RDRC - Suggestions

[Łukasz Demolin]

I think I know what kind of pinion Rick wants to hold . Also think about it that way: the top 10 scored isn't a bad idea, since it requires you to push a bit more, work for the points. And it's fine, points are more valuable etc. However we have a pretty varied field ATM. "In real life" there is a whole bunch of classes (8 only in N and A group, not to mention various Hs, now R etc.), and that allows not only to rally for less money, but with less speed as well. We have only 2 classes, and in Premier only there is a huge difference in speed. Unfortunately this can be achieved only by a hard work in practicing and memorizing tracks (I'm not condemning it, that's just how it is) and some drivers might not like that idea and want to drive depending on the pacenotes more (like me, despite some heavy practice on Mlynky in Round 1 ). The same goes for Champions, where there are a couple of very fast drivers, giving the slower guys no chance of fighting back.

The argument against creating more classes at the end of S1 was that there is not enough drivers to fill them - that changed right now. Also if you look at real rallies there are sometimes cases when just a one (or a few) driver competes in a class. That will probably change in Season 3, but I don't think we should make such a change right now (although I've seen it done in bigger leagues) - that's why increasing the overall scored drivers is a sort of a temporary fix (20/50 isn't that much really in an online league).

In the end I'm not really sure if I'm a big fan of doing so either, just giving you a different point of view - also we need the feedback from drivers a tad lower in the results, since it's them we are thinking about discussing it (I already got 1 point ).

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

very civilized discussion going on here, kudos to all who participate. I repeat myself: no changes in the middle of the season, we had enough time before the season started, everyone was invited to join the discussion then, decissions have been made, let's respect them.

 

[Adam Jonas]

I've got an idea for Season 3.

Somewhere, in a Hungarian league, I saw a very interesting pointing system, which called 'dynamic point system'. It means this: for exmaple, 12 driver compete in a round. The points will be 12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1. But, the next time, 20 drivers compete in the round, so the pointing systme modified to 20-19-18-17...-1. So the points depended on how much people entered to the event.

The disadvantage of this system is that can modify so dramatic the championship's standing, and it is possible at the end that nobody will have any chance to beat the driver who is first on the Drivers's Championship table, whereas they would have any chance to win the championship with 'fix pointing system'.

I hope you mean what I wanted to explain.

 

[Aaron DeMarre]

Just to clarify since I did not state it, my suggestions were targeted towards future seasons, not this season. However I would not be opposed to a change in the points system mid-season, but it causes a dilemma. The problem is you either have to go back and retroactively adjust the points for R1 and R2, or you have to accept that R1 and R2 are "less important" since the opportunity to score in those two rallies would be much less than the following rounds. Thats fine too, lots of racing series have different coefficients for each event.

My only fear is we end up the season with a large portion of the field not scoring a single point. Thats just not fun for anyone, and could have a direct impact on the participation levels going forward IMO.

I hate to say it, because it makes me feel like a whiny b!@#$, but I don't have a whole lot of regret about missing R2 because I am fairly certain that whether I ran the rally or not the outcome would have been the same for me points wise - nil. Points are not why I run in the series, I do it because I love to rally. But I can't lie that points are a major motivating factor for me to pick one event over another when planning my sim racing schedule.

Lastly, I would just like to point out that I think the reason this is such a hot topic is because we all truly care about this series and want to see it continue to grow. I think it is important to remember that we all have the same goal in mind, to maintain and grow the current participation, and to provide a series that is fun for all skill levels.

 

[Terri Buenaflor]

The problem is you either have to go back and retroactively adjust the points for R1 and R2, or you have to accept that R1 and R2 are "less important" since the....

this would be a nice idea if a change in scoring points is made.

No, that wouldn't really work. If someone did well in one rally, and skipped the next one, he'd be at the bottom of the list, even I would be above him

I see so its not that easy

 

[Robb Kulcsar]

I have to say battling for my position in the "B league" last season was great. I wasn't going for the overall win or even the class win and still felt like every point mattered. This season I love how much participation there is, but since points are hard to come by the championship rounds end up not being much different than the club rallies for a large chunk of the field.

I would rather see more classes to score in than larger scoring tables tho, and this would allow more cars to be used. Having something like Group N 2WD, Group N 4WD, Group A 2WD, Group A 4WD would segment people into smaller scoring groups. Perhaps I am overestimating the amount of people that want to drive 2WD. Maybe 2WD, N4/N4S, A8, A8W? Just throwing stuff out there (rambling).

I agee with this ideas, I myself battled last year for no.1 in second league and this year if I manage one point all season it would be great. I'm racing not for winning or scoring points (but I have this in my mind, i'm not a liar ), but for the fun of it and would be great to see more classes from next season, I'm racing on French server with FWD, with the less powerfull car, just to try and keep up the pace with the fastest guys (in the same class), because the time for playing is limited now for me and I'm new with the wheel even after 2 months - but I barelly manage pos. 10.
I'll try to do all races here, clubs and chapms. and you won't loose me even if I'll be scoring no points .
So I'd like more classes for the next season (if not is ok) and no scoring points changes.

 

[Kevin Hopkins]

I have no problem with the points system staying as it is or paying points further down the field.
What i would like to see though is every single drivers' position displayed in the points table,that way you can see if you are progressing or falling down the field after each round.
Being my first season here i am impressed with the slick organisation of both the league and club rallies as well as the openess to encourage discussions such as this.
We have to remember also the organising commitee have put a lot of work into this season already and what ever we decide must not bog them down in more work ,they are here to rally and have fun just like the rest of us..lets remember that ...this is a fun hobby for all of us.

Cheers Kev.

 

[James Chesters]

Wowowowow... What's happening here ? :o

I just read Rick's PM talking about this, so I guess my opinion would be appreciated, especially since point scoring is always an important topic in motorsports championship (real or virtual), but I think we should not mess with it now, we raced "only" 2 rounds, but it is already the quarter of the championship that have been done. Now about the points system itself, I'm fine with it, and we don't need to have more points scorer IMO... Actually because I have a solution for showing drivers who haven't scored any point, without making this more difficult or time-consuming for organisers. And also, without relying with GPCOS (I don't know whether you want to use it though).

I want to say that you can do many things with MS Excel... And actually, I already made an "automatic" points standings excel for my other "project" (a French-speaking manager game), I can provide it to the organizers, I just need to do some modifications to adapt it to RDRC (especially adding more sheets for both classes), all you'll have to do then, is to put the finishing positions, and to click on a button.

If the organisers are interested, I would need to know what Excel version you are using (very important, since an Excel 2007/2010 file won't work in Excel 2003).

 

[Damien Jones]

I say leave things as they are for now; changing scoring during a season is bound to create more trouble than it's worth, especially for those who take this quite seriously. While it would be nice to grab a point following a good drive (haven't done that yet!), it's not my motivation for playing.
It is great to see such productive discussion though, it's astounding how much the Rally 'fraternity' here has grown!
An increase in classes for Round 3 definitely gets my vote too.

 

[James Knowles]

In the end I'm not really sure if I'm a big fan of doing so either, just giving you a different point of view - also we need the feedback from drivers a tad lower in the results, since it's them we are thinking about discussing it (I already got 1 point ).

Here I am

Keep things as it is for this season-changes for next season.

 

[Rick Bamford]

Very Interested James, Senad is the one that puts the whole time sheet and points tables together. Talk to him about it.

Ok, maybe its time for me to way in here as we are having a balance of views now. I have said I know my views will offend people, and while i will put them in the nicest way i can they will no doubt still not be the most popular for everyone. It is important to remember that while I have very firm views on what I think should happen and why, this championship is being run FOR and BY everyone.

I believe that the points system as it is now incourages drivers to try harder to finish in the top ten (either outright or in champions league) and to offer points further down the order would take away from that. It would allow drivers to not try so hard and still get rewarded. to me, that is NOT what a championship is about. If you can get points for finishing 15th or 20th is finishing 1st really worth fighting for?

My opinion is not to chnage anything this season but to make more classes available for season 3. If you MUST change the points system, only do it for the champions league. We only have 16 drivers that HAVE to drive in Premier league, the rest do it becuase they WANT to. As we only have two leagues and everyone else can run is the Champions league we can offer more points there if we MUST.

But I would ask, why are you here? What is your first priority in driving in the RDRC. Is it to win? is it to have others say well done? or is it because you enjoy driving Richard Burns Rally?

Some people have mentioned that in the real world drivers do this becuase they are paid etc................ RUBBISH. Only the top 1 percent of rally drivers worldwide earn money from it, the rest of us (yes, I am a REAL LIFE RALLY DRIVER) do it for the fun and enjoyment of competition. And COMPETITION is the key here. Maybe I see things very VERY differently to others here, but the whole reason I COMPETE is to test myself against the best. If I am not fast enough there is only one answer for me..............................get BETTER. If we start handing out points to most of the drivers then what is the point of trying to win. You can get points for coming 25th, why try harder. Competition is there to make us better and faster. It was said in the cartoon movie "the Incredibles" "They keep creating new ways to celebrate mediocrity". Do we really want a championship that doesn't challenge you to your fullest?

I ALSO belive that offering points further down the order will mean that you can have a bad rally and still gain points. You should not be able to do this. If we were offering points further than 10th I would say we NEED to re-instate the rule about retiring from a rally if you retire from from a stage. But then again i have said before i want to run with Realistic damage or more, first stage retirement to exclude you from the results, and longer events.

Ok, thats enough from me.

 

[Damien Jones]

Maybe I see things very VERY differently to others here, but the whole reason I COMPETE is to test myself against the best. If I am not fast enough there is only one answer for me..............................get BETTER.

No, not so differently. I second that

 

[Senad Subasic]

If the organisers are interested, I would need to know what Excel version you are using (very important, since an Excel 2007/2010 file won't work in Excel 2003).

2007, mailto: senad.subasic@gmail.com :thanks:

 

[Ludovic Cogotti]

Same thing for me, the system point can stay like it is. I sign up with this and I will race in these condition.
We are just at the beginning of the season, we will have a lot of time to score points but it is sure that the level has increased and it is more difficult than the last season (but that is the interest of a championship = challenge).
We can rediscuss about it for the next season when we will have an idea of the number of drivers (number of categories and scoring point system) or maybe see the standing at mid season.

 

[Łukasz Demolin]

I must say, that if anyone figures out a way to compile the results according to positions achieved in rallies (the way Formula 1 tables on Wikipedia are done) by for example writing a 200-line Spreadsheet formula I don't think more positions should be awarded. I wanted to score more drivers only for this purpose, as it allows for a very comfortable way of sorting the classification while including more drivers while doing so.

 

[Terri Buenaflor]

I think I missed that there are 2 categories here in RDRC while I'm posting for the change in points system where in my mind 50+ drivers compete for the top 10 to score points but I was wrong because there are categories namely, the premier and the champions league where not all drivers are fighting for the first 10th just to score points, because there is a champions league where another battle is fought for a points. So as Rick mentioned only the champions league are the one that is a bit congested where points will be hard to earn.

 

[Łukasz Demolin]

As for sorting - stay tuned, I'm onto something after spending some time with OO BASIC.

 

[Terri Buenaflor]

As for sorting - stay tuned, I'm onto something after spending some time with OO BASIC.

Nice, good luck! I/we hope you get some good progress with it

 

[Łukasz Demolin]

Lo and behold, classification problems seems to be solved! I figured out the way to sort by points, then by places (all 53 of them right now, will automatically adjust when there's need for more), and if all that is tied - by entry list position.

[click to make it big]​

After doing that I'm taking Rick side of the discussion. More classes is still a go for me in the future of course .

 

[Dariusz Swiderski]

I see some of you missing the point i was trying to make. Its never been about the points, its all about the feel of COMPETITION.

I believe that the points system as it is now incourages drivers to try harder to finish in the top ten (either outright or in champions league) and to offer points further down the order would take away from that. It would allow drivers to not try so hard and still get rewarded. to me, that is NOT what a championship is about.

The level of skills in our championship is much wider then in real world, some may try as hard as hell but will never see a single point in the entire run. For some thats maybe ok, for others it will be very demotivating. Example: someone runs in every single event but not scoring a single point, then someone else joins for only 1 round and scores points, that guy will be placed higher then the guy who puts his time and efford in every single round. How about that for motivation? And what if one of the top guys have a bad run ( DNF on stage etc.. ), what would motivate him to continue in that round when he knows he has lost the chance to finish in the top 10?

If you can get points for finishing 15th or 20th is finishing 1st really worth fighting for?

If we start handing out points to most of the drivers then what is the point of trying to win. You can get points for coming 25th, why try harder.

Because if you try harder you finish higher, so you will get more points etc..... again, it doesn't make any sense to me..
C'mmon Rick, its NOT about the points, its always about finishing as high as one can. I ( all of us ) would never drive just for the points and EVERYONE wants to win.....

Some people have mentioned that in the real world drivers do this becuase they are paid etc................ RUBBISH. Only the top 1 percent of rally drivers worldwide earn money from it, the rest of us (yes, I am a REAL LIFE RALLY DRIVER) do it for the fun and enjoyment of competition.

That proves my point, NOT everybody ( only Rick? ) here is a real life rally driver so other stimulants are needed. Like being able to see if one is having a fight in the championship standing. I've never suggested real life rally drivers are doing it for the money etc.., of course they're doing it for the thrill of the drive first and foremost, otherwise they wouldn't be a rally drivers. But we ( Rick excluded ) are NOT real life rally drivers and is soo much easier for us to get demotivated and give up. You have missed my point here completely.

And COMPETITION is the key here. Maybe I see things very VERY differently to others here, but the whole reason I COMPETE is to test myself against the best. If I am not fast enough there is only one answer for me..............................get BETTER.

Thats exactly my point too, but many will never reach the top 10, so what about the feel of competition for them? Not allowed? I say it again: its not just the top drivers who make the championship tick, its the slow guys too. Why wouldn't allowed them to have a direct competition with similar skilled driver in the championship?

I ALSO belive that offering points further down the order will mean that you can have a bad rally and still gain points. You should not be able to do this.

Why not?? If you have a bad rally you will get A LOT less points, whats wrong with that?? Is that unfair to someone who finishes much higher?? I don't think so.

I think I missed that there are 2 categories here in RDRC while I'm posting for the change in points system where in my mind 50+ drivers compete for the top 10 to score points but I was wrong because there are categories namely, the premier and the champions league where not all drivers are fighting for the first 10th just to score points, because there is a champions league where another battle is fought for a points. So as Rick mentioned only the champions league are the one that is a bit congested where points will be hard to earn.

You are NOT wrong there, there are 50+ drivers competing for top 10 spots in outright championship and only 25? + drivers in champions league, if we are to make any changes its the outright which should get the piority ( but preferably both ).

Guys, this whole discussion is NOT about points, it is about rewarding and motivating the slower guys too. Many will not score a single point and they wont even be able to compare themselfs to the other non-scoring guys as they all will have 0 points. Thats simply wrong and demoralizing. Many championships here at RD gives points to whole field, does that make the top guys lose to the lesser guys? And what about the example i mentioned earlier, does the guy who misses a few rounds but scores deserves a better position then someone who is competing every round but doesn't get to the top 10 once? I don't think so.
I,m sure we can work out a system which rewards handsomely the top positions but also gives something for the not so fast guys. And we can implement worst score drop as well, for the odd non-show in 1 event. There are MANY possibilities / variations.