Reality vs. FFB vs. Assetto Corsa

[betterstranger]

Hi guys,

I've been thinking about this matter for some time and I'm really interested in your opinion.
The thing which inspired me to write this thread was some angry voices after AC TP release that Elise SC "has got too much understeer, too much grip and it doesn't drift" (despite the fact that real car doesn't either...) and also some opinions that FFB isn't strong/good enough.

What am I thinking about? Well, I'm interested in your feelings about force feedback in game vs. reality.
Let's suppose that we've got 3 cars in Assetto Corsa (or actually any other sim):
- first car with no power steering
- second one with hydraulic power steering
- third one with electric power steering

We suppose that their real counterparts has got following traits: 1st one has got the best 'road feel', 2nd one good 'roal feel' and 3rd one the worst 'road feel'.

My question is - should it be presented in the game? Should the FFB of the first car (without PS) be crisp and sharp with more power on the wheel and the FFB of the third car (with electric PS) should be numb and should NOT give you that many informations about what's going on with the car's wheels?
In example the difference in 'road feel' between Porsche 911 997 with hydraulic PS vs. 991 with electric PS which all car magazines wrote about.

I feel it could be problematic as we saw with TP because most of the simracers are used to racing cars and when FFB of street Lotus Elise didn't match the FFB of GT1 or F1 car they were used to they thought it was just 'not that good'.

What do you think about this problem guys? How Kunos (or any other publisher) should solve it?

Same question is with the sounds - if Elise SC sounds poorly in the reality should it sound ingame like Ferrari's V12 or Toyota 1.8L engine? (because I also saw people unhappy that Elise's engine didn't sound like racing car's engine)

 

[Harry Platt]

It cracks me up people ask for the most realistic this that and the other and then people start whinging about these thing mentioned above. People need to realise reality can suck. I think it awesome that we are now capable of simulating car weaknesses as well as strengths.

Not every car is perfect in the real world, so why should be any different in a "simulation" of it? Bring it on i say, where is my 930 Turbo...

Oh and also, it would be cool if you could wind down windows in road cars to listen to the engine (or "realistically" a whole load of wind noise). Or take the roof the Lotus Elise. Maybe the modders could do this?

 

[Kreshnik]

I dont really know if your question makes any sense.
Anyway, FFB is calculated through the physics output and transfered to the wheel. If a car is powerfull and has huge grip, it will definitely feel different than a slow car with less grip. If a car has strong suspensions, it will feel different than one with hard suspensions.
When we race on a sim, we want as much information about what the car is doing as possible. It is not a question about what the real wheel is like, its all about how good can you feel the car, since in a sim you have less information than in real life anyway.

Comparing ACs FFB to other sims, it has the best FFB atm imo.

 

[GamerMuscle]

Well given every consumer FFB wheel bar a servo motor wheel is almost totaly abstract from how real car wheel feels and responds. I think the most important thing for a driving simulator is that the FFB does the following.

1) Conveys Tire grip on braking with a gradient of FFB
2) Conveys front wheel grip and under steer with a gradient of FFB
3) Givs counter FFB for when the back end comes out
4) Conveys general car mass to make up for the fact we don't have Bum feel in a sim ( weather that be from the load on the tires or some additional car mass layer)
5) Conveys some bumps and jolts from the road/road texture.

As I say given that consumer wheels and even in many regards using a high end servo wheel is an abstract experience from real world racing, The importance is in getting data to the player that they can then react to whilst still performing as much like the equivalent cars real FFB would.

I believe car realism as a whole should come from the physics model more so than the general FFB model , though I'm fairly sure the more realistic the physics and track are the better and more real the FFB will feel depending on how its implemented.

Its clear that simply having allot of shake and kick is enough to make many people believe that the FFB is of high quality and "real" regardless of its actual reality or functionality , just look how people rave on about RF2's FFB when its arguably worse than what's found in NKP or high end RF1 mods that were ether built well or used a well configured real feel set-up.

NKP and FVA to me are by far the best simulators when it comes to conveying a gradient of FFB so you can lean on the tires and manage your grip through FFB rather than visual cues, something that is massively lacking from other simulators until you get to slower cars.

It will certainly be interesting to see what proper race cars feel like in AC on higher detail tracks with firm suspension, Ideally it will simply be like NKP but with more depth and maybe better communication of under steer.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I think AC TP has excellent FFB and realism, but as I've said, the real test will be with the heavier and faster cars.

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

On AC Tech Preview, try with these settings on the logitech wheels, the last 2 not checked, i've just tried and it feels very good

 

[Damien Wintz]

I largely agree with what GamerMuscle said, but there is one thing you seem to have missed.
People are dumb (mostly).

The fact that rFactor's FFB for instance is not acknowledged as one of the best is because it is damn hard to configure and to get it right, for most people. Even in nKpro you get a lot of clipping with the default setup on many cars.

It is probable that rFactor 2 has the best "out of the box" FFB, and that's where most people stop.

And of course, FFB, while being central, is not the only matter in a sim

 

[Dinca Andrei]

I largely agree with what GamerMuscle said, but there is one thing you seem to have missed.
People are dumb (mostly).

The fact that rFactor's FFB for instance is not acknowledged as one of the best is because it is damn hard to configure and to get it right, for most people. Even in nKpro you get a lot of clipping with the default setup on many cars.

It is probable that rFactor 2 has the best "out of the box" FFB, and that's where most people stop.

And of course, FFB, while being central, is not the only matter in a sim

It might be one of the best but it doesnt feel like its the best.Also i`ve tried the Demo of rF2 and it was just impossible to drive that car on a clean lap.As i was new to this SIM when i tried the Demo,i am sure many who tried first time had the same feeling.Maybe after some hours spend in the game you start to handle it differently but it should not be hard from the start.The game isnt yet "finished" as they work on it and things can get better......

 

[GamerMuscle]

It might be one of the best but it doesnt feel like its the best.Also i`ve tried the Demo of rF2 and it was just impossible to drive that car on a clean lap.As i was new to this SIM when i tried the Demo,i am sure many who tried first time had the same feeling.Maybe after some hours spend in the game you start to handle it differently but it should not be hard from the start.The game isnt yet "finished" as they work on it and things can get better......

Rf2's roads become more grippy as they rubber in after say 8 laps or so with 7 + cars.

But RF2 has massive physics issues with the cars that come with the game , when it comes to driving on the limit , if you are the sort of racer that drives by feel and balancing a car on its limit making small corrections trying to stay on that limit at all times then RF2 will let you down.

RF2 promotes track memory racing where you learn what the limit is with practise in advance of a race and then always stay under that learned limit , you also benefit from setting the car up to be overly safe with the back end to ensure you give less of an opportunity for rf2s over the limit physics to kick in.

How you approach RF2 from a drivers point of view is prity much identical to RF1 though with its better cars it does have slightly more depth in how the cars grip and its slightly more stable than RF1 on the limit.

But really its not like real driving at all, in that in a real car you can always test for and feel like you have infinite ways to improve a corner outside of simply using more track, in RF1 and RF2 its basically a case of memorise the limit and cut the track as much as possible. Which becomes a massive issue for side by side racing/out-braking people or when the weather is active and you have not had a chance to memorise a given situation.

The thing is most people are way way way off the pace and so are unaware of the issues of RF1 and RF2 and some people enjoy driving by pure memory of track and probably think that's the only way to approach racing.

What's funny is if you watch FSR you see top level drivers succumb to RF1 crazy physics with dull unable to escape drifts and low speed slides that are just bizarre and evan then thats with FSONE which is probably one of the better and most stable RF1 mods.

NKP and FVA has its own issues in that you could do some strange micro drifts that I'm not sure you would be able to do in real life , this was prominent in the FVA F1 academy competition.

But at least NKP and FVA communicate tire grip under on and over the limit very subtly with the cars also behaving with far more depth when it comes to the cars angle and position.

 

[Mo Selvarajah]

th

We suppose that their real counterparts has got following traits: 1st one has got the best 'road feel', 2nd one good 'roal feel' and 3rd one the worst 'road feel'.

if youve driven any of the high performance road cars like an M3 for example, they have next to no steering feel. Most modern BMW's have this issue now.

I'm not sure if the lotus elise has power steering. ive driven a standard elise mark 2 from years ago and that did not have power steering.

In either case its irrelevant. Because simgames simply cannot simulate a lot of the key forces you use when feeling the car in reality - force felt through the bum, the sideways motions that subject you to using that inner ear balance etc.
in a sim game, the FFB is the only way to communicate these things.

I would rather have FFB that is 'unrealistic' but communicates the most amount of information artificially, than something that felt 'realistic' and muted.

the problem with all wheels though is they simply are not strong enough to turn quickly enough reacting to different track forces and cambers and bumps. The only wheel capable of doing it would be the bodnar wheel or something similar (servo drive wheel)

if youve driven a race car with slicks (except F1 where each team seems to run varying amounts of power steering + caster) the steering of these cars are stiff to turn, meaty, like you are turning a tyre using a wheel connected by a long shaft (....like reality) but at the crucial moments where the back end steps out, the wheel wants to self correct and is very easy to counter steer, but then will instantly weight up once corrected. We're talking fractions of a second and huge amounts of torque being delivered in either direction, instantly.

thats why i still use a G25, because it has the lowest amount of standing resistance compared to the fanatecs/thrustmasters of this world. It is not as strong, but allows me to counter steer and react quickly.


theres a great moment demonstrating whats going through the wheel, in a GP2 crash from last year, where the guy is skimming the barrier on the run up Massenet and the tyre is stuck against the barrier whilst the car is still moving. Yes i know this is an extreme example but it shows you how much force is capable of being transferred through the steering. (go to 3m 8s) Its a great example of how quickly and loose the steering should be when its being subject to quick opposing forces.

one thing ive noticed - if you put the dampening on 100% on a logitech g25, it feels almost like the kind of weight and 'sticky' feel from moving around in a race car - the difference though is when the car becomes loose, when you need to counter steer, or the front tyres go over kerbs and are momentarily in the air, the wheel needs to shed that 100% dampening and go to 0 instantly.

it would be fascinating to try AC TP with a bodnar wheel - i wonder if the game has been tested with a servo drive wheel at all, and whether the game is capable of communicating ffb info quickly enough to fully utilise a servo drive wheel. If AC allows you to drive the cars properly, and is a step up from NKP/FVA, the bodnar wheel is probably worth the investment.

 

[baloche]

some people have motion simulator so they don't need "all effect" or "fake effect" maybe the good thing is to have a option to disable effect due to power steering ? or reduce them... (but you can do it in the drivers profile...

i think for all of us the best is to have a lot of effects but if we can choose to disable them like in real life , it 'll be perfect
something like :
1-all effects (real+fake)
2.real effects
3.fake effects


sorry for my bad english

 

[Stereo]

one thing ive noticed - if you put the dampening on 100% on a logitech g25, it feels almost like the kind of weight and 'sticky' feel from moving around in a race car - the difference though is when the car becomes loose, when you need to counter steer, or the front tyres go over kerbs and are momentarily in the air, the wheel needs to shed that 100% dampening and go to 0 instantly.

I get that feeling in AC fairly well, though scaled down because the max torque is not large on a DFGT - and I don't know how immediately it responds, I can't drive that way from a view where I can see the back end slipping.

 

[Miroslav Davidovic]

Sad to see aristotelis supporting this bs talk about rf2 here. Well, vote for simracing fail here.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Sad to see aristotelis supporting this bs talk about rf2 here. Well, vote for simracing fail here.

Can you explain this..............?

 

[Radek Zukowski]

Can you explain this..............?

Aristotelis liked post #9
So sad, my god, I cried for almost two hours yeasterday

 

[Travis]

Perhaps he liked this section of the post: 'But at least NKP and FVA communicate tire grip under on and over the limit very subtly with the cars also behaving with far more depth when it comes to the cars angle and position'.

 

[GamerMuscle]

Sad to see aristotelis supporting this bs talk about rf2 here. Well, vote for simracing fail here.

Why don't you make a well thought out response and actually justify your position rather than being so emotive and not offering any content of value ?

How do you know the exact specifics of what Aristotelis agreed with with or disagreed with ? the like button is fairly limited he might have only skimmed parts of the comment or only liked certain parts. He might have just clicked the button by accident how do you know ?

What you call "BS talk about RF2" might actually be the reality, its widely known that the method ISI use for tire calculations has its own limitations and advantages as do all different methods , as you may have noticed I pointed out that in FVA and NKP you can do strange micro drifts I have not seen that behaviour in RF1 or RF2.

I'm not sure why you are so worked up about it, Kunos will have grate respect for ISI and vice versa and there is no harm in anyone identifying , talking about or postulating where one method might be better or worse in varouse situations than another.

 

[Miroslav Davidovic]

I am not emotive nor upset about your post. I know your opinion very well meanwhile about rf2 and you are obviously free to have it. We all benefit from different opinions in one way or another.
Also I think you know also what I think about those so called "issues". I am not here to discuss that with you as I know where that leads to meanwhile.

Its just sad and disappointing to see indi devs support negative stuff about other indi devs but on the other hand use sentences for marketing like "vote for simracing".
What he thought or didn't thought i don't know and can only assume the obvious.
This is my opinion and some of you might not care at all about such stuff which also doesn't surprise me.

 

[Dinca Andrei]

Jessus....they can not make one single move without rant over it.....S.T.A.L.K.E.r

 

[GamerMuscle]

Its just sad and disappointing to see indi devs support negative stuff about other indi devs but on the other hand use sentences for marketing like "vote for simracing".
What he thought or didn't thought i don't know and can only assume the obvious.

You are reading way to much into someone clicking a like button

This is my opinion and some of you might not care at all about such stuff which also doesn't surprise me.

What are you talking about ?

Your opinion is not even clear and now you seem to be asserting that others somehow don't see value in everyone just getting along , which then implies you think people have some sort of vendetta against each simulator and that people don't respect other peoples work.

You do realise that you can be critical of something whilst still having respect for the work that goes into it ?

You also realise that just because someone points out an issue or perceived issue in one aspect of something they are not dismantling the validity of the whole thing ?

Also everyone is welcome to an opinion but its a fact that Some opinions have more value than others , unless you actually give a reason for an opinion that's logical or supported by evidence then its essentially worthless to other people other than it maybe being a possibly shared subjective statement.

RF1 , RF2 and NKP even i racing drive differently , feel different to drive and have cars that behave differently outside of them simply being different cars. These differences are from the developers taking different approaches to there physics models and car implementations. Its only natural that each of these titles will be better or worse at varouse aspects of physics and FFB.

You are basically making the argument that its wrong for someone to point out where they believe one models end result might be better or worse than another.

Which makes no sense especially in a thread talking about FFB which often ties directly to the physics and how a developer ties those physics the the FFB.

Also its fairly reasonable to say that a tire model / physics model that references a limited data set would be worse at coping with situations outside of that data set. But conversely it will also produce very precise workable figures and results when operating within its dataset.

This is why I believe for things like tire temperature and engine ware, and how that would correlate with the real world RF1 and RF2 are unrivalled.