Season 10 - General Discussion

[Chirlie Williams]

i went threw corner ahead of nico and was on my line , if you wach again you can see when he pulls out to left his car hits the air and slows so there is about 3/4 feet before my car and slipstream ended so wasnt getting any closer so i expected him to try pass on the right side down straight but he didnt.
If our cars were side by side then i see your point but i was ahead so im on my line takin corner then i stay left for inside line to next corner.

 

[Valter Ostman]

i went threw corner ahead of nico and was on my line , if you wach again you can see when he pulls out to left his car hits the air and slows so there is about 3/4 feet before my car and slipstream ended so wasnt getting any closer so i expected him to try pass on the right side down straight but he didnt.
If our cars were side by side then i see your point but i was ahead so im on my line takin corner then i stay left for inside line to next corner.

One can also interpret the images as if you close the door quite resolutely. But I believe that you were unaware that the car was so very close behind you on the outside. It's a breeze to keep the car so that it doesn't slide to the far left in that slight full throttle kink (11) on the straight. The track is wide enough for at least three cars with good margins.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

If our cars were side by side then i see your point but i was ahead so im on my line takin corner then i stay left for inside line to next corner.

I had to chose a side or lift through the corner, and had you demonstrated that you would leave room on the inside of the turn I would have gone there, if you had demonstarted you were going for the apex I would have gone for the outside. however, in my view you did something in between, in effect forcing me to lift or go off the road.

For me it felt you wanted to make it hard for me to pass by going in the middle of the road through the turn. I did not bring this up because I think it was a terrible act but because i think it illustrates the foundation of how we race.

Bottom line is, when you are closely followed, you need to make a clear choice when approaching a turn, and never ever do something in between.

EDIT: Look at it this way, i was about to take the inside when it looked like you did the same. Then I had to go for the outside. However, you didn't go for the inside, there was almost room for 2 more cars on your inside, so obviously going on your outside would never work.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I think as you say Nico it looked Chirlie was taking inside but he wasnt, i think it was just because you were so close to back of car at the time, looking from the above view id have went for inside or just waited but id have been slight further back for kink, i think this is what you would have done if pulled out earlier, i dont really see anything Chirlie should be doing really his lines predictable but i suppose he could be slight more left but his line is simlar to mine in my vid when i go outside of you.

I think being closely followed here at this kink is difficult to follow someone but you shouldnt look at it like being forced to lift, it should be what you have to do if unsure where Chirlie is going but i think he is taking the line that i would to claim the left side i dont think you have to go extreme left there that mid line in turn, is the left line i think, as Valter says theres enough for 3 almost.

Also this kinks more like a high speed turn and picking what lane you prefer due to a possible overtaking slipstream and trying to calculate if guy behind is going to be there or not come the kink is a little to much to ask of car ahead, we only need a predictable line from them and we have to do rest from behind. I think its car behinds job to pick best time and place to pullout and just like picking a defensive line etc it should be done a early as possible like under a car length and not at last point of possible slipstream this leaves both with little time to react to situation, if you had pulled out earlier Chirlie maybe would think you would be along side him in kink like with David.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

First of all thank you for your constructive contribution Sean I didn't want this to become a discussion about who was at fault, thats why I didnt mention names. I usually highlight my own experiences as they are the only once I know intimatly. in this situation I know that I was confused and reacted poorly in a short amount of time, I want to know why I was confused.

I agree with you Sean that he didn't drive in the middle of the road which I have said, looking at it again it looks like a more or less perfect outside line where he leaves plenty of room on the inside. However, he sais himself that he took the normal racing line as I never was on any of his sides. If he had he would have to turn in earlier to make the apex and i would have had room to turn in earlier as well and not go off the track.

I guess this might be the core of the issue, I was expecting a normal racing line but some don't go for the apex of that corner when hotlapping, while others (me) do, iow we have different natural racing lines. Could this be the case? Is your natural racing line through that corner well wide of the apex Chirlie?

 

[Valter Ostman]

Some go in the middle at apex to avoid the bump. A longer way but maybe faster.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Ye its probably debatable whats fastest line through there and probably worth considering a few may have different lines to and no doubt at some point in race there will be a few people in this postion looking to pass someone so these discussions do help give everyone a idea of what we can do in that situation.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I agree Sean that it is debatable what line is fastest, iow the difference is not significant. I think we would make a wise move to change my last post in the drivers meeting to simply say that we all agree to make the inside line (touching the curb at apex) the natural racing line in t11. That will make racing more predictable and safe in that particular hot-spot. Agreed? Or am I jumping the guns?

 

[Valter Ostman]

Why not go tight there whenever we are in front of a car. Predictability and no significant loss of speed.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I think if we look at it like if im side by side by kink we can take it and both should managed ok, there s a slight kick on inside but still its no 130r, and if not got nose up side by kink expect to follow the car ahead through it unless you know the guy aheads line form the race etc but no need to set anything in stone we should be ok but mistakes may happen.

I think we should be fine but 20 or so on grid is always a challenge no matter the car, i think we all done what we can practise wise etc and just a matter of our extra real race caution will help and see how it goes cant wait myself to get back in a full race .

 

[Chirlie Williams]

yes nico i always take that line unless something unexpected happens

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

So why can we not all agree to follow the same line Sean? After all this time waisted on debating this in all the wrong directions we finally get to the core, and we end it without reaching the obvious conclusion? We'll rather go for various racing lines? At Monza we agreed to stay on the left side of the track on the s/f line as some went to the right where it was less bumpy. How is this different?

 

[David Turnbull]

i dont think we should all need to take the same line through the corner, if im remembering correctly theres never been an incident in any race on istanbul with any cars weve used at that particular corner, and to now 1 day before race to be asking for everyone to make a change in race line is a bit silly if you ask me, you and chirlie had a misunderstanding once at that corner, it doesnt suddenly make it eau rouge

said with the best intentions and not wanting to offend

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I was thinking it may be to late in the day to make any changes to peoples lines etc, heavey on fuel etc bottoming out there maybe wider is better for that to and that itself may affect people driving this part when everyone is practised what they have.
I wouldnt have a problem following that line myself if needed.

 

[Valter Ostman]

Lower your wing and run a setup like Arno used to do. No problems on the straights then

 

[Reik Major]

Guys, without the time to read all the stuff above, I like to throw in my general thoughts about that area of the track.

The special situation of this area is the kink after and before the straight. So in comparison to an easy straight, it is not easy for the chased driver to show where he intends to go before and through the kink. So missunderstandings or missinterpretations can easily happen!

So if the chasing driver is in doubt where the chased driver wants to place his car on the straight after the kink, he should settle behind (maybe by lifting) and make his move after the kink. That shouldn't be hard as he has enough time to benefit from the slip stream even after the kink(?).

Of course if the chasing driver made it in a predictable position already before the kink, it should be clear for the chased one wether he must take a tight or wide line through the kink. But if the chasing driver "arrives" when going through the kink, I think he can't expect the driver in front might asume which side he wants to take.

Why not go tight there whenever we are in front of a car. Predictability and no significant loss of speed.

I think it's not fair to generally enforce the driver in front where to go. In my opinion the driver in front has always the free choice how to defend and the following driver has to react properly.

To sum my thoughts up: If the chasing driver wants to go besides another driver when going through a corner (here it's a kink), then it should be his responsibility to make it safe for both of them, otherwise he should wait until the next straight when the driver in front could show where he wants to hold the line.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

The essence of the discussion are the latest post. At the start I was inaccurate with what happened as I didn't understand what Chirlie was doing.

Now that I understand I realise that the misunderstanding happened because he has a different racing line than me.

This is not a discussion if the driver in front need to position himself according to the driver behind anymore (although he always needs to prioritise predictabillity when folowed). It is a discussion if we should allow different racing lines through that potential overtaking area.

i propsed to do the same as on Monza, and ask if we all could follow the "normal" line, but in this case it was argued that it was too late and too much of a challenge for drivers do go over the bump. Fair enough.

My poorly disguised anger in this discussion was because I had the feeling that we again, as always, tried to reach a conclusion that was diplomatic, and if the question had been raised without starting out with my experience with Chirlie the debate would have been very different.

I accept that we do not agree on a racing line but rather take that turn as we wish. be aware though that if you take the wide line you will bu much harder to overtake by those with relative high down force.

Never the less, I now know that David, Chirlie and Sean are taking the wide route, so if I am following them I know I can dive for the inside without risk. All others i will settle behind until I learn how they take that turn. Myself I might do it wide not to be a sitting duck relative to others.

 

[Reik Major]

Just to let you know: When I have someone close behind me before the kink, I'll go through the kink as wide as possible to enforce him to take the right side of me, because it's logical I want to defend for the hairpin on the left side (inside).

 

[Kyle Kaiser]

So reading this, is changing your line for a certain corner to defend your position not allowed?

 

[Reik Major]

You may change your line only once.

For example if you drive down the straight on the right side, because the next corner is a left hander and you get chased very close, you are allowed to make your defensive move to the left side (inside line). But you are not allowed to drive back to the right side then (weaving).