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RSRBR2011 - Realistic vs Reduced damage??

Discussion in 'Richard Burns Rally' started by Warren Dawes, Apr 9, 2011.

  1. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    I would appreciate some feedback from more experienced users of RSRBR2011 re the damage level settings.

    I have read the RBR manual about damage settings, which says that Reduced has medium mechanical faults and Realistic has full mechanical faults. The differences are obvious in an off-line Championship in the base RBR where Services reflect the time to repair the car.

    However, I'm not sure what the scale of difference is in RSRB2011. :confused:
    I have been doing a lot of testing for a possible up-coming RD Club Rally using Realistic damage instead of our usual Reduced. To be totally honest, I can't detect any difference. Maybe my driving style is not hard enough on the car, but I have tried to abuse it (over-revving on downshift, hitting roadside objects, etc), but nothing is obviously different.
    I've only tried it in RSRBR2011 Off-line mode, and driving single Stages (but tried short ones, long ones, different surfaces, weather etc).
    Does it have more impact over a longer driving period, ie. only over multiple Stages using cumulative damage?
    Are the differences only minor (I expected it to be significant)?
    Has the physics in RSRBR2011 eliminated any difference between Reduced and Realistic?
    Does the difference only show in On-Line Rallys?

    Hopefully, someone more experienced with using RSRBR2011 on-line can explain what the differences are and how much more severe Realistic is.
     
  2. Those are all very good questions, now I am very curious to the answers.

    I used to think the damage could be based on the car itself, however I just went thru the physics files for a car and I can't spot anything that looks at all like damage factors for the car. But it definitely feels like some cars (like WRC cars) are more fragile than others.

    My assumption was that reduced still allowed you to damage all parts of a car, but it takes more force to break the parts than on realistic. However I have had some very small collisions result in broken rads and stuck gearboxes on reduced.

    Also I read at some point (can't find it now) that there was some trickery that needed to happen to get cumulative damage across stages. Basically the damage info is taken out of memory at the end of a stage, then restored at the beginning of the next stage. However there is some weirdness there for sure, for example if you break the radiator you can go somewhere between 5-7km without blowing up the motor at max temp. When you start the next stage, it resets this engine wear timer and you can keep going stage after stage as long as it is less than 5km.

    Also gearbox damage is strange too, if you get stuck in a gear and finish a stage, the next stage you will be unstuck but the damage will be like a broken axle or diff. This one might be by design since you always start the stage in neutral.
     
  3. I used to play with ONLY realistic damage and I have to say I have never noticed a difference between cars with some being more fragile. I am not saying that I am RIGHT, but I have never noticed it.

    I have just writen a very long responce to this before i had an idea. I am still to test it but I think I might be right.

    On reduced damage we only ever seam to have certain things in the way of damage. eg, gearboxs locked in gear, the damage is limited to one level. In realistic you have a number levels of damage.

    The gear box can start to loose gears - Each time you select a gear the car revs and you go no where, this then makes the next gear fail after time as you are putting more pressure on it.
    The clutch can be damaged - Each time you change gear the engine revs and you get only a small amount of drive. You have to be very careful about the amount of throttle you use.
    The gear box can become stuck in gear - You know what this is like.
    And i think you can just loose all drive. You can select all gears but you go nowhere. Gexbox is gone.

    I would suggest that this means the game takes away the first few levels of damage on reduced damage. This is why when you have a mechanical failure is just fails rather than reducing your performance over time. Damage also (on reduced or realistic) is accumulated DURING a stage, so if you crash once and nothing breaks you should be carefull because next time you hit something you might loose the gearbox. This might be what is happening with the SMALL accidents people are having that kill cars, it is damage from the whole stage catching up with you. This means that when you have a minor accident the damage that would have made you start to loose gears or have a cluth issue becomes a number in the memory. Next time you hit something that number gets bigger and then.............DNF.

    Just an idea and maybe an overly simple way to look at it but it might explain it.

    No idea on this one but it could be right.
     
  4. To clarify the issues related to car damage:

    There is no difference in the fragility of cars, all cars suffer the same damage. Of course, for example, FWDs have no rear and central diffs and no associated shafts.

    The game sets an internal damage impact based on the settings: this factor is 0.7 for reduced and 1.0 for realistic. I think it was 0.4 for safe.
    This factor is being used to calculate the damage produced for all damage events regardless of the part(s) being involved.

    So any damage event on reduced causes 30% less damage on the part than on realistic.

    Each part (maybe have a look into the repair.ini file of the car) remembers its own damage value or wear (tyres, bodywork) or remaining capacity (battery, head gasket) during the stage.

    Depending on the part, this damage leads to more or less performance penalties. For example the head gasket is very sensitive, I think it was 97% or 98% capacity to get light damage, 95% for medium damage.

    A remarkable issue of the standard RBR car repair logic is that on realistic damage the body work is not being repaired to 100%. There is still 15% damage left.

    I do not know how the RSRBR guys do the repair. Cumulative damage is one thing, but repair is of course still another one. Is there a service park ??
     
  5. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    Thanks for this WorkerBee, that all makes sense, and can be seen when playing the base RBR Championship mode when you get to the Service Park and see the times allocated to the various repairs.
    My concern though, is that I'm not sure if, or how, that translates to on-line Rallys using RSRBR2011.

    I guess we'll have to just start testing it and see what we find. I'm still not finding any noticeable differences in my testing, but it's not easy to compare. Light crashes don't seem any more sensitive, but if I hit an object harder, I get damage (of course) but then it is also happening to the same extent in reduced mode. Abusing the car with excessive revving etc hasn't caused me any problems yet.

    We are going to run a few Realistic Rallys in our Rally Club (starting next week), hopefully that may enlighten us some more.
     
  6. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    Now that we have run our first Test Rally using Realistic Damage (The Full Monte), I would like everyone to continue to provide their feedback on the Damage Modelling here, rather than in the Club Rally Thread.

    Could all drivers who have participated in this rally (or any future Test Rally we organise) please continue to give feedback in this thread. That way, we can keep all the info together.

    In the next post, I will attempt to copy the relevant comments from the "Full Monte" thread.
     
  7. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    Here are the first set of feedback comments:


     
  8. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    Some more comments:

     
  9. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    And finally these comments bring us up to date.






     
  10. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    Feel free to continue this discusion, or add your feedback based on any future Realistic Rally Tests that we may run.
     
  11. I have to agree with Warren,

    It is unrealistic to think that you can bounce off of banks, Armco, fences etc and finish a rally, especially on the podium.

    Everyone on here I have spoken to raves about how RBR is a SIMULATION and the nearest thing to real rallying, well as someone who competes in real rallies I can tell you that the last thing you do is try and use the banks, Armco and fences to go quicker because if you do your rally is 99% of the time over for that day.

    As an example have a look at the off in the video below into the Armco that we had in last years Targa Wrest Point rally in Tasmania. This was a left one hairpin so we were in the process of slowing dramatically for the corner and the ABS unit failed going into the the hairpin so I had reduced braking and pushed into the Armco.

    This off is comparable to what I have seen people doing to the Armco in reduced damage mode in the RBR videos I have watched and they happily keep driving. The below off cost us a top ten finish in a field of 200 cars and over $10,000 in repairs bills so I can absolutely confirm that NO ONE in real rallies uses banks, Armco or fences as a means to go faster with the possible exception of a full snow rally and even then it is probably only team drivers who don't pay for their own cars.

    The crash is at 5:16 into the stage for those who don't want to watch the whole thing



    Finally regarding point 4 in your post, personally as a new comer I actually think using realistic damage in the rallies makes it fairer for a new comer to compete on a level playing field as they are going to be naturally cautious and drive to the conditions and the stage as they don't know the "tricks" of reduced damage of which banks, Armco and fences are safe to bounce off of and which aren't.

    Just My $0.02 on the matter.

    Cheers Al
     
  12. Dariusz Swiderski

    Dariusz Swiderski
    Premium Member

    It seems i didn't explain myself clearly enough. I see the whole discussion is going down to how one drives and the consequences of it in realistic damage mode. I can only speak of myself but i,m sure this will be true for the vast majority of the drivers. When i drive in RBR, i do it as a simulation, means i NEVER use banks, barriers or ANY other objects in the game ( we're taking about impacts ). I never even realized you can use it to your advantage as any contact with track side object will ( ? ) slow you down in my understanding. Even if bouncing of objects will give you an advantage, the risk of getting damage is simply not worth the extra 1 sec you may gain ( maybe ( ? ) with safe or off damage mode ). M,i wrong with this assumption? Have i been missing some party tricks with RBR?

    I,m NOT against realistic damage, far from it. I want my drive to be as real as i can get it to be. And i like some of the realistic damage model. But there is a problem with it, front end. You have to agree, it is weird, right? Often the same impact will give you very different damage, like gearbox with its variations or radiator or engine. You just never know what you're going to get. Lottery. With being on realistic this gets amplified. If you ever got the engine dead with light front end impact on reduced, it was something like 1 in 20, lets say. On realistic this bug gets you 8 out of 10 times. I don't want the number discussion on this, i,m only making a point.

    In my 4 dnf's in the last rally, 3 were very very light front end impacts, with NO ( i mean 100% clean drive until the crash ) previous brush of any kind. My car was 100% damage free when very low speed front end crash resulted in dead engine. I hold my driving licence since 1983, i earn my living from behind the wheel, i know what kind of damage you may get with low speed impacts. What i got was well exaggerated. Not real.

    ALL i,m saying; there is a bug with RBR front end damage model which gets amplified in realistic mode. It doesn't matter where, what surface or what weather we run, the end result will be the same if you make this one small mistake by getting your front end to connect with anything. There is nothing more to test imo.

    I hope i made my point clear this time.
     
  13. Norman Biscuits

    Norman Biscuits
    @ Simberia @Simberia

    Any offs I'm having during a stage aren't an attempt to wall-ride myself an advantage but just down to sheer lack of skill/competence/preparation. If the damage model punishes me for that, fair enough.

    I'm now using realistic as my default damage setting for Round 6 testing. A tough love gesture in an attempt to make me keep the car on the good stuff. :D
     
  14. You made your point clear Dariusz. I May have only had my licence since 1993, but i also earn my living behind the wheel and have 20 years of rally experience and i think you are completely wrong, or at least i have NEVER seen this issue.

    Any crash I have had, in any car in RBR i have always felt the damage, even dead engines were fair or UNDER exaggerated. I have been able to drive away from accidents i thought should have stopped me, but never have I thought an accident gave me too much damage.

    There is NO bug IMO. The damage model works well on realistic with no bugs or strange effects. The only issue is what i said before, it is not sensitive enough.
     
  15. Just re-read my last post......................:eek:

    OK, the discussion is starting to get a little angry here, (I am to blame as much as anyone for that). I think, Dariusz, the issue here is you have found something that you consider a bug, but others like myself and Alastair simply can't see it. You can't convince us of something we don't see and we can't convince you everything is ok.

    We can go round and round in circles fighting here and I am sure none of us want to have serious arguments that lead to people leaving the site and worse the game. While some of us enjoy realistic damage most of the RallyClub runs with reduced. Maybe Warren can throw in a realistic damage rally every now and then (maybe with big warnings for anyone new to the game) so it keeps us all happy

    Instead of trying to tell each other here what realistic damage is like, each driver should find out for him or herself. So here is what any driver needs to know if they are using realistic damage in an RBR on-line rally.....................

    On realistic damage you have to avoid EVERYTHING. One little tap can end your rally so DON'T MAKE MISTAKES, even small ones!!!!!. Wether it is unrealistic or not or wether you agree it is correct, it is a fact in realistic damage.

    BTW Al, nice vid;)
     
  16. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    No Daruisz, you're not missing any party tricks or missing any advantages. (Not to my knowledge anyway).

    I'll try to explain my comment better.
    Rally Driving is a delicate balance between aggression/speed and risk, where the risks are dangerous and the penalties are severe. The driver must run that risk to a fine line, knowing that a mistake can be final. RBR is similar.
    We all need to find the limits of our speed / aggression but keep the car clean. If a driver can push harder, knowing, that if he hits something, rides a barrier, runs off the road etc, he probably will get away with it, then he pushes harder, beyond what he would do if he knew the risks were more severe. That is where some can get an advantage over another driver who is driving a little safer.

    I guess my comment results from people saying that Realistic damage is unacceptabe because they have to drive slower or more carefully. Well, that is real life I'm afraid, but it doesn't mean they are taking a "sunday drive", and therefore it is no longer fun.

    And yes, I have seen video's of drivers who have won, or been on the podium, after driving very aggressively, often out of control, crashing / rolling, but getting away with it. Lucky, yep, but not very realistic.

    I'm still not sure of the differences with Realistic vs Reduced though, it does seem a bit variable to me. Some of the DNF's caused in this rally may still have been DNF's in Reduced. I agree, the damage modelling in reduced seems variable and inconsistent to me too.
    At least by trying Realistic, we might learn more about it. We need to try it more yet, to get a better idea .
    I think many drivers will quickly adapt to driving more carefully too, especially if the bad habits (driving overly hard) don't get in-grained.


    Oops, I posted this while Rick did his post. I hadn't seen his when I did mine. :D
     
  17. Thanks Rick,

    Not to take this thread off topic but.....

    I hate that vid for obvious reasons :) If you want to see one I like have a look at the Sideling vid from Targa Tasmania 2010, I catch and pass two cars on stage (making up 60 seconds) then around 3 k from the finish I lose the clutch slave cylinder and they still don't re catch me :)

    http://www.youtube.com/user/WalkerMsport
    or links from our website
    http://www.walkermotorsport.com.au/

    Cheers Al
     
  18. Dariusz Swiderski

    Dariusz Swiderski
    Premium Member

    I didn't explain myself clearly enough on the fun factor too, it seems lol. Its not a fun when you make 80% of the stage not touching anything and then one little tap gets you DNF. Frustrating and not real. That means you can't relax and have fun knowing you can't make ANY mistakes. So thats where the knowledge of the stages comes into play. If you know the stage well, you CAN relax and have fun, it won't impact on your overall time too.

    No offence to Alastair, but there is no weight behind it, too little experience with the game damage model imo. As for you Rick, why don't you purposely test it for this bug of my? Just head for the nearest tree\post\ect at the start of a stage with what you would consider survivable speed of impact. And repeat that a few times. I wish there was a way of saving replays when you can't drive anymore, but there isn't.

    Is that realistic :confused: I thought we want to make the experience as real as it can get..what i mean by that is, if you do make a mistake in real life and front end something it doesn't mean your rally is finished ( it may happen ), NOT that you shouldn't drive without making any mistakes, you certainly should.
     
  19. heres my 2 cents:

    Theres a lot of talk about comparing rbr to the real thing, and correctly people mention about if it was real they wouldnt use banks etc cos it would wreck their real rally and cost too much. I would just like to point out that if it was real I would be competeing in on a pair of roller skates. (Thats about all I could afford! I actually have a mk2 escort in my garage with a lovely new 2lt pinto beside it readie to go in, but thats how it has sat for 2 yrs, and prob will for a nother 2).

    Personally I am all up for full real settings.... but.... I am concerned that for a complete newbie to try a first go at rbr on full real it may be very off putting, and I think encouraging new people to join in is very important.

    For that reason the idea that only some of the club meetings are full real (Maybe 50/50) seems like a good compromise, this allows new peeps to enjoy their first foray into the rbr world, plus keeps the rest of us on our toes.

    jc
     
  20. Warren Dawes

    Warren Dawes
    Premium Member

    Well said John, and for that reason, I have never intended for Realistic damage to be used for all Club Rallys. In fact I think we will only be running Realistic in Club Events about 20 to 25% at most.