SEASON 10 Race 8 BARCELONA - Lap counting Incident (Marko)

[Marko Vuori]

The game did not count all my laps in tonight's race, and because of that I finished 9th instead of top-3.

Here is the report:
On TS=871 I started my 9th lap normally on P3. At the end of that lap I pitted for wet tyres, and after the pit stop I got back on track at what should have been P4, but instead I had to drive another 9th lap as the game did not count my lap. During this second 9th lap my position dropped from 4th to 16th. Then finally on TS=1105 my 10th lap (should have been 11th) started. At around TS=1175 the game started to give me blue flags, because Reik was behind me (actually we were on the same lap and fighting for P1). At around TS=1182 the game said something like: "Blue flag, third warning, you must give way". I then had to give my lead away without fighting as I had been DQ'ed otherwise? I later had to let Helder and David pass me without challenging (even though they were actually on the same lap) for the same reason.

Did this ever happen before? Very frustrating as I think I could have fought for win today. I think that lap that was not count for me, should be counted for me afterwards. Of course, it's difficult to compensate the time lost because of blue flags and letting drivers by. So, what do we do now?

 

[Steeve Fournier]

That's shame! Very unlucky game bug Marko! Hard figure this one out!

 

[Reik Major]

Indeed that's a very big shame! I can feel your anger.

As far as I remember I have never seen this kind of bug before. Very strange to see your positions drop in the replay. When I overtook you the first time, I didn't know about your dropped position and thought you were just struggling with grip on the bad line. Later when I overtook you the second time after getting my slicks on I noticed that I was going to lap you and just thought you may have had an incident before. So I didn't notice the bug in the race.

But how to deal with it?

In my honest opinion it's clearly bad luck for one individual racer. One "unwritten" guideline of the mostly self regulating PrestoGP community means that everyone who suffers from game bugs or own technical issues has to accept it as one's fate.

That may sound harsh to you and considering Dino and I are the closest contenders to you in the championship now it could also sound selfish. But I do only compare it to cases like other drivers having disconnects or big lags/freezes or being invisible due to a bug and get involved in a crash then. All of them lost worthy points. So from an objective point of view I can't see a reason to treat you in a different way.

Saying that I'm the last one who wouldn't grant you the points you were heading for without the bug. So if the majority agrees in a compromise to allocate you the deserved points I'd be happy to join this majority.

PS:
Whenever we have such frustrating smaller or bigger issues/bugs like this one, or getting dropped on another car at the grid I always think if it would be better to use only standard ingame tracks to elliminate the bugs being most likely caused by the addon track. Maybe that's worth a discussion for the next callendar or we accept it as a "remaining risk" when using an addon track which normally works fine...

 

[Jim Hawley]

It's quite clear on the replay

I think the result should be changed and you should be credited with the position you finished in (4th?) the rest of us including myself should be bumped down 1 position

The fact that you had to let people past is very unfortunate, I don't see how we can compensate for that

Jim

 

[Marko Vuori]

I think this incident has two important aspects:

1) Lap counting error, and
2) blue flags that I received because of the lap counting error

Lap counting errors occur at times in racing, but are corrected by officials, when they notice them, or after a driver makes an appeal and there is evidence to prove error. I think lap counting errors should always be corrected, because the result sheet should always show what happened on track, unaffected by time keepers mistakes, right? The same way, we would correct results, if the game counted one extra lap for a guy who otherwise had finished let's say 9th, but because of the counting mistake, is declared as a winner, or if the game showed random positions for all the drivers after the race?

It's impossible to count how much groundless blue flags cost me. This part of the incident in this respect is more similar to lag/freeze/invisible incidents, where it's also impossible to define where driver had finished in case the lag/having crash because of invisibilty/freeze incident did not happen. After all, we should not even have flag rules on in races, so this should not cause troubles in the future.

So, I think it should be made a practice that lap counting mistakes are corrected afterwards.

 

[Reik Major]

Maybe Nico can answer if flag rules were enabled? At least they can't be fully enabled, because we go full speed in the pits but don't get a penalty. This should only be possible by turning off the black flag. In this case the game won't penalize you at all or in other words: "If you don't get speeding penalties in the pits you also shouldn't get disqualyfied in any other situation like ignoring blue flags. But I may be wrong, so I'll just test it when I get the next chance.

 

[Reik Major]

Marko, I understand your arguments and still have no problems to handle it like Jim suggests (if Nico is able to handle it as well).

I just would have a better feeling with it, if the miscounting had not such an impact on the race. Let me try to explain my point.

Let's say we drive our normal race until the end and when crossing the finish line the game says you have to drive one more lap, so finally you don't finish 4th but 9th. Like a real human forgot to count you one lap and takes notice of it in then end. Then it would be easy to set you back in 4th.

But in this case it happend in the middle of the race and from there on it had a big influence on the race (mostly your race). So is it realy that easy to roll things back? One could argue, if you didn't receive those blue flags you could have been involved in a battle with me or Helder and there could have been an accident taking the battling drivers out and so on and so on. It could have changed everything. But you never know what could have happend. So how fair is it to those suffering earlier from other bugs to credit you any other position than the one you finally finished?

Imagine another driver being 20 seconds in the lead and receiving a disconnect in the last lap. Even if everyone agrees that this driver would have won the race, would we really call him the winner then? Would we do so if the disconnect happend in the last turn or the last third of the race? Where to draw the line?

Of course my example is very different to your case but my simple question is:

"Which kind of bug related influence on a single driver's race allows us to correct the result after the race and which one doesn't?"

Did we ever correct a result so far? I only remember two re-races (Melbourne and Shanghai) and one restart (Watkins Glen) due to a big impact on many/all racers...

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I agree that the number of lap should be corrected, while the time loss due to blue flag must regarded as a bug/unlucky.I will look into how to solve this practically.

The blue flag warning is not possible to turn off, iow the flag rules were turned off and nothing would have happened if you did not comply.

In the debate ingame tracks vs. custom made tracks, my view is that I so much enjoy racing tracks like Spa, Interlagos and many more, and the problems are so rear, that I think we should keep on like we are doing, but stop using tracks that have proven to have problems (like Barcelona07). Only problem here is that I seem to forget the problems after a year when it is time to race the same venue again,

 

[David Turnbull]

i must admit i agree with reik on this one, there has never been a situation where the results have been changed in after the race in presto, weve had countless bugs, like poeple dropping on to the grid from a huge height and starting the race with suspension damage, weve had people disconnect from good positions in the past, i got a glitch at bahrain where a huge sign popped up in front of me ending my race, game bugs or glitches are always going to happen, what we do here sets the precident for what happens in future, is it fair to the people through 10 seasons whove suffered glitches and had to live with it? i dont think it is, so in this case id count the end result and move on hopeing it never happens again, too many variables to change points, no one knows what couldve happened.

i will say though that its very unfortunate for marko ive found myself on the end of glitches and its not nice so i can understand how he feels but its one of them things im afraid

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I just want to add that I agree with what people are saying here, that bugs etc. is part of the competition, and we need to deal with what we got. However, I see this miscount of laps as a fundamentaly different problem, as Marko sais, it does not reflect what happened in the race.

Also, all the other mentioned bugs and problems are more or less impossible to correct (LC, wrong position on starting grid, etc.) this problem on the other hand is quite simple. From my perspective there is no danger with the precendence created.

Lastly I want to add that when I was made aware of this situation my first instinct was to correct number of laps, but blue flag problems is just "too bad" for Marko.

 

[David Turnbull]

so will you be amending the points and league table or just amending the end amount of laps marko finished on?

the only reason id be against changing points and league table is that from lap 9 when marko had the problem it would be like rewriting the script for the rest of the race, we dont know what couldve happened if marko was in the lead group fighting for position with reik and helder, or if he might have made a mistake as he'd have been pushing harder in the lead group, we just dont know what might have or might not have happened so it would be like guesswork or just handing some points to marko for the sake of him having a glitch in timing.

the danger in precident i see here is that if it happens again do we rewrite an entire 2nd half to a race to give the position and points back, or do we get on with it, deal with the glitch like we always have done with the rest.

edit: didnt see your edit lol that bit confuses me.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

What I would do is to delete the race from the database, then manually correct the result-text file and then make the database read it again.

I think the "what would have happened if" is something that has to do with the blue flags, not the miscount of laps, and the blue flags Marko must take the consequences of/will not be corrected.

Lastly, I do not say: this is the way it must be, it is only my opinion. But in my head it feels very correct and not in conflict with how we have solved things in the past.

 

[Helder Filipe]

It's really bad, and i know and i believe everyone know the feeling to be out of one race or lost positions not because our own mistake but a simple bug of the game, net, pc etc etc...
I can say and i write here in our forum, when i lost Melbourne because a "pc update" i was like i dont want to play it anymore, but next day we can't resist to our passion for the game/racing in Shanghai i had connections problems what is more "regular" say, in simracing, so i was frustrated aswell but accept it happens...

The worst "bug" i remember to have was in a Touring Car Portuguese league, which i was leading the race, Donington Park, and i did the last turn, last lap and before crossing the line i disconnected believe i was so fuc**** angryyyy loool but well, about Marko's bug i dont know what should be done, but im the side that we never knows what's happen if Marko was battling side by side with me Dino David or somebody else, with the lapped cars, rain etc etc i dont know...But well, is bad for him really... If decides to get back any position for him, it's ok for me.

 

[Marko Vuori]

I just want to add that I agree with what people are saying here, that bugs etc. is part of the competition, and we need to deal with what we got. However, I see this miscount of laps as a fundamentaly different problem, as Marko sais, it does not reflect what happened in the race.

Also, all the other mentioned bugs and problems are more or less impossible to correct (LC, wrong position on starting grid, etc.) this problem on the other hand is quite simple. From my perspective there is no danger with the precendence created.

Lastly I want to add that when I was made aware of this situation my first instinct was to correct number of laps, but blue flag problems is just "too bad" for Marko.

I was about to post a long answer to Reik's post, but I think this Nico's reply pretty much crystallizes it all.

 

[Jim Hawley]

The simple fact is... Marko raced and finished with those around him, completing the same amount of laps, I feel this just cannot be ignored, he didn't finish 9th... he finished 4th...IT'S A FACT, not a maybe or a what if?

All the other stuff about blue flags and him not being able to race for the win is something we cannot correct and he'll have to live with, as we all have to with other bugs, LC's and various glitches

I see this as probably the one and only glitch were an adjustment to the results is justified

Jim

 

[David Turnbull]

i think its a little more complicated than that jim, did anyone let marko back past thinking he was unlapping himself? i know i never looked to marko as a threat when he was close behind me, i then made a mistake and marko got past and i had no inclination to catch him or try fight with him thinking i was in a diffrent race to him, i saw a gap to reik in front and a gap to dino behind and thats what i tried to hold, no thought of fighting marko for position came into my head.

 

[Gaetano Zizzo]

hello guys ......iam agreee with jim give a marko ..what is from marko..!!!all know prestogp for the top seriousness ..please continue so ...!!!!!!

 

[Jim Hawley]

i think its a little more complicated than that jim, did anyone let marko back past thinking he was unlapping himself? i know i never looked to marko as a threat when he was close behind me, i then made a mistake and marko got past and i had no inclination to catch him or try fight with him thinking i was in a diffrent race to him, i saw a gap to reik in front and a gap to dino behind and thats what i tried to hold, no thought of fighting marko for position came into my head.

I hadn't considered that David, I thought it was Marko who was giving away places, I assumed you guys all thought Marko was on the same lap

Jim

 

[Marko Vuori]

i think its a little more complicated than that jim, did anyone let marko back past thinking he was unlapping himself? i know i never looked to marko as a threat when he was close behind me, i then made a mistake and marko got past and i had no inclination to catch him or try fight with him thinking i was in a diffrent race to him, i saw a gap to reik in front and a gap to dino behind and thats what i tried to hold, no thought of fighting marko for position came into my head.

Nobody, who was in the same lap with me, let me pass during the race. I wonder how was everybody's screen showing my position as cars that were on same lap with me according to my screen (actually lapped cars) gave me way like they think I'm lapping them. Also you David, made many mistakes when I was behind you, and even after I had passed you (after your mistake in lap 33), like you were trying to challenge me? Why do this, if you thought I was one lap behind? I also had to give up overtaking Reik once, because I knew I would immediately get blue flags, if tried that.

 

[David Turnbull]

thats cool marko, thats why i added a question mark to the end of the sentence as i didnt know if anyone did let you past, if no one did then thats sorted.

your right i did make many mistakes, and when you got past on lap 33 it made no odds to me as i didnt see it as a position lost, once you were past i dont remember trying to fight you, i may have at times caught you up and looked to pass but thats usually what happens when you come across a car you think youve lapped.