SEASON 10 Race 7 BAHRAIN - Sean's INCIDENT REPORT

[Steeve Fournier]

Whats going on here? Just because i miss the race, that doesn't mean you have to do so many incidents!!

I'm sure you are all gentlemen enough to solve it all in a respectfull way! But oh dear, there was a lot of action at bahrain! I wil read race report tonight!

Steeve

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

1st incident with Richard I think touches rear when I had lapped him into t1. I checked replay and can see you slid and got braking slightly wrong. Np dude but way to avoid this was just to give me a little more space in braking zone its always easier with a bit more room.

Marko T1 incident he touches rear mid corner well after braking zone costing me 2 positions. Marko should have really giving place back I think as he said himself he did intend to anyway. From my point of view I check mirrors on straight see Marko is couple cars lengths back so intend to take t1 how I want, I make slight mistake but I don't vary from my racing line to much as Marko wasn't close enough to attempt to out brake etc and 2 bumps in my side from nowhere is how it looked and felt for me.
Way to solve is easy car behind must try and not hit car ahead as Marko says he is aware ive made slight mistake t1 but I don't stray far from my racing line and my car doesn't become invisible, he has every right to attack me or whatever there but he can easily do this without touching my car.
You say you think the space you tried to fit in wasn't impossible Marko and you believe that its my fault and I should have been aware your car might have been there lol that's a peach you cant be serious if look at your video I don't know where else you could go except into me unless you slow, Im taking the corner and its a ever decreasing gap.
I think if I was in your situation I wouldn't have touched car ahead but also if I did I would have let by and apologised after race and here on forums simples .

Incident with Reik coming up to t3 Marko and Helder were ahead after t1 incident with Marko and I was unsure if Marko was going to let me passed or not, so into t3 braking zone I decide to be cautious braking and Reik was still behind when checked mirror so was trying to take t3 normal racing line to possibly get run on him(<Helder) just didn't expect Reik to be on inside there sos dude.
If Reik had made it clear staying inside on straight I might have expected him there and I would have left room but was also abit of a unique situation there with everything that happened and cant blame him for taking advantage of my pace at that turn, it felt like same as other for me. I just turn in for corner and bump wasn't expecting anyone there. Np Reik I know you feel sorry and obviously not feeling the contact makes a difference to I assume you would have let by if did as you have in past .

Following corners ..... lol, As approaching downhill fast braking was so close to Reik I was hoping he would stay right to defend as I was aiming to brake down outside long but with Reik returning to outside I had to go inside and stamped on brake as I would have run into Reik but unfortunately I couldn't slow enough and ran into Markos rear extremely sos Marko don't think it was nasty intentions or anything, I would be offended my 1st aim is to never to even touch another car in sim racing , I just made a big mistake, also no need to be frightened Reik I atleast I thought I had it under control. I obviously didn't let Marko back in front as was thinking I let him back passed to let me back lol or what .

Incident with Dino I think we might have been ok without the slide but I also could have left you slight more room I think being harder on myself np Dino. To avoid this is easy n we already answered it.

Final thoughts if im honest I think this is the biggest incident report ive seen here ever and personally my own is bigger than my whole seasons worth I think as a group we need to concentrate more on what we used to like trying to avoid contact as much as we can with any car we all have what it takes to race clean and giving each other enough space enough to do so obviously at times people make mistakes but when this happens I thinks its important to acknowledge what happens apologise for mistakes and we learn from it, sometimes a lot of incidents are similar and we should be knowledgeable to have idea what to do it most given situations.
The f3000 was suppose to also make this easier but I think its more a forgiving car and the mmgf1 car had a little more respect to control and avoid anything as it would most likely end your race. We maybe lost this respect a little with the f3000.

I also think we need to make rules clearer on letting someone by if contact is made during the pass and gaining position etc.
I was under the impression that if we impede another driving while making a overtaking move we would give place back, just we need to come to some agreement so everyone is on same page I think because thinking of rule myself i'm unclear myself what it said exactly but something like if you know you make mistake costs someone else position we let guy past again or if uncertain we carry on which in itself is a bit vague. Id prefer one way or other probably fairest way.

(EDIT ) post just got longer

Added a video with everything I noticed in race some are minor and no contacts but theres a lot we can improve on and but as im busy with work atm I maybe not back on over weekend, id like everyone to comment when they can on what they think of the passing moves played out against me in this race to, as in fair or not fair and what you would have done in the situation. I think if was me in the other position I don't think id have made contact or even attempt pass with certain 1s and if I had im pretty sure id have let other guy back passed if I did, as id find it hard to be proud or ok with carrying on ahead having gained from a mistake I have made and then bumped a car like as a buffer and continue gaining that position. Also I had idea if some don't feel contacts etc you can raise ffb for that setting alone if to low you may not feel anything, I use 80% and if feels pretty ruff if hit.

Also what people think in general about if going to attempt to outbrake someone, I think its a guide that if your not along side a car with atleast front wing in line with the cars ahead rear its a near impossible task to outbrake someone who is wider on racing line and is braking as late as they can, its just physics. You may be able to outbrake someone from far back who sees you diving and then gets themselves out the way or bumped if unaware but this isn't a clean fair pass and not very like what we or I have come to expect with PrestoGP.

 

[David Turnbull]

in reply to sean asking for opinions......

these views are in order from the video.

incident 1 - richard hitting sean at turn 1 while being lapped.

richard done the right thing by moving over on the straight but then undone his good work by being far too close and having to slam on brakes which caused a slide into sean, this was near unforgivable in my opinion and going by other reports wasnt the only problem caused by being too close and not in control of the car.

incident 2 - sean lapping kurt.

kurt really should be more aware that sean is the leader of the race and by making sean take the inside line at the last turn he is in effect slowing sean down considerably, not only this but very nearly looses control under brakin and comes so close to contact with seans car.

incident 3 - marko attacking into t1

marko weaves back and forward trying to unsettle sean, sean carries on his normal line never leaving the racing line, marko dives over the kerb in effect cutting the corner and makes contact with seans rear, small incident but a precursor for what followed.

incident 4 - marko hitting sean t1

sean doesnt even try and go defensive here as marko is too far back to even attempt a pass, sean doesnt leave the racing line for t1 by anything more than a few inches and marko dives again over the kerb and into seans rear wheel in effect half spinning him then straightening him by the second hit, during this sean looses his lead that he had for 3/4 of the race. marko should stop diving into attempted overtakes, that was a few times in the race and he'd already taken me out in the first practise start at the same place.

incident 5 - reik hitting sean

as already said sean is taking it cautious behind 2 cars fighting for position, reik brakes late and trys to pull out from behind sean clipping his rear wheel in the process, reik then skips over the kerb into seans side making him slide and go off the racing line and in effect loose yet another place, reik really shouldve had let sean regain the position here as it certainly wasnt seans actions that caused the collisions.

incident 6 - sean hitting marko

i can see how this happened and even though it looks nasty i think everyone in presto gp past and present knows sean is NOT a dirty driver and is very rarely involved in incidents, this happened following reik very closely, on the start of the downhill to the hairpin reik is furthest right he can be without being off track, he then jumps across to the other side to his braking point, sean is obviously caught out thinking reik would stay right and sean would go left and brake down the outside, unfortunatly its a fast bit of track and margins were slim.

incident 7 - dino hitting sean

dino dives from a long way back, looses control and slams into the side of sean, taking him off the racing line and wide, dino then drives on gaining a position when he really shouldve waited for sean to regain his.

conclusions

there was a lot of battleing for positions and alot of incidents that shouldnt have happened, the thing that shocked me most is the lack of presto gentlemans rule put into practise, i know reik has said he didnt feel contact and thats fair enough he cant be expected to hold his race up when he thinks hes done nothign wrong ive been here too, you dont feel the contact through the wheel so you drive on only to realise later that youve actually hit someone, but...... i dont feel the same can be said about the rest, this definatly isnt the normal presto race, far too many incident (maybe more if id still been in the race at that point ), really was hard watching, especially as i watched a friend be battered from pillar to post like he was some sort of braking buffer, i really dont think sean recieved the respect he deserved from the lappers either.

as usual these my own opinions, nothing is ment to offend.

 

[Steeve Fournier]

I will give my opinion based on David's answer.

in reply to sean asking for opinions......

these views are in order from the video.

incident 1 - richard hitting sean at turn 1 while being lapped.

richard done the right thing by moving over on the straight but then undone his good work by being far too close and having to slam on brakes which caused a slide into sean, this was near unforgivable in my opinion and going by other reports wasnt the only problem caused by being too close and not in control of the car.

I have to agree this one.

incident 2 - sean lapping kurt.

kurt really should be more aware that sean is the leader of the race and by making sean take the inside line at the last turn he is in effect slowing sean down considerably, not only this but very nearly looses control under brakin and comes so close to contact with seans car.

I don't agree with David here. My point is we had, in previous races, told the lappers to keep and stay on their racing line to avoid unpredictable moves, and Kurt did that "almost" perfectly. Only thing done wrong is he brakes a bit too far, he should make it safer at the braking point for Sean.

incident 3 - marko attacking into t1

marko weaves back and forward trying to unsettle sean, sean carries on his normal line never leaving the racing line, marko dives over the kerb in effect cutting the corner and makes contact with seans rear, small incident but a precursor for what followed.

incident 4 - marko hitting sean t1

sean doesnt even try and go defensive here as marko is too far back to even attempt a pass, sean doesnt leave the racing line for t1 by anything more than a few inches and marko dives again over the kerb and into seans rear wheel in effect half spinning him then straightening him by the second hit, during this sean looses his lead that he had for 3/4 of the race. marko should stop diving into attempted overtakes, that was a few times in the race and he'd already taken me out in the first practise start at the same place.

I think Marko should let Sean regain his position.

incident 5 - reik hitting sean

as already said sean is taking it cautious behind 2 cars fighting for position, reik brakes late and trys to pull out from behind sean clipping his rear wheel in the process, reik then skips over the kerb into seans side making him slide and go off the racing line and in effect loose yet another place, reik really shouldve had let sean regain the position here as it certainly wasnt seans actions that caused the collisions.

I agree with David.

incident 6 - sean hitting marko

i can see how this happened and even though it looks nasty i think everyone in presto gp past and present knows sean is NOT a dirty driver and is very rarely involved in incidents, this happened following reik very closely, on the start of the downhill to the hairpin reik is furthest right he can be without being off track, he then jumps across to the other side to his braking point, sean is obviously caught out thinking reik would stay right and sean would go left and brake down the outside, unfortunatly its a fast bit of track and margins were slim.

I also think that was not intentional move by Sean. He really got caught by surprise and had to move quickly to the right, and that move makes him brake a few meters later than normal, and offline too where there is less grip. But after all that happened in previous laps/corners, i can imagine Sean had some steam blowing out his head at that point, anyway, i would if i was him!

incident 7 - dino hitting sean

dino dives from a long way back, looses control and slams into the side of sean, taking him off the racing line and wide, dino then drives on gaining a position when he really shouldve waited for sean to regain his.

I agree this one.

So there you have my feeback Sean. This is my opinion and i'm very objective as i was not part of the race.

Like David said, thats tough to watch, i was very surprise wednesday night to read this MUCH TOO BIG incident report! That's not the PrestoGP i know.... even if i'm new.

Steeve

 

[Reik Major]

Incident with Reik coming up to t3 Marko and Helder were ahead after t1 incident with Marko and I was unsure if Marko was going to let me passed or not, so into t3 braking zone I decide to be cautious braking and Reik was still behind when checked mirror so was trying to take t3 normal racing line to possibly get run on him(<Helder) just didn't expect Reik to be on inside there sos dude.
If Reik had made it clear staying inside on straight I might have expected him there and I would have left room but was also abit of a unique situation there with everything that happened and cant blame him for taking advantage of my pace at that turn, it felt like same as other for me. I just turn in for corner and bump wasn't expecting anyone there. Np Reik I know you feel sorry and obviously not feeling the contact makes a difference to I assume you would have let by if did as you have in past .

Thank you for accepting my apologies!

incident 5 - reik hitting sean

as already said sean is taking it cautious behind 2 cars fighting for position, reik brakes late and trys to pull out from behind sean clipping his rear wheel in the process, reik then skips over the kerb into seans side making him slide and go off the racing line and in effect loose yet another place, reik really shouldve had let sean regain the position here as it certainly wasnt seans actions that caused the collisions.

From reading your observation it sounds like I simply drove Sean off the line when daring a tough deep dive in on the inside. But reality is different.

In the first place I didn't aim for a move on Sean there as I wasn't able to drive next to him on the straight (to initiate a common out braking move).

When we enter Sean is slower than I expect him to be. I shall add here that we (the top 5) were running soooo close all the race so following very close and giving my best through all the corners was essential to even stay close with a driver in front. So now Sean suddenly is a bit slower, so I could either brake quickly or go for a different line. I had already finished braking and started entering the corner feeling to have good grip. So my initial reaction was to turn to the inside line as there still was enough room. In this process I very slightly taped Seans rear but immediately noticed it did no harm at all so I held the inside line. At this place I know that touching the inside curb is not unsettling my car at this low speed so I did without a problem.

The second touch I didn't notice anymore as my car didn't respond like that but drove a nice tight inside line. So I knew we had that small touch when entering the corner but also knowing it didn't realy harm I finally felt it was some kind of a clean overtake. It would have been a different story if I jumped over the inside curb and got the car settled by leaning on Senas car. But that's not the way we drove through the corner.

Btw, I agree that this must have taken Sean by surprise. But in my eyes surprinsing the one I am chasing is also part of racing and ok as long as I'm able to hold my line after immediately showing up on a side. Otherwise I could type in the chat whilest going down the long straight: "I'm going to overtake you on your right side. Is that ok for you?" Sorry for the sarcasm at this place. Please don't take it too hard.

PS:
In general we must give in that we are so close to the edge now that the line between "clean" and "not clean anymore" is so thin that it can happen to have such close calls. The problem is that if we would give ourselfs too big safety margins we wouldn't even get into a positon to attack anymore. So it's tough to balance safety and risk the right way all the time. And the problem could be, if we head too much towards safety, we won't see any fights soon.

 

[David Turnbull]

i think we actually do agree on what ive called incident 2 steeve, obviously this wasnt an incident and wasnt reported so its not a whole big deal, i know exactly what you mean steeve and kurt very nearly did execute the lapping procedure perfectly, but... in my opinion there is nothing to gain by fighting the lapping car into the braking zone, a small lift or braking early would allow sean past before the braking zone and allow him to continue on the racing line, all that happened with this was kurt broke deep and went wide, sean went inside so compromised his corner speed making him slower all along the straight, my conclusion is a small lift before braking zone into the last corner wouldve allowed kurt to brake normally and not run wide and would allow sean to carry on at normal pace.

but anyhoo no harm done and kurt did well considering he jumped from his bed onto the race respect kurt, pour yourself a glenfiddich

 

[David Turnbull]

ive only gave my opinions on what i see in the replay and video reik , what i see is you skip over the kerb and only seans car keeps you on the inside line otherwise youd have been in the middle of the track, i dont see the gap either that you were aiming for, when seans car is turning the tiny gap that could be there is quickly disappearing, by the time your on the kerb the gap that may have been there is gone hence the contact.

anyhoo like i said in my conclusions its understandable you drove on, if you dont feel the contact you dont know theres been an incident and you carry on as you would normally, thats not a critisism of you at all, id do and have done the very same thing if i didnt feel anything to tell me.

edit: i think your sarcasm is used wrong here reik you didnt hold your line when appearing at seans side and you just stated you didnt set out to overtake sean so it was as much a surprise to you as to sean, and sean may have been slightly surprised to have a car hit him twice in the same corner, but next time on the straight you could type "i will be coming to hit you twice at the next turn and wont be waiting is that ok for you?"

 

[Marko Vuori]

Just to clarify to all... This is a video showing the 40 seconds of action we are talking about. The first hit and the second hit of me and Sean were only separated by 35 seconds.

Marko T1 incident he touches rear mid corner well after braking zone costing me 2 positions. Marko should have really giving place back I think as he said himself he did intend to anyway. From my point of view I check mirrors on straight see Marko is couple cars lengths back so intend to take t1 how I want, I make slight mistake but I don't vary from my racing line to much as Marko wasn't close enough to attempt to out brake etc and 2 bumps in my side from nowhere is how it looked and felt for me.
Way to solve is easy car behind must try and not hit car ahead as Marko says he is aware ive made slight mistake t1 but I don't stray far from my racing line and my car doesn't become invisible, he has every right to attack me or whatever there but he can easily do this without touching my car.
You say you think the space you tried to fit in wasn't impossible Marko and you believe that its my fault and I should have been aware your car might have been there lol that's a peach you cant be serious if look at your video I don't know where else you could go except into me unless you slow, Im taking the corner and its a ever decreasing gap.
I think if I was in your situation I wouldn't have touched car ahead but also if I did I would have let by and apologised after race and here on forums simples .

After the race I apologized about the first touch. You then hinted with angry tone that the overtaking move was initiated 2-3 car lengths behind and that you felt like the win being "robbed" from you because of that incident. I then said that I thought I had done nothing wrong there. I then asked about the second hit in sector 2, because at that time I was not sure (although I had a presumption) who had hit me 35 seconds after the first hit. As far as I can remember you did not answer anything to this, and you did not say a word about the second hit in the post race chat. You did not apology about it either. Can you somehow explain why you were so angrily talking about the first hit, and failed to mention anything about the second hit in the post race chat, even apologizing making me lose around 4 seconds and my fair shot to a race victory?


I wonder why did the first hit even happen in the first place. I was well behind you at the start of the braking (~25m, 0.3-0.4 sec) and I was not planning to try overtaking from there. Also my braking point and apex speed were normal. So you can't really say I was "diving", can you? I first initiated the overtaking move, when I saw that you will go wide there (to clarify: there was one car width of tarmac plus curbs free to be used on the inside of your car). This was enough to make me try and go taking advantage of the space given. You then slowed down a lot (your apex speed 61 km/h is lower than normal) and turned sharper than I had expected. This of course made the room where I was heading to become smaller than I had assessed, which then leads to the contact. I think this incident could have been avoided had I not tried to use the room on your inside, or if you after initially going wide, had not turned sharp and tried to go back to the normal racing line. This is not to accuse anybody, just to analyze why the contact happened.

Following corners ..... lol, As approaching downhill fast braking was so close to Reik I was hoping he would stay right to defend as I was aiming to brake down outside long but with Reik returning to outside I had to go inside and stamped on brake as I would have run into Reik but unfortunately I couldn't slow enough and ran into Markos rear extremely sos Marko don't think it was nasty intentions or anything, I would be offended my 1st aim is to never to even touch another car in sim racing , I just made a big mistake, also no need to be frightened Reik I atleast I thought I had it under control. I obviously didn't let Marko back in front as was thinking I let him back passed to let me back lol or what .

In the second hit the braking seems to be shallow, not really trying to stop the car as effectively as possible, wheels locked, etc. I also don't see steering movements with which you tried to avoid contact (typically forcefully trying to steer the car towards the apex to avoid contact to the last moment). Because of the hit I lost around 4 seconds, which destroyed my chance of fighting for the race win, and its effect on my race was probably several positions. I also find it awkward that you mentioned nothing about this incident in the post race chat (even though I asked who it was hitting me at sector 2), and were angrily talking about the first hit.

I also think we need to make rules clearer on letting someone by if contact is made during the pass and gaining position etc.
I was under the impression that if we impede another driving while making a overtaking move we would give place back, just we need to come to some agreement so everyone is on same page I think because thinking of rule myself i'm unclear myself what it said exactly but something like if you know you make mistake costs someone else position we let guy past again or if uncertain we carry on which in itself is a bit vague. Id prefer one way or other probably fairest way.

I agree that one important thing to learn from our incident is really how/when to compensate incidents to other drivers while racing. My opinion is that you should let a driver make a pass in the next safe place, if you made an unfair pass. However, it's often very difficult to judge these things while racing.

 

[Marko Vuori]

incident 3 - marko attacking into t1

marko weaves back and forward trying to unsettle sean, sean carries on his normal line never leaving the racing line, marko dives over the kerb in effect cutting the corner...

Cutting the corner?

incident 4 - marko hitting sean t1

sean doesnt even try and go defensive here as marko is too far back to even attempt a pass, sean doesnt leave the racing line for t1 by anything more than a few inches and marko dives again over the kerb...

Diving again over the kerb? Sean leaving racing line for T1 by anything more than a few inches?

... and into seans rear wheel in effect half spinning him then straightening him by the second hit, during this sean looses his lead that he had for 3/4 of the race. marko should stop diving into attempted overtakes, that was a few times in the race...

Could you tell me when in the race did i miss my braking point, had excessive speed at apex and was not able to maintain safe driving line for two cars to be able to make a corner (=dive)?

and he'd already taken me out in the first practise start at the same place.

You mean this one?

Was it me taking you out or you driving on my side?

 

[Richard Hill]

I admit the hit with Sean is unforgivable but if I didn't react I would have gone straight into the back of him and didn't want to have a crash like that. In hindsight I should have gone left instead of right

 

[David Turnbull]

marko are you blind?

your first screenshot shows you jump the kerb into seans rear with no room to overtake, why are you still defending this. (on my replay your wheels are outside the line)

your second screenshot shows you didnt learn from the first and tried again with no room to overtake.

your video is from your perspective, heres mine......

nudging me off the track because yet again your trying to win from first corners, it was a practise start for gods sake.

Could you tell me when in the race did i miss my braking point, had excessive speed at apex and was not able to maintain safe driving line for two cars to be able to make a corner (=dive)?

both screenshots you posted and the practise start 1, is that enough or will i go find some more?

your fair shot of victory ended when you took seans from him.

EDIT: it could be replays thats causing me to think things have happened worse than they are but most videos shows roughly the same thing, if its just my replay that shows things from a worse perspective then ill bow out and say no more as obviously im watching things that didnt quite happen.

 

[Marko Vuori]

your first screenshot shows you jump the kerb into seans rear with no room to overtake, why are you still defending this. (on my replay your wheels are outside the line)

You said I cutted in that corner. Now my still shot and Sean's video show that I have at least two wheels on white line all the time (= no cut). Can you show us a still photo from your replay that also proves us that you have watched and investigated this situation before giving these statements (=accusing me of cutting a corner)? The move I make is really normal (=trying to catch the inside line, after braking on the outside). Also the touch is very light, and Sean did not lose any time there. So, I defend this move because it's really basic racing and is no hazard to anyone's safety.

your second screenshot shows you didnt learn from the first and tried again with no room to overtake.

Well, somebody could interpret that I did learn something from lap 30, as on lap 31 I got closer to Sean, and still pretty safely? Do you consider little over one cars width plus curbs "no room to overtake"? Can you also explain why in this corner missing the apex by one cars width is "...doesnt leave the racing line for t1 by anything more than a few inches"?

your video is from your perspective, heres mine......

Did you notice that in this practice start there are many pairs of cars that enter T1 side-by-side? From all these cars, who are taking the inside line in that corner, you are the car taking the line closest to the left side of the track, leaving least space for the other car on your left side. For example Reik and Helder (both of whom I respect a lot as simracers) make the corner side-by-side without any trouble, even though Reik on the left actually gives a little less room for Helder on his right side, than what I gave to you. So, it could be argued that we touch because your line is too much on the left (=not in line with other PrestoGP drivers) for this situation?

nudging me off the track because yet again your trying to win from first corners, it was a practise start for gods sake.

You saying "yet again" refers to me "trying to win from first corners" sometime before and others' safety being jeopardized because of that. So, when was this?

 

[David Turnbull]

i said i was going to bow out of this because replays look diffrent and i maybe seeing things that arent on others screens, but ill try answer your replys....

considering it was me who made seans video and me who made my own i think i can safely say yes, ive watched it a few times, im still under the impression your diving into attempted overtakes when there is no space, if there was space you wouldnt be making contact with cars.

i'll get a screenshot later of the angle i watched the replay from when i saw at least 3 of your wheels off the track, i'll add soon as i find time to look through it again.

edit: first part of the video is the angle i watched at the time, second part is showing marko being correct, he didnt cut the track, so i'll apologise for that but will still stick to the word "dive".

at no time in any of your two failed overtakes was there room that you could fit a car safely, this is proven by the fact you hit sean twice in successive attempts, first time shouldve been enough to consider not making that attempt again but 2nd time you were actually further back and attempted it.

regards our own incident at turn 1 in the practise start, are you being serious that i left you no room? theres enough room for your car and another to your left, you suddenly jump towards me when your tryin to make your line easier for turn 2.

p.s i do understand that we are seeing slightly diffrent on the replays, your video and my video of t1 practise start proves that, i will admit on your video it looks like we get very close and i loose out, but on my video it looks like you cut over and nudge me offline.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

My objective view is that everybody makes a mistake each, but Sean is the one with the best reason to be disappointed (as he was leading the race).

Marko is the first to make a mistake, but at the same time he was the only one attempting to allow the other car to repass.

Then we have Reik who also should have waited, but as he was unaware it is not much more to say than "try to be more carefull and aware"

Sean's mistake was the "worst" and he should have waited, but one can understand that he didn't due to what had just happened.

Dino had the least obvious fault, but in my opinion should still have waited.

In sum I find it hard to point a finger on a spesific driver, but I see two constructive discussions (that have more or less already been mentioned by others):
-where you want to place the safety/competitivenes index in the front, iow syncronise yourself.
-at what point should you decide to wait, and to what lengths should you go to to allow the other car to overtake you.

Also, I see no wrong-doing from any car that was lapped in Sean's video. The aim of a lapped car is 3-folded:
-To make it happen predictably/safely
-To minimise the sum (lapping car + lapped car) of time loss
-To treat everybody with the same intentions

I think Steeve has an objective view on the matter, and I agree 100% with all his answers. David I do not feel is objective. One cannot look for evidence that fits your arguements if you wish to be objective, you need to consider both sides equally and without any emotions. If Marko had a friend equal to you he would probably have argued that Marko did everything within reason to allow Sean back past after doing an honest minor mistake while Sean's accidental hit was clearly revenge. He would also point out that Marko was the only one of the 4 that made an effort to wait after the failed attept to pass.

 

[Marko Vuori]

I did a little study on Sean and mine apex speeds at Bahrain T1. Here are the results. Hopefully this helps to analyze our crash at T1.

Apex speeds (=lowest speed in the corner), km/h

Lap #...................... Sean...................................... Marko
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
27............................61 (misses apex).....................66
28............................63..........................................70
29............................65 (side-by-side)......................69 (side-by-side)
30............................59 (s-b-s)................................70 (s-b-s, dropped to 59 after apex at touch)
31............................61 (before hit, misses apex)...64 (before hit)
32............................67 (s-b-s)................................70
33............................61 (s-b-s)................................71
34............................66 (s-b-s)................................66 (s-b-s)
35............................62..........................................60 (s-b-s)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average................... 62.8.......................................67.3
avg (uninterfered).......62.5.......................................69.3


avg (uninterfered)=the average of those laps that are not interfered by battling other cars.
There was a very light touch on lap 30, and a heavier touch on lap 31.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Its not really a argument of what's happened this race, its more how we race in future as a guide for everyone is what I want out of this

I don't think we need to have rubbing tires or small bumps etc to make a pass even at the front of the grid and don't think the safety margin applied would kill racing, I'm not sure what you mean Reik with we wouldn't see any passing at all if had a good enough safety margin, do you thinks its impossible to pass at front of grid without some kind of uncontrolled contact ? we at least have to be aiming to have no contact right ? this best case scenario for all of us not forgetting there maybe some lag still to which leads to some feeling it worse than others, or not in exactly same place on each pc etc to so giving each other space is for everyone. If we race with thinking that its ok to have bumps n taps in passing moves its recipe for disaster and Im all for being surprised by a pass and maneuver its what racings all about but as long as the surprise is a 'wow there Reik by nice sneaky lol' and not 'wow there's Reik hit my car and passed lol'. sos to use u as example Reik but I think we get the funnier side to
I think what we have always raced with prestogp has been to be fair and clean and gentlemen drivers haven't we not anyway ? Ive had many a great race coming through field after my usual mistakes lol and most of the time no contact with them or with me and some great clean racing so don't see why it cant happen at the front to and have less minor incidents like everyone else's and like my massive 1

As for after the race chat Marko I said how far back were you when you hit me t1 ? as it was a complete surprise for me, you said in 2nd part of turn I said no on the straight I thought u were a few car lengths you said I think I didn't do anything wrong, I think I said lol and then robbed, cyas on forums, grats to podium and I left that's all I seen in chat hence why I left so soon didn't want to delve further in that conversation right at that time also I think its more a jokingly tone from me as usual If you know me by now.

Can you see Marko that in you video when I go inside to brake I lock up and im braking harder than usual even trying putting into 1st gear to slow there I cant believe you think this is on purpose lol I was only thinking of trying to get close down outside to Reik at that part of the track and you were just in wrong place at wrong time after my massive mistake in realising im to close to Reik and braking zone and normal situation there after I obviously would let you by. We even still had some good racing after that lol so don't know where your coming from I wouldnt even hit a ai driver on purpose , also you said you intended to let me by anyway once safe place so not sure if I cost you chance of lead anyway there but as I said im really sorry it happened but I wasn't even thinking about you there until sliding towards you.

For the lapping in vid non incidents, I was more on about with Kurt its fine even though not ideal line for both of us gives Kurt especially poor exit onto straight slight lift and you could have followed me through keeping good line and losing less time and then with Nico and Vale you leave the track which I never like to see I know you guys are fighting and it must be a shock me coming behind but it pains me to see people leaving the track in order to let me by I think you guys could have thought id been coming and possible prepared to go down inside or outside, obviously difficult to balance racing, checking mirrors ,preparing to lap and being surprised, but something if different it was not affecting you guys race as much as it did and for me driving past a car that has left track is also unsettling as you never know what can happen but this is deffo the most difficult lapping scenario.

As I said at start im only thinking of future of what mindset we race with so we are on all racing on same page. id prefer to race with presto's philosophy and rules which have served us well in the past it along with no penalties and our self policing in races and incident threads has made simracing here amazing fun and enjoyable place to be. The rd club rules are all i can see on presto gp site now even though they are quite clear on what to do also, there was more to Prestos originally.

Edit: Im not quite sure how any of the apex speed info helps also will be very inaccurate from replay, it obviously show how you can be close t1 anyway but im not sure how this affects the contact as im obviously about 20/30 mph then Marko. I already see it as resolved no ? you said you were going to let me by just it didn't look like it in race and you apologised after race although I never seen it in chat and that is the correct thing to do, I was going by your initial incident report where you think it was that I should have been able to leave space. Also if honest I also think the small straight up to t3 was ideal opportunity to let me by I think Helder getting passed to affected your decision where in reality it shouldn't have i've had people yielding 2 places because the contact cost me and another guy has got ahead to, its unfortunate situation buts its what we do if found in it.

 

[Marko Vuori]

edit: first part of the video is the angle i watched at the time, second part is showing marko being correct, he didnt cut the track, so i'll apologise for that but will still stick to the word "dive".

Well, take a look at this small sample of data...

I did a little study on Sean and mine apex speeds at Bahrain T1. Here are the results. Hopefully this helps to analyze our crash at T1.

Apex speeds (=lowest speed in the corner), km/h

Lap #...................... Sean...................................... Marko
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
27............................61 (misses apex).....................66
28............................63..........................................70
29............................65 (side-by-side)......................69 (side-by-side)
30............................59 (s-b-s)................................70 (s-b-s, dropped to 59 after apex at touch)
31............................61 (before hit, misses apex)...64 (before hit)
32............................67 (s-b-s)................................70
33............................61 (s-b-s)................................71
34............................66 (s-b-s)................................66 (s-b-s)
35............................62..........................................60 (s-b-s)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Average................... 62.8.......................................67.3
avg (uninterfered).......62.5.......................................69.3


avg (uninterfered)=the average of those laps that are not interfered by battling other cars.
There was a very light touch on lap 30, and a heavier touch on lap 31.

Sean and I were both driving with one stop strategy and these laps are from the seconds stint, so they are pretty comparable as our tyres and fuel loads are pretty same. When you look at the apex speeds you can see that Sean and I had surprisingly different apex speeds in general. This is probably mostly due to different styles of driving in that particular corner. Sean had tendency to brake more and turn sharper, whereas I tried to maintain more speed through the corner. You can also see that on laps 30 and 31, where you said I was diving, my apex speeds are normal (on lap 30) or lower than normal (on lap 31). On the other hand, Sean's apex speeds are pretty low on laps 30 and 31. Did you ever consider this as a contributing factor?

at no time in any of your two failed overtakes was there room that you could fit a car safely, this is proven by the fact you hit sean twice in successive attempts, first time shouldve been enough to consider not making that attempt again but 2nd time you were actually further back and attempted it.

You did not yet answer my question about if you consider a bit more than one cars width plus curbs as "no room to overtake"? I already said that I did not intend to overtake on lap 31, before I saw that Sean will go wide there. So, I went to the gap as it appeared and because of different styles of driving and other contributing factors, we had a slight touch.

regards our own incident at turn 1 in the practise start, are you being serious that i left you no room? theres enough room for your car and another to your left, you suddenly jump towards me when your tryin to make your line easier for turn 2.

I never said that you did not leave me room, I said you left me less room than any other PrestoGP driver, who had the inside line for T1 in that particular practice start. By the way, I am sorry for this hit. I was not aware of it before you mentioned it in this thread I think.

 

[David Turnbull]

i didnt consider apex speed marko for the reason that it makes no diffrence, your apex speed should adjust accordingly to the situation, if you look at it like this your apex speed didnt change much from a normal lap to when you had a car directly in front of you, to me that shows the small margins you were working under at turn 1 more than anything else, you kept up a constant(ish) which is fair enough but when sean was directly in front id have considered lowering apex speed as sean is very close in front and the gap thats there only decreases as sean takes the turn and your also stating you didnt attempt to overtake the lap before, so why keep up the same apex speed and try the same thing when it didnt work out the first time.

the second part of your question is no, in that situation i dont consider that to be enough room to attempt to get along side sean, if sean had went really wide then maybe but he was hardly off the line at all and you were further back, so by the time you got to the kerb sean had already started exit and the gap had closed, as it did the lap before, so better idea would be to hang with sean and use t3 as the overtaking point, i noticed you used t3 once or twice to overtake so seeing as youd tried t1 and it didnt happen then waiting wouldve been best to avoid contact.


in reply to our incident in pstart, like i said earlier i can see why it happened, to you it looks like i move over, to me it looks like you move over, maybe both of us moved over? we'll call it quits at that with that one it was a bad example to bring up at the time but at least we cleared it up

 

[Marko Vuori]

i didnt consider apex speed marko for the reason that it makes no diffrence, your apex speed should adjust accordingly to the situation, if you look at it like this your apex speed didnt change much from a normal lap to when you had a car directly in front of you, to me that shows the small margins you were working under at turn 1 more than anything else, you kept up a constant(ish) which is fair enough but when sean was directly in front id have considered lowering apex speed as sean is very close in front and the gap thats there only decreases as sean takes the turn and your also stating you didnt attempt to overtake the lap before, so why keep up the same apex speed and try the same thing when it didnt work out the first time.

I made a new video yet again showing what experience I had from Sean's driving line at the time I made the attempt to initiate the overtake in lap 31.

I had catched Sean on lap 29, and tried to overtake for the first time then. On lap 29 Sean leaves the inside open, and I think I had a good reason to believe he would follow the same driving line on lap 31, after he went wide (one car width wide is not just a little, it's considerably). Instead, Sean moved to shut the inside line when I was already there. I was also not intending to finalize the overtaking in T1, but to get to more advantageous position for accelerating for the next straight, in the same way as I did on lap 29. When watching the video and comparing it to apex speed data, you can actually see, that on the laps 30 and 31, when we had touch with Sean, both are laps where Sean shut the inside line and had exceptionally slow apex speed. On lap 31, my apex speed was my 2nd lowest in the 9 lap sample, and clearly lower than my average apex speed, which proves that I did actually lower my apex speed considerably. On lap 30, my apex speed is normal as I expect Sean to leave inside open, like he did on lap 29, instead he closes it, and I react by lowering my speed, so that the touch is really light, and does not slow us down much at all.

the second part of your question is no, in that situation i dont consider that to be enough room to attempt to get along side sean, if sean had went really wide then maybe but he was hardly off the line at all and you were further back, so by the time you got to the kerb sean had already started exit and the gap had closed, as it did the lap before, so better idea would be to hang with sean and use t3 as the overtaking point, i noticed you used t3 once or twice to overtake so seeing as youd tried t1 and it didnt happen then waiting wouldve been best to avoid contact.

Again, watch the video, and see that I had a good reason to believe that the inside was a place to go on lap 31. As I have already shown with still shots and videos, Sean missed racing line by over one car width, which is not "hardly off the line" like you say. Also, my point at T1 on lap 31 was to get alongside Sean, and finalize the overtaking in braking for T3, like you suggest. Turn 1 at Bahrain is not really a place where you can finalize overtaking, but it's a very common place to start it, as you can see if you check the replay of the race.

David, from now on, if you throw these accusations (somebody cutting corners, somebody diving in unfair overtaking moves) in the air, you have to prove your point with videos and still shots before you say anything. I find it disturbing that in your first post you tried to make me look like unfair and dangerous driver, which clearly is not the case. Alone from this season, I have had a lot of very close combat on track with several drivers (with Helder probably kilometres of side by side action by now) without hits, and I'm sure they feel that I'm a safe driver to race with. It took me a lot of time to show that your accusations are not based on anything real, and that time could have been used for something much more productive too. On the other hand, if such accusations are thrown, I cannot just let them influence on the image people have about my driving.

 

[David Turnbull]

obviously this isnt working, ive gave my opinions and youve gave yours, i dont see your point you dont see mine, better just letting someone else deal with it, i think you dived twice, you dont, something is wrong here, we arent on the same wavelength.

regards the last part of your post, you shouldve maybe thought about doing these things yourself afterall youve accused me and sean now of purposely taking you out, me at melbourne, now sean here, i was called lame and whatever else for not feeling a contact with you, now its been put in writing and on video that sean made a nasty move on you, but anyhoo we cant have our cake an eat it, if you want to accuse me or sean of these things then be a man and take some back and dont cry about it.

you remember marko we race regular on the servers, we know each others style. ive learned that youll make moves that others wouldnt, ive also learned that you hardly ever leave the space required for other drivers, this is by racing you a lot and seeing first hand how you drive, you probably feel the same way about me which is good because at least you and i know what to expect from each other when we are around each other on track.

p.s can i ask when you were side by side with sean through any of that video? not once do you get side by side, you change a lane but your never side by side.