. Never the less I would like to propose (to test) an alternativ qualify format:

5-6 minutes open qualify:
This would make the qualify session more colourful, exciting and stressful It would mean that one would have the option between fueling for 2 laps + outlap or 1 lap + outlap (both alternatives have its strengths and weakness). This would also more closely resemble the real f1 qualify, where they usually have 1-2 shots at the "perfect lap", and they have to deal with traffic as well.

Obviously, if one sees traffic as a pure "evil" we would be better off with super pole as we have today, but personally I like the added dimention traffic gives us.

Lastly, I am not proposing to use this in season 11, I am only proposing to test it, eg. in the upcomming practice race, and after that we would see if it is something we wish to consider. I am also more than happy not to test it if that is the will of the majority

 

[Helder Filipe]

Ohhh never think about it Nico, really good idea in my opinion, do not lose the possibility of surprises in Qualify even if we have one more chance, but with the traffic like you say the stress will be up also, and is more closer to reality, so, for me approved, but let's test it before.

 

[David Turnbull]

its also an approval from me but like helder says lets test it first, do we want to test it from bahrain or from one of the other test/practise races?

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Good idea, i've always hated Hotlap purely for selfish reasons.. I suck at it, two attempts would make my qualifying runs much more consistent. There's also the added benefit of doing 2 runs, one safe and one aggressive, less pressure on the aggressive attempt if you got at least some kind of time on the table.With hotlap it's always one safe lap and that's it.

I think we can handle the traffic but it needs a lot of testing to be sure.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

David: I would suggest to test it at Bahrain. As the track is long and we are relatively few, most would get in 2 tries, and most likely the qualify order would be representative of race pace. (which is good for the tyre wear test).

Kennett: With 5-6 min qualify you most likely only have time for 1 outlap. On shorter tracks with a large grid (massive traffic) one might be lucky to get in one timed lap. My point is that I think the alternativ qualify would on average lead to a less predictable grid. (although as I argued above, at Bahrain (long track) with a small grid, this alternativ qualify will likely give a predictable grid).

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Ah, so "safe" lap would actually get you higher in the grid..

 

[Reik Major]

Hm... I'm not sure what I shall think of Nicos idea.

I'm not in fear of traffic or stress or other related challenges, so in this matter I like the idea.

But I fear scenarios where the quicker drivers "fight" their way through the traffic during the outlap to get a free run for their timed lap. The result would be that our gentle "not so fast" drivers would give in (similar to lapping) not to hinder the top drivers (and to influence the championship battle). This would create a disadvantage to those more patient drivers as the quicker drivers might have the biggest chance for a clean run and even two shots, whilest the slower drivers might not get these chances.

I'd be afraid that we'd create an extra incident report thread for qualify and that it could get bigger than the one for racing as we'd need to explore so much new critical situations we didn't know about before. I mean there'd be so much grey area situations which would give room for extense discusions I guess.

But maybe I'm a bit too pessimistic so of course I like to give it a try, too.

PS: When we introduced the super pole I also thought it would lead into some more mixed grids due to higher stress and the required balance of risk and safety. But I never thought that we're so skilled to get 1 clean run done soooo frequently. Btw, changing weather could mix the grid a bit more.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

But I fear scenarios where the quicker drivers "fight" their way through the traffic during the outlap to get a free run for their timed lap. The result would be that our gentle "not so fast" drivers would give in (similar to lapping) not to hinder the top drivers (and to influence the championship battle).

We would need some dicipline and clear rules. The way I see it one should never care about cars behind when on a timed lap, at the same time as one need to take immediate actions (press escape or go off track and see if you can re-slot yourself for another try) as soon as your timed lap is compromised (made a mistake and lost considerable time).

If we ever got a situasjon where a slower driver gives up his timed lap because a faster driver has caught up with him, I would want to return to super pole.

I agree that this would lead to more incidents, but that is usually the case when we are looking for more action/fun. (in season 10 the qualify results were relatively predictable)

ps: refering to your quote, for faster drivers to fight their way past slower cars in the outlap is both natural and encuraged. it is an advantage for all if we leave the pits in the order of our pace. To give an example, if i am not very fast on a track, I do not wish to go out right before one of the aliens. If I do, i would want them to pass me before I start my timed lap.

 

[Steeve Fournier]

I like this idea Nicolai!

 

[Valerio Vinassa]

Im agree for testing new qualify but i cannot not see that Im THE TRAFFIC and if I am on mine qualify lap sure I dont think who is behind , sorry alien but I also try to do a pole. I have same thought Reik true what you say and also what say Nicolai,dont jump before a speedy guys but think that in few minutes is not easy look the set look the grid if some aliens is on pit lane and find concentrations for a clean lap, in any case is exciting this purpose.


PS my new strategy for season 11 who i stop in qualify lap this time?

 

[David Turnbull]

im starting to think this might not be the best idea nico, i'll try explain my thoughts......

with 5-6 mins of qualifying and traffic, not much will change from superpole except that there will be traffic, 1 lap will still be the only way to go, if you take enough fuel for 2 laps plus the outlap then you must use radiator 2 to avoid smoking which in turn makes you a bit slower and being heavier then having worn tyres for your second lap, it doesnt make sense to do 2 laps, also at all tracks the time it takes for an outlap and lap wouldnt enable anyone to do their lap then pit and do another outlap and lap.

all im seeing from this is superpole with traffic, and that is sure to put the cat amongst the pigeons but was there anythign wrong with superpole in the first place? still the most nervewracking time of the event, with traffic it would just make it impossible.

another way would be to use 10 mins qualifying with traffic, then everyone gets to have a couple of runs at their quickest but also has to negotiate traffic to get the 1 good lap, but i feel 5-6 mins is too little time or we are as well staying how we were.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

What about 10 minutes and 2 timed laps? That means 4 laps total (if everyone escapes the inlap in a safe place) and would be easy to monitor so no one can do 1outlap+1hotlap & 1outlap+1hotlap. You could take two routes, first safe and then aggressive or first aggressive and if you spin you can do another attempt or even 2 in a roll (1outlap+escape mid-lap & 1outlap+2hotlaps) all inside this four lap rule.. That would give more options.. And then when you combine this 10 minute session with weather even more realistic. Personally, i've found hotlapping just another private warmup, i do miss other drivers on those sessions.

Wouldn't expect any cheating as those laps can be checked afterwards.. Just the notion that you can get caught should resolve all suspicions. Not that those would arrive anyway but in sport you have to eliminate all doubts of fairness as early as possible.

. Everyone should find a clear track then and only thing that you would lose is tire temps when creating those gaps. We can easily take time away from practice, very few actually practice there but more it's a joining session and checking that everything works (gear, setup, enough beer).

What are the shortest and longest track we've used? We could try to find the perfect length by mathematics. If the shortest lap is 1:10 and the longest 1:40:
4x70s=280s=4min40
4x100s=400s=6min40s
Give 1 lap of setup change time on top of that, round it up and we come to 8 minutes. On longest track you could do maximum of 5 laps anyway, most likely everyone would go for 1outlap+2 hotlaps. On shortest track that would allow theoretical 6 laps, most likely that would mean 2 separate attempts. It's not far from 10 minutes and you would need to hurry then. Weather has more chance to change as 6 minutes really is a bit short time for Race07 weather module to make any changes (unless they are VERY drastic..)

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Noone will argue (at least not me) that this alternative qualify will make it (in general) harder* to put in an optimal time. For some this is an arguement against it, for some it is the very reason for proposing it.

I do not agree that it is the same as super pole with traffic, although many times it will be I think I would most likely qualify with enough fuel for 2 laps, as those extra liters will cost me no more than 0,1 sec, and I see the chance for a second try as more valuable. (I am not convinced one needs radiator 2 for outlap + 2 tries). I can see this choice might be different for more skilled drivers.

Having said all this, I am not convinced it is a good idea, as it will be a major challenge to make it work smooth

.We can easily take time away from practice, very few actually practice there but more it's a joining session and checking that everything works (gear, setup, enough beer).

There is no time to take away from the practice session, because it is as you say, a joining session. Our race night (when everybody must be present) is from 8pm - 9.30pm (3xpractice start, qualify, warmup, race). If you "take time" from the practice session you are in reality making the event start earlier.

As I've said earlier, I am not saying that 8pm-9.30pm is impossible to change/increase, but we need to be clear about that fact if we propose a mix of sessons that will take longer than 8pm-9.30pm.

edit:* A complex sentance that I think I wrote wrongly (but corrected now). Obviously I agree that 5 min super pole makes it easier to set an optimal time than 5-6min open qualify.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Have i missed a schedule change?

It says this in the general info and this is what it was when i last raced:
19:00 Free Practise
20:00 3 Practise Starts + Pit Stop Test

That's one hour of practice, after that it's qualy, warmup & race..

EDIT: i see now what you mean, we got different definitions of the start of the official session, for me it's the first time said in the schedule... Qualy could start at 20:00, imho, everything else sorted before that. In every league i've been it's always been that start of practice session 2 is the start of the official sessions and i act here the same. It doesn't differ at all from what we got here. Most join at 25%-50% of the practice (15min to 30min when it's one hour long.) and then someone who has trouble (or rushing from work etc.) joins later. Everyone s expected to be ready at the last 15 minutes left. And unlike here, there is no late joining or session cycling but that part is what i like so no one is left out because of some minor technical issue..

One hour of practice could easily be 50 minutes without anyone suffering from it. 1 hour imho has always been way too long. In theatre productions, all actors need to be in costume at their designated call positions 10 minutes before the show (call position is offstage, behind the set etc. where the actors can access their start positions as fast as possible when the call "all stations: take start position and standby" comes.) The crew has to be before that, so it's usually 15 minutes (all systems checked, reported and on standby, you got nice 5 minute buffer before blackout ) and that's my way of doing things.. They have tweaked that routine for hundreds or thousands of years so they must be on to something about human nature. Only variations are 15 minute mark instead of 10 but no actor is ready anyway by then as that 15 minutes lowers your alert levels and the start of the show is lazy and distant And then some actors after doing it for 40 years come straight from the toilet and run to the stage about 2 seconds late.. night after night..

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Between 8pm and 9.30 pm UK time is when all drivers have to be present to be part of the race event. In other words, if you arrive after 8pm it is too late to join (although we do what we can to "rescue" those unlucky once). Also, if you have to leave at 9:20pm you might as well not join. So when we consider the schedule the question is, when does qualify (or practice start) start, and when does the race end (iow when do ppl have to be present).