RaceDepartment Rally Championship : Season 2 (draft rules)

[Rick Bamford]

After a good response to my Questionaire about the first RDRC and how well it worked, we are ready to open a thread for public discussion. These are the draft rules for the second season of the RDRC. These rules ARE NOT FINAL, here is where we can discuss them and fine tune before the season starts.

The rules are in black while my thoughts and the reasons behind them are in red. All rules will be finalised by the 24th of November, just after the second last round of this years championship.
One thing I would like to say is I was pleasantly suprised that ALL of the feedback I got said the championship was being run well. Thank you to you all. I can only hope that the coming year is just as enjoyable to us all as this has been.

RaceDepartment Rally Championship




·
Format

The RaceDeparment Forum Rally Championship will be run over an 8 round calendar. By comparison to the RaceDepartment rally club these events will be endurance events running between 12-14 stages per rally. Stages will mostly be used twice each rally and BTB stages may also be included. All rules from the rally club and RSRBR will stand unless they are super-seeded in this forum. The RaceDepartment Rally Championship will run as an RSRBR Championship event (you can find the button under the Public sessions button in the RSRBR startup screen) and use Accumulating Reduced car damage. Between service points it will not be possible to change tyres so suitable selection for the following group of stages is imperative, (tyre wear may also be an issue). Weather WILL NOT be announced prior to the event, drivers will need to check the stages prior to starting for the conditions of the following stages. If you retire from a stage your car is automatically repaired. If you choose "Fix now" then you will skip the following stage and be given a nominal stage time.
·
The replies i got regarding the duratino of the championship were were pretty even betwen 12 & 6 months. But most people seamed to want rallies happening more often. Realistic damage, while it is something I REALLY want to use, was seen as not the way to go. Accumulating damage for most people was a good idea though which will introduce a new aspect to the stages in the form of tyre choice and wear. While i have stated that a rally could have 14 stages, this would mean including a super special or short stage in the event. the leangth be kept to the same as current.

Schedule

The RaceDepartment Forum Rally League will run once every 3 weeks in place of that weeks Club Rally event starting on January 24th/25th. As with the rally club 3 times zones will be made available (EU/US/OC) with the times being combined to find an overall winner.


· Rd1 - 24th/25th January
· Rd2 - 14th/15th February
· Rd3 - 7th/8th March
· Rd4 - 28th/29th March
· Rd5 - 18th/19th April
· Rd6 - 9th/10th May
· Rd7 - 30th/31st May
· Rd8 - 20th/21st June

Championship

Drivers in the RaceDepartment Forum Rally league will be split into 2 classes. Both classes will compete on the same stages at the same time and will be separated in the points table. Drivers wishing to score points in the championship will have to register by posting in the Rally League thread. Points will only be awarded once the driver has registered. Car choice must be made prior to the first round that the driver contests and may not be changed for the duration of the season unless the drivers' class changes. Drivers wishing to score points in the league must be registered members of RaceDepartment Forum.

Class 1 (A League)

"A" League drivers are competing for the outright or overall rally and championship win.

Drivers in "A" league must drive cars from Car Packs AW8-07 & AW8-08.

Class 2 (Premier League)

"Premier" League drives will compete for their own championship within the series as well as being able to score points for the overall championship

Drivers in "Premier" League will drive cars from car packs N4-1, N4-2, N4-S2000-1 and N4-S2000-2.(Note: Lancia Delta, Ford Escort, Renault 5 and Skoda Octavia will not be eligable)

After a lot of testing I have found that the N4 and N4 S2000 cars should be evenly matched. It will depend on the drivers style and the stage as to who is fastest. I can explaine the testing if you want but...........

Note:- If a driver disagrees with their placement in "A" league they can publicly request (in the league thread) for a re-classification to "Premier" league. This will allow any other league driver to object or support them. However the rally directors 'decision will be final.

A Premier league driver will be promoted to A league if:

1/ The driver finishes in the top 5 of a Racedepartment Forum Rally Championship event outright
This will take effect from the start of the following event


2/ The driver has won the premier league in the previous RDRC season
Teams Championship

In addition to the 3 drivers championships, a "Teams" Championship will be conducted. Each team MUST consist of 2 drivers. To score points in the Teams championship both drivers must compete in 6 out of the 8 rallies in the season. If either driver misses 3 rounds or more the team will forfeit all points. Team name may be changed at anytime. Once the Championship has started however, it must be posted in the sign-up thread as the following (old team name - New team name)



1.
Points system

Outright/Premier:

1st - 25
2nd - 18
3rd - 15
4th - 12
5th - 10
6th - 8
7th - 6
8th - 4
9th - 2
10th - 1


Teams

Class Points from each team member will be combined to provide a team score.

Parc Fermé

In the case of a protest or complaint from competitors a drivers stage replays must be emailed to the rally director upon request. All protests must be received within 5 days of the results being posted on RaceDepartment and the protesting driver must ALSO supply their stage replays. The ruling will be by the rally directors and will be final.

Note : should the protest concern one of the rally directors themselves, another separate un-involved member will be brought in to judicate

A League drivers (as of 9/8/2010)

Sebastien Levret (Mayland)
2. Tor Anders Berven (Totte)
3. Jakub Sulej (RIVIVIED)
4. Simone Demi (simonedemi)
5. Rick Bamford (Lucifer)
6. Eddie Mann (EddieX)
7. Warren Dawes (WAD53)
8. Tony Hutchins (FOG_tintops)
9. Ludovic Cogotti (Solcius)
10. Damien Jones (DJones)
11. Łukasz Demolin (Maggot666PL)
12. Gaëtan Legastelois (Fry)


These drivers MUST drive in the A league section. Any other driver not on this list can nomiate to compete in A league if they want. Rally Directors may nominate the designated class for any other driver in the interest of fair competition.

Ok guys, give me your feedback. lets get these rules tied down.

 

[Ludovic Cogotti]

I had read and discuss with my teammate about your Questionaire, but I just forgot to answer... (I'am so stupid !)
Really sorry for this, but not really important as I can see here.

I'm agree with a lot of things but this is my feedback point by point :

Format : I think short season is a good thing, it can permit to move up or down between the different league and beeing directly competitive. The unknow weather add more realist thing too.

Shedule : More event which can permit to have more battle, nice thing.

Championship : Nice car choice for both league, agree with this.
The retired rule seems to add more realist goodies, but I am not really sure it is necessary.
We lose already a lot of chance to be in the top 10 with a retired due to the high penalty. So, if we can't have any chance to be here, what is the interest to continue the event ?
Do you want to add these rule for Premier league too ? I'm not sure we have always 10 pilots without one retired at the end of all rallye.
I'm not really for or against, I really try to managed to haven't any retired but I think it can discourage some pilot.

Team championship : Just one question about it, it is possible to have a team with two A-league drivers ?

In general, lot of good thing here, as usual. But I think the short season is more reliable for have move up or down to different league. Maybe rules to move down to A-league to Premier can be ad for having two different and competitive league, with a best mix between both.
The changing during season like it is applied now is really uninteresting for a move up to A-league, in this case we lose all possibility to make any result in both championship.

 

[Senad Subasic]

The retired rule seems to add more realist goodies, but I am not really sure it is necessary.
We lose already a lot of chance to be in the top 10 with a retired due to the high penalty. So, if we can't have any chance to be here, what is the interest to continue the event ?

Hadn't thought of that :eek:
I was all for that, it is more realistic that way, but Ludovic has a good point. Why continue driving if you have nothing to drive for.

Also, most new drivers want to be in the WRC cars. And they will retire driving those, and might give up completely.

Team championship : Just one question about it, it is possible to have a team with two A-league drivers ?

It's not written in the rules, and it was before, I guess it's ok?

For what it's worth, I don't see the downside of it.

 

[Rick Bamford]

The retired rule seems to add more realist goodies, but I am not really sure it is necessary.
We lose already a lot of chance to be in the top 10 with a retired due to the high penalty. So, if we can't have any chance to be here, what is the interest to continue the event ?
Do you want to add these rule for Premier league too ? I'm not sure we have always 10 pilots without one retired at the end of all rallye.
I'm not really for or against, I really try to managed to haven't any retired but I think it can discourage some pilot.

It was only ever meant to be for A league as these are the guys that are meant to be at the top level. They should be able to complete a rally without an off. As it is at the moment (and i am using the current season as an example) Sebastien has a good lead that will be hard for the other drivers to beat. but If he had a crash an event where he scores NO points, it would make it VERY interesting. In the last rally, even if he had have retired from 1 stage, he would have stil finished in the top 5 or even the top 3. Knowing that a single crash would put him out of the event, would he have been so fast? In my opionion, yes he would have, lol. but i could mean either he, or someone else would have to be a little more careful. However, I am expecting your comments to be normal response to this idea, that is why I am asking for feedback.

Team championship : Just one question about it, it is possible to have a team with two A-league drivers ?

OK, this one is something I want to get out into the open. My comments might outset some poeple but I want to be CLEAR as to my original intentions. The original idea behind the teams championship was to incourage drivers from Premier league to join up and give them more reason to keep coming back. I felt that the A league alone should be enough for those drivers, while Premier league needed something ELSE to fight for. If someone finds they can't compete in the outright championship, they might just give up and leave (I beleive this has already happeded). I made the points system biased toward Premier league and asked most of the top drivers to find slower driver to team up with to help them out. This was ignored by vurtually all A league drivers.

It has been said to me that this idea isn't that important anyway, so we will open the championship up a little. To answer your question though, yes. In fact you have pointed out something that I meant to put in.

Both drivers in a team MUST be from the same league. It is included now.

 

[Senad Subasic]

The original idea behind the teams championship was to incourage drivers from Premier league to join up and give them more reason to keep coming back. I felt that the A league alone should be enough for those drivers, while Premier league needed something ELSE to fight for. If someone finds they can't compete in the outright championship, they might just give up and leave (I beleive this has already happeded). I made the points system biased toward Premier league and asked most of the top drivers to find slower driver to team up with to help them out. This was ignored by vurtually all A league drivers.

For me, the team championship is just a fun extra, not the first thing I think of. I just want to try and score outright points. Actually, I just want to beat some guys in WRC cars

Also, I preferred having a team mate in the same league, or with similar abilities if you want. Makes it more fun, with a little internal team challenge as well :honk:

But that's me

 

[Ondrej Kapal]

I am very pleased with that how the league is going this year...

only 3 notes - about realistic damage, I just hope you wont use it - as fas as I found even this reduced is very treacherous, when somewhen you can crash in 200 km/h without any damange and somewhen you just loose you engine only while down shifting I cant imagine how the realistic could work

about that retired rule I think good idea, but it needs some testing in rally club events and needs to be clear after which stages is that service

about teams - as I mentioned in PM, I would even use rule for the same car and team liveries - that drivers have to choice their car, which they will both drive, in the same league and same livery - it adds that feelings of TEAM LEAGUE, where (as there is no co-driver, no tactic then just to be the fastest) it would be nice to have at least some tactic discussion about cars in each team

 

[Rick Bamford]

about that retired rule I think good idea, but it needs some testing in rally club events and needs to be clear after which stages is that service

I will explain how it work in more detail tomorrow, but the accumulating damage and the retirment rule are seperate things.

 

[Ludovic Cogotti]

It was only ever meant to be for A league as these are the guys that are meant to be at the top level. They should be able to complete a rally without an off. As it is at the moment (and i am using the current season as an example) Sebastien has a good lead that will be hard for the other drivers to beat. but If he had a crash an event where he scores NO points, it would make it VERY interesting. In the last rally, even if he had have retired from 1 stage, he would have stil finished in the top 5 or even the top 3. Knowing that a single crash would put him out of the event, would he have been so fast? In my opionion, yes he would have, lol. but i could mean either he, or someone else would have to be a little more careful. However, I am expecting your comments to be normal response to this idea, that is why I am asking for feedback.

Agree, combined with a longest championship like proposed it can be great exactly for the reason you involved. I think it must be clear for all if it is applied but only for A-league. Maybe a penalty on the point gained on the round can be an alternative too.
Totally agree for the team championship too, more we are, better it is !

Also, most new drivers want to be in the WRC cars. And they will retire driving those, and might give up completely.

Maybe a round test can be a good idea with all the rules applied for all seeing the difference and where we are situated in the championship. I'm a little affraid that the Premier League could be empty with already 12 pilotes who must be in A-league.

So, a rule like you mentioned can be a solution but it is necessary that all see how it is difficult to finish 12 specials fast and without one retired.

 

[Łukasz Demolin]

Some very interesting and, in my opinion, pretty well thought changes there, Rick .

Teams are still being tweaked, your idea as explained now was interesting, but just as Senad said, teams usually work better used as in real world. I'd even make separate classification for Premier teams (just like PCWRC or SWRC). Although, contrary to real world, I'd classify the Premier teams (only those with more than 0 points) in the Overall classification. Maybe I'm just used to the real system, but it seems to work and eliminates the possibility of imbalanced points in both leagues.

Damage, used as proposed, creates a pretty good base for trying out the Realistic, IMO. If service is every 2-4 stages (maybe more than real remote 20 min ones, allowing you to fully repair a car) we SHOULD be able to survive, even those more troubled drivers. It would also profit drivers from "Warren's rally school" . I was concerned about realistic (since plenty of times I had to retire after a most delicate touch of a 1.5 foot high young tree with a 1.2 tonne car...), but since you are coming back on the next stage (SupeRally used on Czech plugin is often set to allow comeback at the end of the "day", or even whole rally) it would obviously increase the difficulty, but not to absurd levels.

In short: I'd say we should try realistic in Season 3.

Also the retirement == no points rule for A is a pretty good idea if you ask me, especially when we are running reduced. It was like that in the early days of SupeRally, if memory serves me right.

Great decision to run every 3 weeks, more often, but not too often .

Including the S2000 cars begs for another class, but it's way to early for that (not enough drivers). But it definitively makes me want to drive in Premier even more, and now I'm in A again . Ah well, newer WRCs, I could probably give them a go in practice before filing a complaint .

All in all: great stuff, I'm sticking with RDRDC for S2 without any doubt.

 

[Aaron DeMarre]

1) Accumulating damage and retirements

I am very much for changing the championship to have accumulating damage and retirements. I really see this as being a fundamental part of the sport, before you get to worry about your placement, you first have to finish! I understand it is frustrating to be out of a rally like that, but it should be. As far as computer crashes and the such, in the Rallyesim championships these are treated as random car failures. This is by far the most frustrating way to DNF a rally, but again this idea is at the core of what rallying is to me. Equipment failures happen.

To me, being able to wreck out one stage and come back the next in rally would be like if in road racing, you were allowed to wreck out one one lap, take some arbitrary standard time for the lap you didn't complete, fix your car and be back in the race the next lap.

I see the club rallies as filling the need to provide a more casual rally experience to attract and retain rallyists, but I think the championship rounds should be more serious. Also DNFs make things more even, fast drivers are less likely to go flat out, and if a top guy DNFs that opens it up for someone else to score big points and keep the championship from being so predictable.


2) Realistic damage

I don't have a strong opinion really, but I am fine with it. Just keep in mind some cars are more fragile than others. With the WRC cars it would be very hard for anyone to complete a rally.


3) Car classes

I don't really agree that N4 and S2000 are evenly matched. While a good driver could make any car fast, just looking at the latest IRC round on Rallyesim, there isn't an N4 in the top 20. I like the 2 classes we have now.

 

[Simone Demi]

I agree to the rules.Come on guys,the very important thing is to play and have fun,I accept every rules,every time and in every case,because I only want to drive and have fun
Surely I prefere a most real rule because the reality is harder and I want to drive harder! :-D
For me the rules are ok in all the parts.

 

[Rick Bamford]

LOL, well put Simone.

After a nights sleep and a little thought, I have calmed down and realised something. As the saying goes, "you can please some people some of the time, but not ALL of the people ALL of the time".

While there has only been a few of us post yet, it does seam that the only real point that is creating interest is the A league retirement rule. We will drop this rule for RDRC S2, it might be re looked at for future championships but for now there is little pint to putting it in. I have deleted it from the proposed rule, If anyone wants to read it, i will PM them witht the details. In the big picture, it is not important to include.

Aaron, i understand what you are saying, but i think you would find that if those same drivers in the rallyesim IRC were in N4 cars their times would be similar.

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

top notch work, or so it seems. I must confess I am not far enough into RBR to realy make statements here, so i will just follow everybody else's lead and sign up happily for season 2 Just one idea:

how about teams of three (same class) where only the best two in each event are counted. That way it's not so bad if sb. cannot attend (which happens a lot to the not hardhardcore)

 

[Aaron DeMarre]

I agree to the rules.Come on guys,the very important thing is to play and have fun,I accept every rules,every time and in every case,because I only want to drive and have fun
Surely I prefere a most real rule because the reality is harder and I want to drive harder! :-D
For me the rules are ok in all the parts.

I agree, and will run the next season no matter what the rules are.

I just took this thread as a request for feedback, so I just wanted to put my opinion in while I had a chance to do so.

Thanks to everyone that puts their personal time into organizing the rally stuff, it is much appreciated!

 

[Rick Bamford]

how about teams of three (same class) where only the best two in each event are counted. That way it's not so bad if sb. cannot attend (which happens a lot to the not hardhardcore)

Thanks for your compliment Eckhart.

Ok, here is something I want to find out. I really HATE the idea of 3 driver teams or teams that change their lineup during the season. It used to happen in the WRC that a team would bring in a "specialist" for a round to win the manufacturers title. I think it should be 2 drivers, nominated for the whole championship. if those guys don't turn up..........no points. I know it is a hard line view but thats the way i am.

What about others though? what do the drivers want?

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

no change of lineup, just the ability to take an event off (holiday? work? PC down?) without ruining your team's chances.

 

[Warren Dawes]

Just managed to read this thread now, looks pretty good to me so far.

I was totally confused about the "retirement" rules discussions, but I guess Rick removed that section from the top post before I could se it. I think I might know what it was about, Rick had mentioned bits of it to me via TS, so I think the latest decisions look best.

Re the size of the Teams, I vote for the max of two, it seems that getting teams of two this Season has been a struggle (many of us lost our teammates soon after the season started :frown. I'd prefer to see more Teams than fewer Teams of larger size, but I hope the Teams can stay together better next Season. I think the Teams aspect adds a lot more interest for those not competitive at the top of A League or Premier League.
Actually, I don't really see any problem with mixed Teams (A Leaguer teamed with a Premier Leaguer) as well as the current proposed rule of Team Members having to be from the same League.

I'm keen to see how the cumulative damage system works, it should add a lot more interest and challenge. Should also be a bit more realistic too.
BTW Rick, if weather is to be kept secret till the Rally Starts, how do you keep it unknown to yourself?? :wink:

Car choices look good to me, although for me, the N4S2000 cars are quicker than the N4 cars. Doesn't matter though, since I'm not in that Class.

May I recommend that we organise a Rally (Rally Club Event or a Special Test Rally) so that we can all try out the cumulative process before the Season starts.

If I think of anything else, I'll post later.

Looks damned good so far though Rick. :thumb:

 

[Rick Bamford]

Thanks Warren,

As far as the weather goes I can only promise I will only test in dry weather................trust me I wanted to make even the stages secret but i think I would have to remove myself from the championship if that was to happen. Anybody else want the job? lol.

Yes, I was going to set up a test event, but anyone can do this for themselves if they want to see how it works. Maybe we can put one together for a club event once your back Warren. It actually doesn't change that much, but you do have to be aware of a couple of things. I got caught the first time I drove one, lol.

You were one of my test drivers with the S2000 vs N4 cars Warren. I didn't tell any of you the times, but I can say your fastest in S2000 were matched or beaten by a driver in an N4. Like i've said before, different drivering styles suit different cars. TEST THEM ALL BEFORE YOU CHOOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats the best advice I can give.

 

[Rick Bamford]

OK, something I have been thinking about all day.

I have noticed that people not registered for the championship have been looking at our forum. And it begs the question as to why we don't have more drivers running. One reason might be about our car selection.

So............

To make sure those other people understand. If we can get 40+ drivers turning up each rally, we would look at introducing more car classes. Right now, we would end up with only a few people running in each class, and that doesn't make sence to the organising directors.
I had alot of requests for the J-WRC and alike cars. This will happen if we get many more drivers turning up by the end of the current season (season one). The introduction of more classes in the championship can and will happen. It depends completely on the number of drivers running. I would love to know what class of car you want to driver with, wether you are a registered driver or not, even if you are just considering competing with us. But we need larger numbers COMPETING REGULARY. So turn up and have a go, give us your feed back on cars and we will do our best to make it happen.

 

[Damien Jones]

It all looks good to me; interested to see how this cumulative damage system changes the way we attack the stages. I'm all for teams of two, cause that whole nominating this driver for this event malarkey which goes on seems like hedgeing your bets somehow! However, for me at least the teams championship is a non-event as I can't guarantee I'll be able to make each event and woudn't want to have that affect another driver's championship.