RD Le Mans Series Season 6 (rFactor 2)

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Daiman Patel

rFactor 2 Technical Assistant
I think you misunderstood me completely. I wanted to know especially from GTE drivers at the lower end what was their motivation to run P15 in GTE rather than to have more of a chance in GTC...

Nope, I got you! :D The reason why I chose to run GTE entries is because the Corvette is a bit of a handful to drive, and in the time we had to prepare between races I would have struggled to get up to pace - I wouldn't have been competitive, nor would I have had much fun driving around completely on my own, fearful that I might accidentally dab the throttle a bit too much in the rain or when exiting a corner and slam the car into the wall. :whistling: By driving in the GTE class I could push a bit harder to try and reach the lap-times of the faster guys, knowing that I could keep control of the car by altering the setup accordingly so that I felt comfortable in the car and could enjoy myself. That's not to say I wouldn't have drive if the Corvette was the only GT car available - I probably would have still given it a go, but been terrible in the process just because of the way in which I drive - with pretty heavy feet! :p

Since switching to my new wheel I feel as though I have improved, and become much smoother with the throttle, brakes and steering, and this allowed me to fairly quickly get the hang of the Corvette when practising for Spa, but I was still a few seconds off the pace. This, combined with the sheer amount of concentration and effort needed to keep going for a couple of stints, would have been too much for me, and I simply wouldn't have enjoyed the race due to frustration. As Jean-Simon said, it's like a wild animal and must be treated with respect; I think I just need more time to tame the beast. If the calendar wasn't so short and compact then I might have been OK in the Corvette, as I would have had more time to get used to the car, and practise. Therefore we switched to GTE, which still requires concentration and effort, but a different kind that I'm more used to, since the focus is less about trying to keep the car facing in the right direction from my perspective.

I completely agree that the problem with the URD cars is you are always pushing and forcing the car to its limits to try and achieve fast lap-times, rather than driving smoothly and consistently to get the most out of the car. If I could drive like Freddy, or a number of the other quick drivers, in that "graceful" manner it would be great, and I'd probably have no issues with driving the Corvette and actually being competitive (even if that means I'm only mid-pack). Unfortunately my current style of driving isn't really suited to the Corvette, but is adequate for the URD cars, hence my decision. Of course I would like to continue improving my skills so that one day I can beat Freddy! ;):roflmao:
 
I must add that the latest update for the corvette have make it a little more easy to drive, its still like a wild animal, but after that the tires start to be in temp, it start to make sense :)

I am curious to see if the setup make a so huge difference for the corvette... at spa we were off pace. was it due to our driving ? was it due to bad setup ? I don't really know seriously... but we were still trying to drive the same way as before.

for BOP of the car, you should give it a try, but I have one things to say that you must NOT do

in another league, they tried to do that... they used the corvette, the GTR and the isi SLS (the safety car) that they modded to become all GT1. I think they have changed everything on the cars... it was not the ISI's cars anymore... they had WAY to much grip, no understeer, no feeling, no life, no fear...
If you want to understand what I mean, take the Isi corvette, put 100% brake pressure, brake balance at 60-40 (front-rear), ABS off, TC off, go on a green sebring at the straight before the hairpin and jump hard on the brake, you will certainly lock you front tires (maybe your four tires). With that MOD, the tires NEVER locked. Now do the hairpin at mid turn, on first gear (or second) and jump on full throttle. you will surely do a spin. With that mod it was not spinning at all, not even a little correction.

They just tried to do TOO much thing to make the cars to do a similar lap time... but the saouls of the cars where lost in the process.. with the sense of "be careful" that come with the ISI's cars.
Next seasons, they are trying another approach, using different ISI car tuning them to gT3 using the files from the ISI Camaro but keeping the suspension file from the "native" car.
I will probably test this car next week. But I think it should work... anyway.
hope your test are conclusive :)
 
I tested that mod as well and found it awful. My approach would be to go by reducing the engine power at least on the GT1 and maybe reduce the aero available while still keeping the original balance. Weight can also help and at least in the Corvette 200kg more didnt change the basic characteristics so much. I think weight is more for the fine tuning and you could use fuel tank size plus refueling times for the fine tuning like they do in the VLN. It wouldnt be an easy process, but the only one which makes sense to me, so every car still feel like it does.
Cant wait to try it out :)
 
I tested that mod as well and found it awful. My approach would be to go by reducing the engine power at least on the GT1 and maybe reduce the aero available while still keeping the original balance. Weight can also help and at least in the Corvette 200kg more didnt change the basic characteristics so much. I think weight is more for the fine tuning and you could use fuel tank size plus refueling times for the fine tuning like they do in the VLN. It wouldnt be an easy process, but the only one which makes sense to me, so every car still feel like it does.
Cant wait to try it out :)

You'll need to wait until there is a new build. Because at the moment with build 880: installing a update package or BOP package will uninstall the original content. :O_o:

A workaround is to release a complete new package. Wich means asking for premissions and give credits etc...

Using/installing update packages in build 880 is currently broken.
 
You'll need to wait until there is a new build. Because at the moment with build 880: installing a update package or BOP package will uninstall the original content. :O_o:

A workaround is to release a complete new package. Wich means asking for premissions and give credits etc...

Using/installing update packages in build 880 is currently broken.
Until I am able to start ISI should have a new build out :D
 

David O'Reilly

A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
Just my opinion of course but the Nissan GTR GT1 would not appeal to me if it was specced down to GT3 performance. There is already a Nissan GTR there for that.
(why hasnt ISI done a GT3 Nissan BTW?)
The appeal for me of the GT1 is that its fast and a little wild but due to great feedback its manageable. With performance somewhere between a GT2 and an LMP.
The subtle tweaks with ISI's last update lifted this car a level in enjoyment.

However I could always be surprised and convinced.
 

David O'Reilly

A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
Thank you David, I will try it later at home.

My biggest concern about the Lola, is the narrow space you have to move with the setup. The car doesn't allow you to make a different strategy i.e. using less wing. I think that's because of the tire poor grip. May be with a bit more of tire grip, you could play using less wing to get less drag and better final speed as an option.



That Mazda without the problem at low speed will be a blast.
One issue is that the car is already ever so slightly faster than real life. So any enhancements would be to slow it down rather than speed it up.
edit: did some research to back this up. At Spa the car did a fastest lap of 2:08.9 over the weekend and its best laps in all sessions were 2:08.9 to 2:11. Our car did a high 2:04 in the hands of the top drivers. source
http://www.fiawec.com/races/6-hours-of-spa-francorchamps/results-and-chrono.html


Quite a lot of testing occurred before the last physics change designed to make the car more drive-able. With Stefans approval Frederic Schornstein took the lead on it and several other drivers did some specific testing for him. The result was much improved low speed handling and low speed corner exit.
IMO its quite authentic as this car has a lot of aero, but then I wouldn't really know as I've not driven one.
If anyone needs a quick dose
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnK6jhaIQ3c
 
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Daniel Almeida

Ajira Racing
I think you misunderstood me completely. I wanted to know especially from GTE drivers at the lower end what was their motivation to run P15 in GTE rather than to have more of a chance in GTC, which can have several reasons and I dont know them, so I asked for them and got a reply already. In VWEC 2013 we had three classes as well, but the numbers were more equally spread between the classes. That was the thing I wanted to know first. My second idea was to try and create a BOP, which allows us to use the ISI GT and Apex SLS in one class. In the club races we ran all ISI GTs, but then drivers 10 drivers were spread on 4 diffrent cars, which of course was sometimes not ideal as they were basically classes and every driver has its favorite among the GTs David O'Reily loves the GTR, I like the Corvette and Miroslav likes the Camaro wouldnt it be great, if we could actually race each other in these club events?
I wanted to know if drivers are interested in such a "Mod" before I invest time in it. Not even kmowing if it is at all possible to balance the cars without ruining the physics.
It is not about if we should then run it or whatever it only exists as an idea, but I think it is always nice to have options and currently for a mixed GT field we have one option and that is the URD mod and I think it would be nice to have some proper alternatives as competition is always better for the customer in this case the simracing community.

I hope I communicated my intention clearly this time.

I think, I understood you just fine :) .
Personally, I've never seen any Simulator narrow the gap between the top and the bottom of the talent pool. Sometimes when you get a sim with really weird physics (say iRacing) you can have a little bit of that effect, but even then you won't magically make slow people fast.

The second point I hear all the time here is that some people seem to think that the URD cars have some sort of "unrealistic" behaviour that is not present in the ISI cars. I've no issues with both and find the ISI Corvette extremely easy to drive, be it slow or fast.

That said, the base behaviour of the URD mod reminds me of Assetto Corsa, which reminds me of a real life car. If you want to drive around 5 sec off the pace, it's pretty easy. Getting to two seconds off the pace, it starts getting tricky. And when you finally approach the last second, it starts getting scary. That's the behaviour of modern race cars and that's what I personally like to drive. Tastes do vary and it's perfectly fine to like something else. I mean, a lot of people like the garbage that iRacing is nowadays and will argue to death, that it drives like a real car. But as a whole, the URD mod has been extremely popular here and elsewhere and I really don't get the urge to change a winning team. And last but not least, not everyone drives "to have a chance to win". I for one find my enjoyment in the challenge of competition. The stronger the competition, the better.
 

Dennis

RedShift Racing
My approach would be to go by reducing the engine power at least on the GT1 and maybe reduce the aero available while still keeping the original balance. Weight can also help and at least in the Corvette 200kg more didnt change the basic characteristics so much. I think weight is more for the fine tuning and you could use fuel tank size plus refueling times for the fine tuning like they do in the VLN.
This might be a doable approach for club racing, but for a league you can run into balance problems fairly easily.
To test these things you need to do a LOT of laps in each car after every change.
I recall the GT3 club at Suzuka where you said that the Ferraris had a disadvantage and were ~1-2s slower per lap. However in the end you switched to them, since they were actually slightly faster then the other cars :D

It might probably be easier to put ISI tires on an existing mod and adjust the suspension file (amongst other things) to fit the ISI FFB characteristics.
 
That is why I was thinking about making them GT3 spec as the Nissan GTR GT3 spec and a Chevrolet Corvette GT3 spec exist in real life and they dont look that much diffrent. Making them all GT2 spec would be weird I agree.
Regarding the physics I have no idea if it is possible, but based on our weight experiment I am pretty confident it is. I will test it sometime in 2015 :D
Except to anyone who knows his sportscar racing, a GT2 spec Corvette and GT3 spec Corvette look completely different, similar with the Nissan...yeah they are roughly the same shape, but are built with an entirely different build philosophy... so yeah, i don't quite aggree with that :) I know, it's just a visual, but as an endurance fan, one that is dear to my heart.

On the physics side, yes, i believe your initial tests might have looked promising, but once you start running events like these 6 hours, it's the small things in the .hdv, that start mattering in regards to cars beeing fairly balanced.
 
One issue is that the car is already ever so slightly faster than real life. So any enhancements would be to slow it down rather than speed it up.

More tire grip not necessary means faster lap times. More tire grip will give more feeling at the steering wheel, and with more tire grip you can get off the aero downforce of the cars. The result should be faster final speed and slower cornering. At Monza we got just 318 km/h instead near 340

I been tweaking rf2 physics too, and I tried this before. Look at this video, the driver downshift twice before T1, we been taking T1 almost flat in 5th. That's too much grip.


 
I just want to add a couple points about the urd cars aside from the physics debate.The mod has some bugs that need to be fixed.At spa after i did an esc after a crash and all the urd cars were then mostly invisible.I could only see a couple body panels and at certain angles almost nothing at all was visible.This does not happen with isi cars.Second the bumpers fall of way to easy leaving car parts laying on the track.In my mind i can't see why this mod would be used in future leagues until the problems are fixed.:)
 
I think, I understood you just fine :) .
Personally, I've never seen any Simulator narrow the gap between the top and the bottom of the talent pool. Sometimes when you get a sim with really weird physics (say iRacing) you can have a little bit of that effect, but even then you won't magically make slow people fast.

The second point I hear all the time here is that some people seem to think that the URD cars have some sort of "unrealistic" behaviour that is not present in the ISI cars. I've no issues with both and find the ISI Corvette extremely easy to drive, be it slow or fast.

That said, the base behaviour of the URD mod reminds me of Assetto Corsa, which reminds me of a real life car. If you want to drive around 5 sec off the pace, it's pretty easy. Getting to two seconds off the pace, it starts getting tricky. And when you finally approach the last second, it starts getting scary. That's the behaviour of modern race cars and that's what I personally like to drive. Tastes do vary and it's perfectly fine to like something else. I mean, a lot of people like the garbage that iRacing is nowadays and will argue to death, that it drives like a real car. But as a whole, the URD mod has been extremely popular here and elsewhere and I really don't get the urge to change a winning team. And last but not least, not everyone drives "to have a chance to win". I for one find my enjoyment in the challenge of competition. The stronger the competition, the better.
I dont want to change the "winning team", but wouldnt it be nice to have two GT classes, which are both full and more competetive? The nature of the URD cars as you said is, that it is hard to drive them in full pace, so it would be nice to have an attractive option for slower drivers. I personally think they are not a good option for slower drivers as they allow you to have a rubbish driving style and still be able to finish a stint. They will be slow, but they dont get punished as much as in other cars and the cars are more tricky to setup. Maybe we could even make it a development class where teams are provided setups and data. What I want in general is more faster drivers and more competition. That is why TXL always picks up new non-alien drivers. For example @James Maskell was hopelessly off the pace in the Lola at Bahrain in a pre season event. Now he can get within one second of me in the Lola.
 
I dont want to change the "winning team", but wouldnt it be nice to have two GT classes, which are both full and more competetive? The nature of the URD cars as you said is, that it is hard to drive them in full pace, so it would be nice to have an attractive option for slower drivers. I personally think they are not a good option for slower drivers as they allow you to have a rubbish driving style and still be able to finish a stint. They will be slow, but they dont get punished as much as in other cars and the cars are more tricky to setup. Maybe we could even make it a development class where teams are provided setups and data. What I want in general is more faster drivers and more competition. That is why TXL always picks up new non-alien drivers. For example @James Maskell was hopelessly off the pace in the Lola at Bahrain in a pre season event. Now he can get within one second of me in the Lola.

Good idea!

But, even if it's a development class, if some day I become really fast but I want to stay in a Isi GT class, I want to be able to stay in that class :)
 
Good idea!

But, even if it's a development class, if some day I become really fast but I want to stay in a Isi GT class, I want to be able to stay in that class :)
Yes, I dont think you should kick the quick teams out. Just provide an easier playing field with less setup options and some support. Maybe some rules regarding driver combos. In GTE Am they have rules how many platinum, gold, silver etc. dirvers are allowed per car, but that would be a hard thing to do.
 

James Maskell

"Remember the name! Tommy Vercetti!"
. That is why TXL always picks up new non-alien drivers. For example @James Maskell was hopelessly off the pace in the Lola at Bahrain in a pre season event. Now he can get within one second of me in the Lola.
Still trying to find that time though. :p And make less mistakes but i have definitely improved since my first rf2 online race at Bathurst back in the end of June.
 

David O'Reilly

A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
More tire grip not necessary means faster lap times. More tire grip will give more feeling at the steering wheel, and with more tire grip you can get off the aero downforce of the cars. The result should be faster final speed and slower cornering. At Monza we got just 318 km/h instead near 340

I been tweaking rf2 physics too, and I tried this before. Look at this video, the driver downshift twice before T1, we been taking T1 almost flat in 5th. That's too much grip.
Some sector times might help in this discussion too.I will try to find some.
edit
1st discovery: top speed at Lemans was 315kph
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/03_2013/03_LE MANS/12_TEST DAY/201306091400_TEST PRACTICE 2/14_BestTopSpeed_TEST PRACTICE 2.PDF
and Spa 295kph
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Re...0_Race/06_Hour 6/15_EventMaxiumSpeed_Race.PDF
 
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James Maskell

"Remember the name! Tommy Vercetti!"
James you are fast enough that you had Stefan very focussed and our team on the edge of our seats at Spa for the final stint :thumbsup:
I was asleep at that time :p :D If i was awake i might have been put back in the car but who knows. After the first stint i really had to go to bed cause i had an exam on monday and i didn't want to be tired for it.
 
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