PC1 Reaction to the newer builds

[Randy Winston]

I have been avoiding pCARS for a while, because of problems with input lag and laggy graphics at the lowest settings. I decided to give it another try this evening as I had nothing to do. I'm glad I did, as it is massively improved since I last tried it a couple of months ago. I think some fine tuning with regards to my ffb settings and this could be great fun. I'm looking forward to this game, mostly on the consoles, because if there isn't going to be modding, I'd rather have it on there anyway. So to the detractors, I urge you to give it another shot. They are getting there.

 

[Adrian Britton]

Hi Peter
I would rather this is discussed in an open forum that is not biased then on WMD forum which is a closed forum that you have to abide to there rules.
Which would end up with the thread been ridiculed and chastised by Pcar fan boys.

Beside, I am sure they have read it by now and are aware of my opinions.

I think it would be a waste of time, to be truthfull mate, as most criticism (in this nature) is deemed as against the forum rules.

I am sure if they wanted, they would reply in here. To publicly dismiss my opinion.

 

[Jack Sargent]

I am sure if you posted that on the PCARS forums you would be ridiculed and laughed out long before you could justify your opinions. Shame really as you explain it so well and clearly know what you are talking about. It makes perfect sense to me.

About my asking for a refund................I PM'd one of the devs and asked them about it but he said he wasn't aware of any facility for offering refunds and that I would be better served contacting a moderator.............

So what do you think???? Should I send the same message to Ian Bell and see what he says????

 

[Adrian Britton]

If you only payed £10 - £20 pounds man, I would just walk away and forget about it.
Its more stress then its worth.
Besides if its going down the arcade route of gaming! then I think they will need every penny they can get. (think of it as a donation, a pat on the back to them)
"well at least they tried" sort of thing.

 

[Super Koala]

I am sure if you posted that on the PCARS forums you would be ridiculed and laughed out long before you could justify your opinions. Shame really as you explain it so well and clearly know what you are talking about. It makes perfect sense to me.

About my asking for a refund................I PM'd one of the devs and asked them about it but he said he wasn't aware of any facility for offering refunds and that I would be better served contacting a moderator.............

So what do you think???? Should I send the same message to Ian Bell and see what he says????

Why not? it's may be worth a try.

 

[Super Koala]

Well, the way I see it is that for investors and potential customers there should be some vehicle to address these concerns. As with any project, it makes commercial sense.

I checked out the physics page on SMS and there is work going on but it does look beyond the basic forces and turning moments. It seems the visuals and content is building nicely but the physics are lagging. I'm not aware of the development cycle but it is obvious, even to me, that the physics model is the yardstick that a lot of people are judging the direction of the game. I would think that some PR and assurance is in order to keep the customer on side.

Anyway, being old and past it I must go for a nap now before I practice for Sundays race.

 

[Marian Zelenka]

I've just tried the newest build (the last time tested a few months back) and looks like it's still undrivable for Fanatec wheels. My steering column is just "welded" in the center. And the menu, ... not worth commenting.

 

[Uff]

I've just tried the newest build (the last time tested a few months back) and looks like it's still undrivable for Fanatec wheels. My steering column is just "welded" in the center.

There has been a workaround for this for a long time and the problem should be fixed with recent firmware updates and driver from Fanatec. Just keep in mind they're still beta and still have some problems.

Physics should come first.

No. Physics come together: it's not a one man game, so once a part of the team works on graphic (which definitely is where we can SEE improvements), the other works on other aspects of the game.
This should be something well know in 2012.

 

[Scott Coffey]

No. Physics come together: it's not a one man game, so once a part of the team works on graphic (which definitely is where we can SEE improvements), the other works on other aspects of the game.
This should be something well know in 2012.

No, no, a thousand times no! You must listen to all the professional game developers in this thread who insist that ALL GRAPHICS WORK MUST CEASE until the physics guys have a completely bug-free and polished product. Only then can we start work on graphics. Maybe all the graphic guys could go out and get physics degrees so they could help out? And then when the physics guys are done they could get training in graphics so they could then be helpful in this truly serial development process. So... no more work on Nordshlief or other tracks, no more work on the new Fords... all developers (even the web designers and multiplayer coders!) are to immediately move to the physics department.

It's how everyone does it, right?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

rf2 had ordinary physics 6months ago, but 6 months later has the best{not every car imo}.

 

[Kazumi]

Hi Peter
You generaly find that by just weaving, the sense of body movment isnt there.
It only become noticeable when turning at speed, where you are wanting body movement.
Also this is where the body mass changes, in a game it feels like it stays the same, where in a sim the mass of the car is changing and the grip is constantly moving with the car, as well as the amount of turning ratio between the front and back wheels.

[Picture]

Once you initiate a spin both models do roughly the same though

The inner tire will also be more loaded laterally which helps in the "circle" like motion.

It's more when, how and how fast you initiate a motion, and I suppose we are more talking about < 20° here.

The center doesn't change much depending on car. With a drift car you can easily do controlled and smooth 360°s and continue driving like nothing happened. It should get much less smooth with race cars of course and the weight balance on those cars is also different (maybe more like 40:60 on those race cars)

In testing road cars it's actually helpful to test that drift / swaying motion in a straight line. After that you will know how smooth or rough the car will be on a track and at which speeds. I dunno if at speed drag is a more prominent factor though.


Edit: I agree so far though, that weight transfer is underestimated by some developers or in other cases the engine isn't perfectly suited for it. As you pointed out in most arcade racing games weight transfer isn't of concern at all.

 

[Andy_J]

Gutsy move Peter.

And brave. Does he want a refund or something?

 

[Mapu]

Finally, this discussion seems to be moving into the right direction; a neutral look into the basics of a sim. It has become a pleasure to read; nodding my head while doing so. lol

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

Have you set your rotation to 900? That worked for me for my g25

that plus clicking on the double arrow while you still hold the wheel at 90 degrees in the second step. clear mistake in the layout, should be said somewhere. Found the advice on the WMD forum. Running nicely now, here's my first feedback after being away from the game for 5 months:
looks fantastic (though still some glitches, i.e. karts are all flying 10 cm above ground in replay), sounds absolutlely great
clearly 100% an arcade game, no feel of the overall mass of the car at all. There is a point in the middle of the car around which everything turns whereas it should feel like four points (wheels) are in contact with the surface (s. the great image sb. posted above)
AI is a joke, but I haven't fiddled with the parameters there yet, so maybe this can be dialled out. As it is out of the box, the kart AI mostly didn't quite manage to get round the track, lol.
Once the problems have been solved it should be a fun game on a console or for a happy evening, like the Race Driver series before or Shift. Will follow the development more closely now.

 

[Adrian Britton]

Hi Kazumi
I would say that both models have and act totaly different upon spin.

The fixed central model when in a spin has no lateral movement, so if it spins, it spins.

Where as the moving central point, can shift the mass to one side, this will give a more vigorous spin but will allow the driver to find the direction of grip quicker.
(In a sim the mass moves from front to side to back, which makes a bigger spin turn then the fixed central point does)

Which is why in a game like (shift), you spin and its game over, where in a sim like (rfactor) you can save a spin and save the car.

In a different note, the other biggest difference between the two different models is that the four contact points can create the feeling of front, rear and four wheel drive (even three wheel)
(by shifting the mass and the central point of the car)

The fixed central point can only provide wheel spin and drift to simulate the difference between front and rear drive.

And dont get me started on wheels, tires and grip.
Thats a totaly different model.
(but as im not been paid or part of a racing company, I aint going to go into details of the why's and hows with them)

But trust me Pcars has not even touched the tip of the iceberg of what is provided in a sim regarding control, grip and turning.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

F2 in rf2 is probably the best example of a 4 contact point car, F3 and BT20 aren't bad either.

 

[Kazumi]

Hi Kazumi
I would say that both models have and act totaly different upon spin.

The fixed central model when in a spin has no lateral movement, so if it spins, it spins.

Where as the moving central point, can shift the mass to one side, this will give a more vigorous spin but will allow the driver to find the direction of grip quicker.
(In a sim the mass moves from front to side to back, which makes a bigger spin turn then the fixed central point does)

Which is why in a game like (shift), you spin and its game over, where in a sim like (rfactor) you can save a spin and save the car.

In a different note, the other biggest difference between the two different models is that the four contact points can create the feeling of front, rear and four wheel drive (even three wheel)
(by shifting the mass and the central point of the car)

The fixed central point can only provide wheel spin and drift to simulate the difference between front and rear drive.

And dont get me started on wheels, tires and grip.
Thats a totaly different model.
(but as im not been paid or part of a racing company, I aint going to go into details of the why's and hows with them)

But trust me Pcars has not even touched the tip of the iceberg of what is provided in a sim regarding control, grip and turning.

- The simply model is limited to that type of spin, yes.

However you can create that kind of behaviour with an advanced physics model.

Triggered by a collision for example ( 0:11 )

- At least in the advanced physics model you can't exclude lateral and vertical force on each tire, inertia and traction.

 

[Adrian Britton]

Thats my point exactly, in a game the car spins off like pictured below.

Where as, in a sim the cars central point and mass shift (mass displayed as red circle, red arrow shows where the mass is shifting too) and the car does not spin in a straight line, it kinda makes a strange curving motion (from the drivers perspective)

From the spectators point of view, it may look like the car does a 360 but from the drivers point of view the feeling of spinning is far from circular.

 

[Super Koala]

Hi Adrian
Great posts. I wondered if you would check out the Lotus 49 Cosworth please. I'm driving around Milan and I'm sure I feel a difference in it's charactristics. Not in the other Lotuses though

 

[Adrian Britton]

Sorry Peter, but I uninstalled Pcars.
There isnt much point having a program thats communicating across the internet, installed on my pc if im not using it or dont like it.

Thats what the new launcher does, (doesn't it ?) acts as a background service.

 

[Super Koala]

Sorry Peter, but I uninstalled Pcars.
There isnt much point having a program thats communicating across the internet, installed on my pc if im not using it or dont like it.

Thats what the new launcher does, (doesn't it ?) acts as a background service.

Fair enough, anyone else able to tell me if it's changed? possibly for the better or worse?