PC1 Reaction to the newer builds

[Randy Winston]

I have been avoiding pCARS for a while, because of problems with input lag and laggy graphics at the lowest settings. I decided to give it another try this evening as I had nothing to do. I'm glad I did, as it is massively improved since I last tried it a couple of months ago. I think some fine tuning with regards to my ffb settings and this could be great fun. I'm looking forward to this game, mostly on the consoles, because if there isn't going to be modding, I'd rather have it on there anyway. So to the detractors, I urge you to give it another shot. They are getting there.

 

[Graham Byford]

There should be a normal way also i think.

You will only get a refund if you request it soon after you have purchased a toolpack.

If you have had access to builds for any length of time you will be refused a refund on the grounds that you have been using there product for long period, therefore getting use from it even though it's WIP and not a finished product. I personally disagree with this stance as the product is unfit for purpose being in a pre alpha state, and as users we have been using our time bug testing and posting on the forums.

 

[Super Koala]

Well I knew I was buying into a pre alpha so I didn't expect too much. I see the point of the time limit but this should also be balanced against any advertised expectations, if there were any. I don't know. It may well be fit for purpose as a pre alpha. In my case I can always point out that I survive on a small pension as retired early and point out that I'm on mind altering drugs. If they feel sorry for me maybe I'd get my money back. I like the fun though and something to keep the grey matter turning over and some coordination to my body. All in all the only disappointment I have in these games is the cartoon features in the cockpit. Only open cars for me but I have found that all the games I have bought have good points but I wouldn't know good physics if they bit me on the bum.

 

[Kazumi]

All in all the only disappointment I have in these games is the cartoon features in the cockpit.

The what?

 

[Adrian Britton]

I realised after this build that, its going to be just another arcade game that looks nice.

A sim (rfactor, GSC, rfactor 2) feels like to me that it has four contact points on the track, each individualy moving. So there is no fixed central point. Meaning, as the car turns, its central point moves and the car body moves.

Where a game feels like it has one fix, central contact point, usualy based around the drivers head. This makes the turning feel odd and it makes any phyics or tweaking feel wrong.
Pcars to me, feels more like a game then a sim, an I got a shelf full of them.
I dont want any more.

 

[Super Koala]

The what?

Yes I could have put that better. What I mean is I don't like the look of cockpits with low fidelity dashboards. They look like a bit cartoonish. Good looking cockpits like the Eve and Brabham in rf2 seem to be a bit more convincing to me and the more modern formula cars.
As we know, pCARS have good looking cockpits in the open cars. I would like these with convincing physics in my gameplay.

 

[Ivo Simons]

You will only get a refund if you request it soon after you have purchased a toolpack.

If you have had access to builds for any length of time you will be refused a refund on the grounds that you have been using there product for long period, therefore getting use from it even though it's WIP and not a finished product. I personally disagree with this stance as the product is unfit for purpose being in a pre alpha state, and as users we have been using our time bug testing and posting on the forums.

Quite weird. You would say people who use it longer have equal right or even more. You can ask a refund after a while because you dont like the way its heading or anything and want your money back as its still a investment. Another example of how poor SMS respect is to people who use the game.

 

[Super Koala]

I find that the lotuses are still quite good around Rouen in this build. I do wonder if the brakes are too good on the 78 and the 98T. Anyone any idea?

I thought the steering a bit tight on these too but may be my setting up

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

just did a clean reinstall jumping from build 120sth to the current one, and what a joke: I used the pre-fab wheel settings for the g27, callibrated my wheel and got an unplayable game (again). ridiculous. will try to find sth. on their forum tomorrow, also, the menus are - let's say - difficult, pointing your mouse at a certain item does not mean the item is now clickable, unnerving, to say the least.

 

[Super Koala]

Have you set your rotation to 900? That worked for me for my g25

 

[Kytt]

Quite weird. You would say people who use it longer have equal right or even more. You can ask a refund after a while because you dont like the way its heading or anything and want your money back as its still a investment. Another example of how poor SMS respect is to people who use the game.

Not weird at all. They use this money for development, it's not just standing on the bank account to backup refund. It is logical to give only short term refund

 

[Adrian Britton]

The turning physics will always be tight and there is no wheel setting that can solve it.
As this is what I am trying to say the difference between the turning curve of a sim and a game.

Below is a turning graph of what I was trying to say between the difference of feeling four contact points and having a moving central point, to the one at the bottom which has a fixed central turning point.

Sim Turning

Game turning

 

[Andy_J]

Quite refreshing to see other Pcars investors now realizing that it is indeed aimed at the console loving, wall crash loving, car bouncing off walls loving, no damage loving, grip fest loving, smart visuals loving, none sim loving, arcade fest loving, cheat racing loving, simcade loving and finally.....investment potential loving none simulator fan base.

I rest my case.

 

[Super Koala]

Adrian
I just drove along a straight line with the formula one, I crossed and recrossed the line weaving. On replay, especially a rear view, it did not turn around the centre and looked quite normal to me. I will try the othe open wheelers tommorrow but it may be that the replay is not accurately following the cars physics, If not, I hope they fix it soon or I'll be looking out for it all the time

Edit: Also checked out my favourite the 70's Cosworth and that was good too. I checked at Rouen by weaving along the yellow line in the middle of the track then by keeping the two right tyres on the line and steering off and then back on repeatedly.

I only drive from the cockpit view and if I've had a feeling that something is wrong I think it may be the direction the tyres didn't seem to match the steering turning rate of the car but I haven't really checked that out. I will do tomorrow.

Can you quantify what you have found, why not post your graphs on the WDM support site as a bug so they can look into it

 

[Adrian Britton]

Hi Peter
You generaly find that by just weaving, the sense of body movment isnt there.
It only become noticeable when turning at speed, where you are wanting body movement.
Also this is where the body mass changes, in a game it feels like it stays the same, where in a sim the mass of the car is changing and the grip is constantly moving with the car, as well as the amount of turning ratio between the front and back wheels.

 

[Super Koala]

That is fair enough, it is only behaving like the left hand side of the graph at low speed, is that what you are saying? I would have no idea at high speed as there are so many other forces in action. If you have measured these why not post to WMD. Don't think that they will bite you seem a reasonal person . They only get upset at nasty posts. I would have thought Andy's post above would well wind them up

Back tomorrow

 

[Graham Byford]

I realised after this build that, its going to be just another arcade game that looks nice.

A sim (rfactor, GSC, rfactor 2) feels like to me that it has four contact points on the track, each individualy moving. So there is no fixed central point. Meaning, as the car turns, its central point moves and the car body moves.

Where a game feels like it has one fix, central contact point, usualy based around the drivers head. This makes the turning feel odd and it makes any phyics or tweaking feel wrong.
Pcars to me, feels more like a game then a sim, an I got a shelf full of them.
I dont want any more.

Great post, and describes what I feel when driving with PCARS, your picture illustrates this very well. I've been trying to put this into words myself but failed to do so.

Can you please post this and the info in your later posts on the WMD forum in one of the physics threads.

I can also see this effect when watching onboard replays, the cornering looks rather odd, very stable and sterile like the car has a mass damper and one big wheel/tyre in the middle of the car. This creates a feeling of lack of mass and weight transfer/inertia, and combined with the cars having too much grip in general the cars look and feel almost like a slot car and uninvolving to drive.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Below is a turning graph of what I was trying to say between the difference of feeling four contact points and having a moving central point, to the one at the bottom which has a fixed central turning point.

Excellent post Adrian, perfectly points out one of the differences between a good sim and a arcadey game.

As I'm sure you know, in rf2, virtually all the cars have great brakes and front ends, though some need work on the low speed rear grip IMO, but cars like the 60F2 and the BT20 have so much feel coming thru it's hard to believe, it's impressive they can dial in that amount of fidelity and transfer it via the FFB of a gimped G27, I wonder how great rf2 FFB would be with a T500 etc.

 

[Adrian Britton]

Thanks for the possative replies, I was a bit anxious about posting them.
Given the attacks that the WMD comunity have done on others in the past, I think I will pass on posting this in there.
They are a bit too clicky for my likening.
The best way to feel this arcadey feel is to run the carteham R500 at Watkins Glen. On corner 5 through to 6 and 7, (the chicane).
The chicane should be a 3rd gear pushing to 4th, but you can turn thr car (like its on rails) in 4th pushing to 5th gear.
Plus the mas of the car at that speed should be pushing the car sideways and making the back slide out.
I didnt do the grip for the game graph in the pictures, as its too sporadic. Meaning its too hard to demonstrate.
Sometimes the grip feels there and then sometimes it just feels like your trying to drive a hovercraft.
Plus the amount of steer the front wheels have over the rear wheels differs in a sim, this makes every car feel different.
In Pcars all the cars feel the same as there turning ratio is the same at all speeds.
So it doesnt matter if your driving a zonda or a caterham, they all feel the same. I mean your not getting a true experience on inertia.

 

[Super Koala]

Adrian
Do you mind if I put this to Wmd? It was me who asked for the comments so I feel I'm part of the sensible discussion. If they bawl me out I don't really care. I'll have to quote your views but I won't name you if you like.

Something else. I started with WMD at the start but didn't bother with it as it was still too raw for me but I did download a new build now and again. I have noticed that every time it got better, the next time it worse. It was just not consistent. Most noticeable the FFB for me.
Caterham R500 is the only open wheeler I dont drive but I think all the LM prototypes are a bit wooden. I most like the lotuses but they are too grippy and no sway as people have said.
What I'm wondering is if and when they do get something right, they file it away for the Beta and give us back the Alpha. I suppose there must be some point where the developement ends and they cut it off before the game is released or we would end up with a near completed game and not buy the completed one. Probably just me being paranoid.

Let me know if you dont mind . It will take me a while as I am not experienced with this sort of thing and if you agree, I'll post a copy on here but probably on a new thread

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Gutsy move Peter.