RD Rankings (General Discussion)

[Günthar Rowe]

My 10 cents (we don't have smaller coins in New Zealand) worth.

I understand the -10 points for a DNF in general. But, like my last race, I was DNF'd on L1 by another driver and the other driver continued and scored points while I lost 10. It's hard enough to firstly be taken out, secondly to not score any points, but to actually loose points is killer when not at fault. The last two races I came 13th of 19 and DNF in the second race. Nett points result for the 2 race event was -10 (I assume I got 0 points for my 13th which is a little sad too). Makes me wonder why I follow the points/rankings.

To date I now have 10 DNF's and therefore lost 100 points. Of these I know I was at fault for 5 and that the other 5 where due to being taken out of the race, once on purpose:frown: and the rest by pure accident or by poor driving on others behalf.

 

[Ryan Callan]

Which is why, if somebody takes you out, you report it!

Then they lose points if they were deemed to be at fault and unsporting.

Being taken out is just one of those things - nobody in real racing gets the points they might have gained if they were taken out by someone else. Who's to say they/you wouldn't DNF by yourself later?

Just like disconnections - not your fault but tough luck. Setting precedents opens up all kinds of cans of worms that is impossible to police. The cure is worse than the disease.

 

[Günthar Rowe]

Which is why, if somebody takes you out, you report it!

For the race that was intentional, it was reported and action was taken.

Being taken out is just one of those things - nobody in real racing gets the points they might have gained if they were taken out by someone else.

You don't loose points in RL for not completing a race, you just get 0.

 

[Dave Stephenson]

I'm willing to listen to suggestions of an simple and elegant way to deal with it, but after months of thought and suggestions from people the fact is that none has been forthcoming. Policing it would be far too much work and would open up the system to abuse imo.

I know it's unfortunate that points are lost when it's not your fault, I've been on the losing end of that too and that is why the bonus for winning and the cost for a DNF where reduced to limit the impact. the original cost for a DNF was 20 points, which was a real sting if it was not your fault. since the 10 point level has been set there has been little in the way of complaint about it so it seems to be a relatively acceptable level to minimise the cost when it's not your fault but also to act as something of a deterrent to people quitting.

I realise that in reality there would not be a points cost to a person having a DNF, but there would be other costs. Financial costs of not receiving performance related sponsorship pay, and end of season payouts where you finished lower than you may have done due to the DNFs.

Unfortunately there is a limited amount of data available in the race logs, and we've had to tailor the system to be as fair as we possibly can with the information that's available. I know it feels harsh when your on the receiving end, as I say, I've been there too, but for the moment at least it's a necessary evil in order to have the rankings at all.

 

[Günthar Rowe]

Thanks Dave, I was just giving feedback and understand the issues. I don't see a way to enforce it easily. It's more that in the last 2 race event, I completed race one on the lead lap etc and DNF the second and still ended up with -10 as a total score for the two races. Maybe there needs to be a base score for a completed race?

I have been in some leagues that scored the same system player vs player as here, but in there was points for all that complete the race + also for lead lap + fastest lap etc... That's a lot, but you get the idea...

 

[Dave Stephenson]

Some interesting ideas there for sure. Im working on the back end stuff pretty rapidly at the moment to decouple things and allow easier addition of new features, scoring rules etc. I'll deffinitely put those on the list of things to test out when it's ready to go.

 

[Mattia Gottardi]

...... but in there was points for all that complete the race + also for lead lap + fastest lap etc... That's a lot, but you get the idea...

+1 it's seems a good idea!!! if is not to hard to implement and if there aren't problems would be nice have some bonus for complete the race or for the fast lap during the race!!! IMHO this are good idea that can improve the system quality maybe!!!

 

[Günthar Rowe]

@Dave, again, the system is very cool, and I applaud the massive effort it takes to make this sort of FREE ranking work. Big Thanks to all involved! I'm just bouncing ideas here, not throwing stones. If anything can be added, bonus!

 

[Ryan Callan]

Maybe there needs to be a base score for a completed race?

When the system was first in place we did have this.

In an ELO situation even amounts of points are lost and won (theoretically). During the first version of the rankings, only points you won counted, discarding those you lost (half-ELO). This meant that those who compete in more races would move ever faster away from those who don't have time to compete constantly.

So, after discussing it with Eric, I suggested we go to 'three-quarter-ELO'. The points you lost were now factored in but if your score would have been minus and if you finished the race it was rounded up to 0, so you couldn't lose points, thus still 'rewarding' for finishing but negating some of the advantage that others who competing more often had.

So, in summary, my point is, if you have a base score for finishing a race, all you will see is those who compete more often move further and further away from the pack, so all benefit is completely negated, as points are, of course, relative and you end up with a worse situation.

 

[Dave Stephenson]

RD Rankings (Development)

As I've mentioned previously in the other thread I've recently been working on improvements and new features for the ranking system. I'll chart the progress and additions here as I complete them and offer up some pages for testing as things get completed. As well as new things I am also consolidated the existing system with a view to finally saying goodbye to the 'beta' tag.

Since my head decided it wouldn't work last night I ditched the code for a while and worked on overhauling the user interface and finally getting towards better integration with vBulletin. I've put up a copy of the work so far at the link below for anyone who would like to take a look, the data is not live at the moment. It's not an awful long way from what exists already and there are some blank spaces where you should see new things appearing over the coming weeks. In the meantime if you have a couple of browsers handy on your machine I'd appreciate if you could take a look in them all and let me know if you encounter any layout issues in the general discussion thread here -> http://www.racedepartment.com/drive...eta/43592-rd-rankings-general-discussion.html

The page still needs the Current Rank and Points scores adding to the top section. The graphs need to be of equal size.

There will be additional graphs too. As you can see there are 'lifetime stats' and 'this month' stats. There will also be a third level set at 3 months. I hope the addition of this will allow people to better evaluate their progress and improvement over their time in the racing club.

http://www.racedepartment.com/ranktest.html

 

[Mattia Gottardi]

right Ryan i didn't think about that point!!!! thx for explain it!!

and what do you think about a bonus for the guy that do the fast lap or lead lap or something like that??

 

[Ryan Callan]

Lead lap no - fastest lap, why not.

 

[Chris Butcher]

Its ok saying if you didnt finish the race you wouldnt lose points, however you wouldnt lose points for a DNF either...

*EDIT* i realise this has already been adressed, I'll stop posting whle drunk

 

[Dave Stephenson]

lol Chris

Remember guys, that the rankings is designed to embody the essence of the racing clubs values too. Although we all like to compete and win it is supposed to be a club and it's still considered important that people try to finish races even when things are tough. When the DNF scoring was initially implemented there was a sharp fall in DNFs. Although they have risen a little since then I think overall it has been a success.

As for points for things like leading a lap or top spot in qually, they are things I have given a lot of thought to over the past months and will do some testing with different values for them as I work on re-organising things under the hood. They will not be rolled out without testing fully, but I think my main point with it is that I would like wherever possible that the points that get awarded for them come out of the existing points pots. ie, any bonus points for fastest lap should probably come from the win bonus pot. The idea behind this being that rather than making more points available which would ultimately begin to stretch the gap from top to bottom even further, the points that are available get spread more and are achievable by a wider group of people on the grid.

 

[Mattia Gottardi]

i'm back with an another idea!!! XD
like you can have your points reduced by the penalties (in the "Infractions" section in your ranking profile) what do you think to have a section called "Awards" where you can receive some bonus points for finishing official leagues in good positions???? atm if you finish a league you, usually,earn only the glory.... in this way you will have also a little awards in form of bonus points on your rank!!

i know that upgrade all the results and test if the system works will be a long work, because in almost a year here at racedepartment there were a lot of leagues, but with the help of the admins and of the staff, is possible do a topic where admins&staffleagues write all the official finish results of a league (or something else that can have a bonus point)......it became like the topic of the penalties!!!

we can have bonus points different for every types of leagues and based on the numbers of drivers, on the numbers of races of the leagues and if there are other division....

for example in leagues with 14 drivers only top 3 in the final standing will receive bonus point (1st=20 points 2nd=14pt 3rd=7pt, but it also depends on the numbers of races of the leagues.....for example if the leagues have only 5 races the points are the one that i write, while if the leagues have 10 races than at that point we will hadd the 50%, so 30 for 1st etc or something like that, this are only examples)
in a league with 24 drivers top 5 will receive the bonus point and the 1st will receive more points, in league until 34 drivers the first 8 and in leagues with more that 35 the top 10 drivers.......... if there is adivision system than div1 will received a full points bonus, div2 3/4, div 3 1/2 and so on.......

maybe also have some points bonus also for finishing in good position in a mini series leagues, and also maybe add some awards to the guys that wins enduro races for example for an enduro of 3h with 24 drivers the first will receive a bonus of 10 points, 2nd 6pt and the 3rd 3pt
.........

i hope that i explain my idea well, if not, and if you have doubt just ask!!!!!

now my question is: what do you think about it??? is it doable or not????

P.S.: it will not change too much the idea at the base of the ranking system, because is like the penalty system, but in this way you will have some points added instead of reduced and usually leagues takes some months to be complete and usually there is only 1 enduro races in a month, and mini series takes also a lot of weeks usually, so you receive bonus points only if you spend a lot of time and only "una tantum" and not every week........

there is only the problem that all the bonus system must be calibrate well for every types of leagues or special events that will have bonus points like awards!!

P.P.S.: in this way you can have also some hawards for leagues with games that are not official supported by the ranking system, like netkar for example

 

[Dave Stephenson]

Achievements or trophies is something I have given thought to and have drafted up a few ideas of how it might work. Nothing though will be based on league positions inside the rankings.

The decision was taken early that disciplinary actions (read infractions) for leagues would still only affect the league. Given that that is the case I don't see a point, at least soon anyway, where leagues also contribute positive points for the overall series results, but anything that is implemented at a single race level would count for league races too as it does now.

My main thinking about the trophies type thing is to have a range of things so that there are things achievable by everyone no matter what their rank. Thinks such as maintaining a low DNF ratio or finishing a run of 5-10 races where you always place above your qually spot. Of course I have not tested how these can effect the ranks yet or had a full discussion with the rest of the staff, but I see those things as a definite possibility.

on the point of nkp. NKP will be coming to the rankings as will RBR.

 

[Ondrej Kapal]

Not sure if mentioned before but I wouldnt count any of league races into rankings, as far as leagues use mostly much different point system to suit itself, either penalties ("infractions") and all the way it is managed by some organisator who can apply any of this by some special restrictions ... I want to say that this current ranking system would be used only for Club events where are used the same rules for each race

at least in my opinion

 

[Ondrej Kapal]

on the point of nkp. NKP will be coming to the rankings as will RBR.

jesus, it wont apply backwards will it? I pray not, because I had numbers of events where I gave up a lot of times because of technique issue or just because I was doing "fun"... means a lot of retirements, and really a lot when I didnt count with this rankings

 

[Dave Stephenson]

NKP wont be but RBR results have been logged since January

 

[Ondrej Kapal]

God save me I guess I will have to repair some of my DNFs then... I hope you use very clever DNF system because I cant imagine how you could use it fairly because of different length of SSs mixed surfaces etc. or when you jump for the event only for 2 SSs, and you can then leave etc.