RaceDepartment Rally Championship - Season 3 Draft Rules

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the cutting rule was aimed to point which Senad mentioned... It is on admins to consider if the cut is givin you big advance or not - for example Aaron's screens are clearly out of the rule, because driving this way will only cost you time and wont give any advance - tarmac is faster than the environment around :D Pribram is very good example of cutting track... after R5 tonight I will provide some screens too for understand
 
The cutting rule is because it is possible in some stages to take highly un-realistic and un-sporting cuts in some places. These are things you only know about from LOTS of practicing and finding where you can go and where you can't, something you just can't do in a real rally. It is also something that depends on personal opionion. Some people may believe you could make a certain cut in real life while another says no. It becomes unfair for everyone and we start loosing drivers. There are only 3 options for this as far as i can see.

1/ remake the stages so these cuts don't exist. (rallyesim can look into this but we can't)
2/ Have a rule that means you can drive a stage limiting the amount you can go off the road so it is fair for everyone. (this is what rallyesim have and so do we)
3/ Allow any and all cuts and don't worry about if it is fair or realistic. (if we do this you will need to find a new director because I would not be involved anymore)

Without listing EVERY cut on EVERY stage and telling you all if it is legal or not the easiest thing is to have this rule about 1 wheel over the raod at all times. The reason we will have 2 of the directors having to AGREE on if it is an illegal cut on not is because sometimes you are out of control and can't help it.

As for the grading system and points tables. There will be a championship for the following

Outright - Drivers from ALL car classes and ALL driver grades
Production Cup - Drivers from grades 1, 2 & 3 in N4 & N4_S2000 cars
Lights - Drivers from grades 2 & 3 in Lights cup cars
Rookie - Drives from grades 3 & 4 in N3 cars
Grade 2 - All Grade 2 drivers in Production, Outright 2, and Lights cars
Grade 3 - All Grade 3 drivers in Lights and N3 cars
Grade 4 - All Grade 4 drivers in N3 cars
Teams championship
 
Nice to see there are some plans for next season. I would gladly take part if I still have time for this by then.

About car classes, don't you think that having 4 of them(5 if you count outright 1 and 2) is a bit excessive? I'm not sure if there would be enough people to fill them all nicely and equally(-ish). Especially the N3 class, for which I don't know if there would be enough interrest.

Classes wise, the whole system look a bit complicated, but if it can work, then why not. Only one thing, I really am not liking mandatory class switches during the season, this would mess some class championship for sure.

Also, isn't it a bit unfair for class 2 people to have WRC 99/02 and WRC 08/09 in the same championship(outright)? I mean, the 08/09 cars are supposed to be faster, no?

No Irish rally BTW? Too bad, it was my favorite so far this season.

Last thing. I find a bit hard to focus on 12/15 stages in one evening. So I had an idea, what about separating each rally into 2 legs and allow drivers to run legs on different days? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this wouldn't require any extra session, drivers would just have to leave the server after leg 1 for their first session, then skip all leg 1 stages in their second session. AFAIK the only main drawback is that leg 2 weather wouldn't be kept secret.
 
So I had an idea, what about separating each rally into 2 legs and allow drivers to run legs on different days? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this wouldn't require any extra session, drivers would just have to leave the server after leg 1 for their first session, then skip all leg 1 stages in their second session. AFAIK the only main drawback is that leg 2 weather wouldn't be kept secret.

Yann, I'm pretty sure that wont work as you wish. The Server Sessions are only open for a fixed period (enough to allow drivers to complete the rally with a few breaks). It wouldn't be available still on the next day.

To make that idea work, I'm almost certain that we would need to setup two Sessions, one each day.
 
Yann, I'm pretty sure that wont work as you wish. The Server Sessions are only open for a fixed period (enough to allow drivers to complete the rally with a few breaks). It wouldn't be available still on the next day.

To make that idea work, I'm almost certain that we would need to setup two Sessions, one each day.

No, I mean, the drivers doing that would have to join two session. First he joins a random session(for example, EU3), then leave once he has done leg 1, then joins EU4 the day after to complete leg 2. I don't think there would be any problem with timing in this configuration. Then for the results you'd have to take EU3(or whatever session he was in) times for leg 1, and EU4 times for leg 2, and calculate the overall time manually. This might represent a bit of extra work for the admins, but I'm not really sure how the results are done at the moment anyway.
 
Not getting into a long explanation - the typical RDRC rally is <1 hour of actual driving. It's pretty much the same as a regular league race/club event here at RD. That's why I think that splitting it into 2 parts is too much (I've seen it done, but mostly with at least around 20 SS rallies. Also using the Czech plugin, which has a system implemented for it). Also in RSRBR it's a very messy method to do that.
 
I like the diversity of the car classes but, as Yann mentioned, are you not worried that you'll be able to fill each class with a respectable amount of drivers?

Also, you could do with re-writing the grade section, it's not very clear, particularly around Grade 2 criteria.
I've read it a bunch of times, I think I'd make Grade 2, but I'm not sure. :D
 
Not getting into a long explanation - the typical RDRC rally is <1 hour of actual driving. It's pretty much the same as a regular league race/club event here at RD. That's why I think that splitting it into 2 parts is too much (I've seen it done, but mostly with at least around 20 SS rallies. Also using the Czech plugin, which has a system implemented for it). Also in RSRBR it's a very messy method to do that.

IMO it's hard to compare track racing with rallying. You usually know a track by heart, and you can keep yourself on track in a very decent pace with minimal concentration. Unless a few exceptions like the Ring, race tracks are extremely forgiving, and a mistake(slide, etc) won't have much consequenses in most cases.

Rallying is very different. It requires maximum attention all the time. Unless you have hours and hours of training you will never know all stages totally, so this gives a huge place for improvisation. Most stages are extremely treacherous also. A few seconds of distraction and you might go a few centimeters too wide in a corner, have a huge crash and a potential retirement. So you need to give 100% all the time, and this can be very tirening over 14 stages or so.

I would say overall that I'm usually more exhausted after 1 hour of rallying than 2-3 hours on a "conventional" sim, if not more. But it might also be me still being new to the game.

Anyway this was just a random suggestion, the current format seems to work very well as it is, so it I wouldn't mind so much if we stay like that.
 
Ok guys,

I have been busy with work for the past couple of days so i haven't really been able to respond to anything to much. Here goes.

I understand it is hard to learn the stages if you are new to the game. However, there are 2 very easy ways to help you here.

The first is driving in as many RallyClub events as you can. I have said it before but it is the EASIEST way to learn the stages as well as lots of fun.

The second one takes some commitment from you but after doing this myself i KNOW it is worth it. Use the Dll pacenote editor and change the notes to suit you. For me, it took 1 hour to re-pacenote one stage, but I know I will be able to do it faster as I get used to the editor. The advantage is I will not have to drive this stage ever again not knowing it COMPLETELY. I now KNOW this stage ABSOLUTELY. I do have the advantage of real life experience of writing pacenotes though and that might make it easier. I am willing to help anyone that wants it though. Even if you have only ever driven the rallyschool stage before, repace noting the stages will make you as fast as your skills will let you the first time you drive the stage, and that is a fact. If you do it right then it will also not matter what mod is being used or what car you are driving.

Car Classes: Are there too many? How many drivers should we have in each class? You might be right that most people will still drive N4/S2000 or WRC cars. I say ask yourself; are you really fast enough RIGHT NOW to challenge the top guys in these cars, or would you be better off and have more fun driving something a little slower and fighting for a win? If you are driving a WRC car and finishing 20th and crashing all the time, maybe you need to work on your skills first before moving up to something faster.
I give you the chance now to drop down to a lower car class if you find you can't compete in a higher one. But you can't complain about it, it is your choice.

Some of you might remember the discussion that took place a couple of rounds ago about the drivers lower down not getting points or incentive to keep driving. Giving more car classes and adding the driver grade system means you are GETTING that incentive. This season you should really think about how fast you REALLY are, not how fast you think you SHOULD be. If most drivers do this HONESTLY, then I think we STILL don't have enough classes. If we end up with only 20-30 drivers competing next season then you are right, we have too many choices. But with 80 drivers as with this season, and drivers that think about their abilities then I think it is right and they might even stay for the whole season.

Mandatory garde changes: The only time a madatory change will happen is if you move 2 grades at once. If you join the championship for the first time driving an N3 car and finish in the top 10 grade 2 drivers then you are obviously too fast for the other grade 4 guys. It would be unfair to leave you there. The same with grade 3 drivers, if you can get into the top 10 OUTRIGHT in a lights cup car, you are too fast for grade 3, it is unfair to the other grade 3 drivers to leave you in grade 3. The madatory changes are ONLY there to make sure the lower grades are kept fair for the newer or less experienced drivers.

Older WRC/A8 cars: First of all, let me say this rule was discussed AT LENGTH by the team. It is a compromise of different opinions. The original rules didn't include these cars at all, I wanted to keep the top cars for the top drivers as a prize for hard work and good results.

It was raised that some drivers just want to drive WRC cars and thats all. For these drivers then it should not matter if they are scoring points, they simple want the chance to compete in WRC cars. I don't understand why they need a championship in this case, the RallyClub give the same amount of fun as that. I do not want to encourage this and that is why I they compete in the same car class as the outright guys. I still think allowing the grade 2 drivers to run WRC cars is a mistake. The A8 and older WRC cars should be as fast over the stages as N4/S2000 cars though, that is why they are limited.

Number of stages/Length of rallies: For me, the perfect length of a rally is one that takes the winner 3-4 hours driving time (basicly the whole day to finish the rally) however i know most of you would not enjoy this. It is normal for me to finish a championship round, then spend an hour or more testing for the next rally or just playing with other cars/stages/mods. Maybe i'm not normal, but I also know I'm not alone:wink:.

I wanted to make the championship a bigger challenge than the RallyClub that runs 8 stages each event. One of the reasons I think longer rallies are better is a similar reason as the one raised by Yann for shorter events. As with Rd5 of this season, I made a small mistake on SS2. With a short rally, that would have meant that I was no longer going to be able to challenge. With 12 stages left, I was able to fight back, taking a little time off my rivals stage by stage, if had not made another mistake latter in the event I might have finished 2nd instead of 4th. If you are running longer events then a small mistake won't end your challenge. Yes you have to keep working and concentrating for the whole rally, but so does the guy your fighting with.

Lastly. Yes Mr. Biscuts, you are Grade 2 at the moment;)

While we have had a number of questions for clarification of the rules so far, we have not seen many suggestions as to what changes should be made. This could be a good thing and mean they are right, but I think some people have ideas they haven't shared yet. Lets hear them!

The one thing I want everyone to consider when they give a suggestion is we want to make sure the champoinship is fair for drivers of many different skill levels and how do we make sure they stay for the whole season.
 
The mandatory grade changed has its own prons and cons. My thoughts are the driver choose what rally/grade he wants to race in and if he's too fast for that grade we cant do anything because afaik their will always be fast guy and a normal guy thats reality, think Levret(sorry if I have to mention you :D ) he's so fast almost 1min+ faster than the 2nd placer at the end of each event(check his record) and we can't do anything about it because we cant move him anywhere now, my point is that those who are in other grade should also be where they wan't to be even for the fast one and the only time we should move them is at the end of the season or if he/she want's to move up.

Its gonna be sad for lets say the Grade3 2nd fastest guy to be left behind by his rival who is the fastest in their class because he was move by force imo.

I think there should be a voting before Season 3 if the participants wants the mandatory grade change or not. - this is just my opinion for this rule draft.

-

About the different classes its the drivers choice maybe one class will end up with only 2 drivers then those 2 driver will decide for their own faith if they want to move to the next available class or they want to battle it out till the end, only problem is if 1 of them doesnt want to move and he's alone in that class :D
 
The second one takes some commitment from you but after doing this myself i KNOW it is worth it. Use the Dll pacenote editor and change the notes to suit you. For me, it took 1 hour to re-pacenote one stage, but I know I will be able to do it faster as I get used to the editor. The advantage is I will not have to drive this stage ever again not knowing it COMPLETELY. I now KNOW this stage ABSOLUTELY. I do have the advantage of real life experience of writing pacenotes though and that might make it easier. I am willing to help anyone that wants it though. Even if you have only ever driven the rallyschool stage before, repace noting the stages will make you as fast as your skills will let you the first time you drive the stage, and that is a fact. If you do it right then it will also not matter what mod is being used or what car you are driving.

Any chance someone could post a basic tutorial / guidance advice to help people get an idea how to get started on this. I don't mean explaining in full details, but at least something that might show us where to start. ie.
Do we just launch RBR.DLL from RSCenter?
Is the Pacenote DLL a separate program?
Is there any readme files available to show how to access it, including the needed keys to open the editor?

This would make a good contribution to the RBR Community and could be included with the Tutorials I have added to the Forum.
 
The mandatory grade changed has its own prons and cons. My thoughts are the driver choose what rally/grade he wants to race in and if he's too fast for that grade we cant do anything because afaik their will always be fast guy and a normal guy thats reality, think Levret(sorry if I have to mention you :D ) he's so fast almost 1min+ faster than the 2nd placer at the end of each event(check his record) and we can't do anything about it because we cant move him anywhere now, my point is that those who are in other grade should also be where they wan't to be even for the fast one and the only time we should move them is at the end of the season or if he/she want's to move up.

Your system is what we are using right now and it isn't working.

The issue Terri, is that that one fast guy that wants to stay driving a slow car could cost us LOTS of normal drivers. It is what we have happening right now and one of the reason we keep loosing drivers. We HAVE to change something. Your suggestion simply doesn't fix the issue. Yes there are always fast guys and slow guys, but in real life the fast guys WANT to move up not stay in the slower classes.

I have said it before that I would prefer to loose 1 Alien if it means we keep 10 normal drivers.

I think there should be a voting before Season 3 if the participants wants the mandatory grade change or not. - this is just my opinion for this rule draft.

I am willing to have a vote on this, but it needs to offer 2 options. What is the second option?

There is a read me file in the Dll fixup program in the RBR download section. You don't event need RSRBR to use it.

In brief you launch the Dll game from RScenter, then once you start a stage you press App-N and it gives you the pacenote editor on screen. You then use the mouse & keyboard to move, delete, edit, modifiy the current pacenotes. Press save as you go to make sure the changes stay(remember RBR has a time limit of 30mins for each stage.). When you are finished, you need to get out of the game, return to RS center and open the stage again to see your notes working. The stage needs to re-load before it loads your new notes.

This is very brief and only meant for those that want to have a look and try it out. I will try and put something more meaningful together shortly.
 
Your system is what we are using right now and it isn't working.

The issue Terri, is that that one fast guy that wants to stay driving a slow car could cost us LOTS of normal drivers. It is what we have happening right now and one of the reason we keep loosing drivers. We HAVE to change something. Your suggestion simply doesn't fix the issue. Yes there are always fast guys and slow guys, but in real life the fast guys WANT to move up not stay in the slower classes.

I have said it before that I would prefer to loose 1 Alien if it means we keep 10 normal drivers.

I see, we can't really help it when a person stop participating because they are competing with a fast people and don't want to fight till the end because its hard to beat them. BUT I agree that we must avoid this as much as possible.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the mandatory change of class is their to put all the "fast" guys to the top (WRC class) to place them where they will have a good competition? - in reality this is whats happening fast guys are hired by the team competing for the WRC :D

Its just that my only worry is for the 2nd and 3rd fastest guy in that grade because their main rival will be transfered to the next grade thus killing their competiton in-a-way.

I am willing to have a vote on this, but it needs to offer 2 options. What is the second option?

For me the options should be:

1. Yes I agree
2. No I don't - "with a Terms of Agreement" I (the participant name) will not complain if the class I'm in has a fast driver in it..- or something like that - sorry I'm not good at making an agreement :D
 
There is a read me file in the Dll fixup program in the RBR download section. You don't event need RSRBR to use it.

In brief you launch the Dll game from RScenter, then once you start a stage you press App-N and it gives you the pacenote editor on screen. You then use the mouse & keyboard to move, delete, edit, modifiy the current pacenotes. Press save as you go to make sure the changes stay(remember RBR has a time limit of 30mins for each stage.). When you are finished, you need to get out of the game, return to RS center and open the stage again to see your notes working. The stage needs to re-load before it loads your new notes.

This is very brief and only meant for those that want to have a look and try it out. I will try and put something more meaningful together shortly.

Thanks. :thumb:
I did a bit of searching.
There is a Readme file in the RBRDLL Folder of the Main RBR Game (after installation of RSRBR2011) which explains a bit more about the Pacenote Editor.
I've managed to get it up on screen but the actual editing process is a bit unclear to me so far (I'm old and useless as you already know :wink: ).

If this helps to solve some of the dodgy pacenotes, it will be a blessing.

EDIT: This topic should have it's own thread rather than clogging up this one.
 
Its just that my only worry is for the 2nd and 3rd fastest guy in that grade because their main rival will be transfered to the next grade thus killing their competiton in-a-way.

Look at the Grades again, this won't happen (focus on Classes, not Grades classification). The only car class restricted to slower guys is Rookie (N3) and the top driver tier is stripped of any FWD cars, but that's it. No matter what grade you are you can still fight with your rival in N4 for instance, as pretty much anyone can drive it. You can also compete with him in A8 machinery (either strictly A8 or WRC sub-class), as top 2 grades allow using those cars.

This isn't rushed, you know :).
 
I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO GET SOME FEEDBACK ON WHAT SESSION SUIT THE DIFFENENT TIME ZONES. WE CAN CHANGE THE TIMES OR EVEN CREATE ANOTHER STANDARD TIME ZONE IF IT IS NEEDED.

Look at the Grades again, this won't happen (focus on Classes, not Grades classification). The only car class restricted to slower guys is Rookie (N3) and the top driver tier is stripped of any FWD cars, but that's it. No matter what grade you are you can still fight with your rival in N4 for instance, as pretty much anyone can drive it. You can also compete with him in A8 machinery (either strictly A8 or WRC sub-class), as top 2 grades allow using those cars.

This isn't rushed, you know :).

Good point Lukasz, I should have mentioned that myself. This is why I need other great guys working with me, it helps point out things I've missed, lol.

Warren: I will start a new thread in the RDRC forum, but maybe it would be good to have it in the mian RBR thread instead. I am sure drivers that haven't joined here would still like to know about this.

Terri: About being worried that someones rivals will move and they won't. If they are as fast as the driver moving, then most likely they will be moving as well. We won't limit it to one driver in each class moving:wink:

One thing I am suprised about is no one has mentioned that a rule that has caused a lot of issues this session is gone or at least modified. The "secret" weather idea hasn't worked as well as i was hoping it had. I will abmit so far we haven't had a lot of different weather but still..........

Next season, we will have no secret weather, which means that if someone has a server issue before the start of a session they can simply swap to another session with no problems. The fact the organising team has had to exclude a driver in each round so far this season due to no fault of their's has caused a lot of difficulty for us. None of us like doing it, but once we started we can't go back. To delete it from the rules half way through would have been unfair to those in previous rounds.

Something that we thought of AFTER these draft rules were posted is this.

Sessions:

Round entries will CLOSE 11:59pm (racedepartment forum time) the wednesday before each round. All drivers must sign-up for the round before this date. If you are unsure what session you will compete in you can say is it TBN (to be nominated), but then you will have to look at the sessions that are listed on the entry list and join one of them. Any driver not signed up before that date that still competes will not be able to score points.

This will allow the organisers to post an "official entry list" and for Senad to be certain of the sessions he has to create over the rally weekend. While we don't want to discourage drivers from running in the championship, it has become an issue that some drivers are signing up DURING the rally and asking for sessions. This puts a lot of pressure on Senad and in some cases means he misses out on creating the session (he has to sleep SOME time). We provide 12 option at the moment covering both weekend and weekdays to allow for all drivers. We provide 2 1/2 weeks to sign up and the calander is set at the start of the season so every one know when the rally's are happening long before. As we also said in the rules, if you sign up for a session then find you can not compete in that one, you can swap to a different one without warning or penalty. But you must then run in a session that is already being created. It really should not disadvantage anyone, but it will make Senad's job much easier.
 
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