Race length and stuff

[Nicolai Nicholson]

As you may or may not have noticed, I am constantly working to make Presto GP independent from me (although it will always need me to open and close servers, and also update league tables, driver status etc).

It might not feel like it, but we are not very far away from that now One small detail that I currently still do for each race however is determine race length. It is quite easy as we are currently doing 60 minutes races. All I have to do is to predict the race pace (I’m guessing 80 sec a lap at Barcelona) and divide one hour with it (3600 / 80 = 45) . Then one have to think of the pit stop. Here I would go for a 44 or a 45 lap race. It does not really matter what I chose, if the race ends up being 59 or 61 minutes, who cares?

Point is that everybody is free to state in the forum how many laps the next race will be. The earlier this is done, the earlier I can open a stint server etc. etc.

The same goes for the practice race. Anybody can start a practice race thread if one want’s to, and if a different format is desired I am sure the thread will be able to sort that out J I will always make sure the server is open according to the thread’s desires (as long as we race at the usual time).

All this is not because I am planning to leave Presto GP, it is because I have always wanted to be a 100% driver, like everybody else

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

The core of this self running league is the Presto GP Document, that is suppose to work as some kind of constitution, that lay out the ground rules. However, I am unhappy with it as it is too long, too long for me to trust that everybody actually reads and understands it all. Therefore I am looking at making a shorter and more to the point version (not necessarily eliminating the long version)

 

[Jim Hawley]

All this is not because I am planning to leave Presto GP, it is because I have always wanted to be a 100% driver, like everybody else

:thumbup:

Jim

 

[Christian Ramlow]

100 % agree

 

[Peter Marshall]

One small detail that I currently still do for each race however is determine race length. It is quite easy as we are currently doing 60 minutes races. All I have to do is to predict the race pace (I’m guessing 80 sec a lap at Barcelona) and divide one hour with it (3600 / 80 = 45) . Then one have to think of the pit stop. Here I would go for a 44 or a 45 lap race. It does not really matter what I chose, if the race ends up being 59 or 61 minutes, who cares?

I guess the race length by using the 70% of a RL F1 race. Circuit De Catalunya: 66 * 0.7 = approx 46 I'm generally within 1 lap of what is decided

 

[Steve Crossland]

I guess the race length by using the 70% of a RL F1 race. Circuit De Catalunya: 66 * 0.7 = approx 46 I'm generally within 1 lap of what is decided

I do this too

 

[Reik Major]

I'd like the race lenght to be decide before the season starts, so there's no need to discuss it before each race.

We just need to answer the question what race length the majority prefers.

I know there's one group, which likes real race length because different strategies make sence then. And there seems to be an other group, which likes to stay with the 1 hour races because longer races could get too exhausting, increase the DNF rate and kill the fun for them.

I'm fine with both options but I'd really like to see the race length in the race schedule before the season starts.

btw, did I mention that I'm very disappointed about simbin still not giving the option to have shorter stops, even though they released a Formula car for this game? Man, they adjusted many things like different rev counters in the hud and adjustability of 7th gear. Why not the pit length??? If they thought themselfs they release a good open wheeler close to be a F1 car, they must have considered that some leagues would like to use this addon. But then they'd of course ask for shorter pit stopps!

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Personally I would love to test Jim's no pit speed limit idea for the Monaco race...

I'd like the race lenght to be decide before the season starts, so there's no need to discuss it before each race.

I agree, I think most should be able to predict next years calendar more or less perfectly, and the amount of laps anybody can calculate and share with the rest. If one chose 70% of the real race as a method to calculate, it is quite ok with me, I'm guessing it will make the races marginally longer, but it matters not to me at least.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Provisional season 7 calendar:

Round 1: 31st of August at Spa!, ? laps
Round 2: 14th of September at Monza!, ? laps
Round 3: 28th of September at Singapore!, ? laps
Round 4: 12th of Oktober at Suzuka!, ? laps
Round 5: 19th/26th of Oktober at Korea?, ? laps
Round 6: 02nd/09th of November at India?, ? laps
Round 7: 16th of November at Abu Dhabi!, ? laps
Round 8: 30th of November at Interlagos!, ? laps
Round 9: 14th of December at Hungaroring?, ?laps
Round 10: 21st of December at Valencia Street?, ? laps

Other possible tracks; Hockenheim, A1 ring, Montreal if availeble, other suggestions?

(! means almost certain, ? means open for discussion/if availeble)

 

[Anthony Ishak]

i do not mind to go with the current race length/calculation but i would like to mention something here:

it happens for most of the time that the tire choice goes for Meds as they just last the full stint for the majority of races, maybe if we lengthen the race after we have done the calculation with additional 2-3 laps to spice up the challenge by making it a bit tricky for meds to last the full stint and to open up the possibility for diferent strategies like going for hards or 2 stops softs... you will be slower on hards, you will be fast on softs but there is additional stop to count , and you will be very slow on meds at the end of the stint/race that makes you vulnerable for those on softs ..

i do not know, i am just thinking of something to break the routine :tongue:

 

[Jim Hawley]

Here's me just thinking out aloud, crazy idea coming up

If we could get gunthar to make some small changes to the mod for us?

Increase the fuel tank size, ditch the med and hard compounds so we have only soft and s soft!

Then we ban refueling, only tyre change allowed?

F1 2011 ? ?

Jim

 

[Valter Ostman]

i do not mind to go with the current race length/calculation but i would like to mention something here:

it happens for most of the time that the tire choice goes for Meds as they just last the full stint for the majority of races, maybe if we lengthen the race after we have done the calculation with additional 2-3 laps to spice up the challenge by making it a bit tricky for meds to last the full stint and to open up the possibility for diferent strategies like going for hards or 2 stops softs... you will be slower on hards, you will be fast on softs but there is additional stop to count , and you will be very slow on meds at the end of the stint/race that makes you vulnerable for those on softs ..

i do not know, i am just thinking of something to break the routine :tongue:

Yes why not

 

[Valerio Vinassa]

many IDEAS nice:good:
Im agree with Anthony and Jim. Only a change dear mate Jim:love: I have a problem to drive in this situation if you make me do a race only with Soft and SSoft AAARRRGGG I see it difficult with 100% length race.One thing is sure we will need more strategy and this is a great thing for me must use my brain.

 

[Peter Marshall]

Yup,
P-Zero tyres for next and no refueling. We could do the no refueling through general agreement. P-Zero could be emulated by 2x, 3x or 4x Tyre wear in the dedicated Server? We most likely will need to keep on enduring the lengthy pit-stops, but speed limits [in the pit lane] could be lifted.

While I am here, Monaco on the 1st of June so that Kurt may attend?

 

[David McCradic]

Anthony's idea is interesting at first, but when you think about it, no one will go for the soft option due to the pit lane issues.

Here is some interesting analysis.

I will use Sepang as an example. In this race, I started with full 150L fuel, so I only needed to pit for tires. I use Motec's lap overlay abilities to show that I lost about 4 seconds on the in-lap, and about 38 seconds on the out-lap. So that is about 42 seconds lost with only changing 4 tires. If you add fuel for half a race (50/50 stint), your time lost will grow to something like 60 seconds.

This immense time loss hinders any ability to take alternative strategies in the current format.

Staying with the Sepang example, let's say Driver A is on a 1 stop strategy, and Driver B is on a 2 stop strategy. Driver A might pit on lap 20, while Driver B might pit on laps 13 and 26. Assuming both drivers begin with the same quantity fuel, Driver B needs to be average (pit-loss)/(laps in race) per lap faster than Driver A to be equal. At Sepang, this would be 42 seconds gained back over 39 laps, or 1.077 seconds per lap.

It may not seem like much, but you have to investigate further, because if you pit on lap 13 when many other are not pitting until lap 20, you will inevitably end up behind someone who is slowing you down. Let's say at the end of lap 13 Driver B is in P1 with a nice lead, and he pits. After taking 42 seconds to return to full speed on track, he will now be placed behind any driver who was less than (pit-loss)/(laps completed) per lap slower than him, which in this case would be 42 seconds over 13 laps, or 3.23 seconds per lap slower. In our field, using this example, Driver B would exit the pits on lap 14 placed behind almost everyone.

That is why you need the time to gain back per lap as low as possible, because the field will inevitably dictate your pace to some extent.

Now, if you imagine we had a realistic pit-loss time of about 22 seconds at Sepang, you can see how the softer compound will be best, as you would only need to gain back 22 seconds over 39 laps, or 0.564 seconds per lap. In fact, you may even want to pit 3 times on an even softer compound!

considering this short analysis, I think removing the pit limiter is a good option to consider. I cannot tell how much time this would save, but I know at Sepang you are driving 60kph for about 20 seconds. The difference can easily be calculated with a simple test using a stop and go with a limiter vs a stop and go with no limiter. Obviously there are downsides to this to be discussed.

Tire wear and fuel use could also be considered.

A longer race like we did in Pacific last year would also give more strategy options but I am not sure this is favorable to anyone but me.

 

[Tim McIver]

Interesting ideas all round. I think Peters idea has a lot of merit! I'd be very interested to here what others think of it. I had really hoped Rfactor 2 might have solved all our problems by now, but clearly we will have at least one more presto season before even considering a change. I've said a couple of times, I would love to make the race 30 min longer and make the number of laps calculation very very simple, we race the same as F1. In the scheme of things, the whole race meet would be identical but we just run 30 minutes longer at the end. Finishing numbers has been suggested as an issue, but in reality the longer the race is, the more reason people should have to take it easy in the first few laps. In World division when it was running, 2 or 3 stopping were regularly both very viable options. If people aren't keen then its simple, just putting it out there to see what people think.

Tim.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I know people are talking in general terms, but I think for the Monaco race we do not wish to make too many changes, it is controversial enough to do anything at all

The way I see it removing the pit speed limit might provide us with more strategy options, it all depends on how much time a tyre change costs. I am guessing maybe 20-25 seconds. In return one get's to be on better tyres for the whole race, if it makes you on average half a second faster a lap the strategy might pay off. And traffic ofcourse plays in on what is the better strategy.

As for fuel I think it works quite well already (assuming one is stopping for tyres anyway). I did some testing at Shanghai, and very roughly I found that 10 liters of fuel cost me around 0,25 seconds a lap. Carrying some extra fuel can help you make some passes when in the pits, but I think in theory you lose more time than what you make up in the pits. However, this does not matter so much when one are in traffic, which often is the case in the first stint

 

[Tim McIver]

Just to clarify, my full length race suggestion is one to talk about for next season. I would fully support dropping the pit speed limit for Monaco.