1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
Like RaceDepartment on Facebook.

Race #5, Turkey: Post-Race Checks

Discussion in 'Formula SimRacing' started by John-Eric Saxén, May 31, 2011.

  1. Here are the results from round 5.

    Alban Deslie

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Cyril Werdmuller

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    David Dominguez

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: 1 penalty point for incident #1.

    David Martinez

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Dian Kostadinov

    Q1: Not received
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Not received
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Disqualification for no log file. Start from back of the grid for no hot lap.

    Dimitri De Matos

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Fabrizio Gobbi

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Gabriel Montanes

    Q1: Wrong replay (20 seconds)
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Clean
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Start from back of the grid for wrong hot lap replay.

    Giuseppe Marconi

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Jack Keithley

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Jeffrey Rietveld

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: N/A
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Kamran Choudhry

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Luka Oslakovic

    Q1: Practise 1 lap
    Q2: N/A
    Log: No qualifying included
    Launch Control: Clean
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Start from back of the grid for wrong hot lap replay. Warning for missing qualifying log.

    Marco Conti

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Martin Gosbee

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Cut, lap 25
    Penalty: 0.5 penalty points for pit exit cut.

    Miguel Seoane

    Q1: N/A
    Q2: N/A
    Log: N/A
    Launch Control: N/A
    Pitstops: N/A
    Penalty: Warning for allocating but not participating (1).

    Morten Wernersen

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Clean
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Muhammed Patel

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Multiple rFactor instances running
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Warning for running multiple rFactor.exe processes

    Nicolaj Jacobsen

    Q1: N/A
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Clean
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Pedro Melim

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Peter Duivelaar

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Raino Room

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Rizwan Sarwar

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Sergio Casalins

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Stefan Kanitz

    Q1: Clean
    Q2: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Stephane Rouault

    Q1: Not received
    Q2: Not received
    Log: Not received
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Disqualification for no log file. Start from back of the grid for no hot lap.


    Protests

    #1 David Dominguez - Cyril Werdmuller - T12 Lap 41

    Protest: Dominguez attempts to pass Werdmuller, but doesn't leave any room on the inside line while Werdmuller is alongside him.

    Review: Werdmuller attempts to re-overtake Dominguez into turn 12 from the inside. Werdmuller keeps his nose alongside Dominguez throughout the braking section, whereas Dominguez fails to give enough room for both cars to enter alongside, resulting in moderate contact.

    Verdict: 1 penalty point to Dominguez (0.5+0.5 due to no time penalty), referring to Online Rules Supplement article 7.1.
     
  2. Just a criticism, but to me this is totally PM side, what we have now in FSR. To Dominguez you give a penalty for not giving enough room. To Jaakko Mikkonen changing line on straight more than once and not giving enough room on my overtake, you guys almost want to punish me for that. Then you also compromise Stephane's championship hopes and Skizzato's for sending the files in the wrong folder, and mind that Stephane posted that he had sent the files, so, you could have said to Stephane that you hadn't received the files.

    Cheers,
    David
     
  3. The penalty is a bit harsh in my opinon, I think we need to separate people who just don't send the files from people who sent them to a incorrect folder. I agree that a DQ is well deserved for the first group, but if you can check later the log and the replay, that penalty should be reduced. DQ+start from the back it's too much for a guy who just made a small mistake (and he also posted that he sent the files).

    It's not something against John, it's about the rulebook, so I'm also involved here. Just a reflexion about this kind of situations...
     
  4. I am affected by those rules ? I'm now the race winner with his DQ.
     
  5. Sorry to get involved, but I gotta agree with David.

    It can't be too hard to a Director, if he does not get the files, to ask the specific person.
    I dunno what contracts they sign and what it says or something like this, but this should be common sense to everyone racing.
    I mean JES needed a lot of time to do these checks for Turkey (no offense!, I can imagine how time consuming it is), but it wouldn't be much asked if he needs a day more to see for missing files and ask the few people, or sent them a message with a final deadline or whatssoever, where it is not like there are 10ppl every race with missing files.
    I think this would be only in the interest of the sport we are doing here. As it can not be that Stephane is punished for file sent to the wrong race or overall missing files. Dunno what's the point in that.

    best regards
     
  6. I don't feel the need to defend the penalty, but just wanted to clarify some things. I feel that if we have certain procedures they should be followed and be the same in each division, that makes it so much more clear for everyone. The penalty is exactly given with this in mind; whilst I have disqualified xx number of drivers for not submitting their files during the past two years, why should it be any different this time?

    Bearing in mind the procedures where it reads black and white, and the DQ's given to previous xx drivers for the same mistake, I feel this was no question the right decision technically. From ethical point of view it gets more complicated, but the saying "rules are the same for everyone" works here as well.

    This doesn't mean I'm not open for discussion to change procedures and rules, but the right time to discuss that is ideally in the offseason (of course emergency exceptions can be made). I feel, however, that the league cannot do much more about this particular issue; we already introduced the file submit checker, which is directly linked to in the Post Race log submit thread - in an ideal world both the driver and the team manager would check this folder after the race.

    As open as I am to change procedures, I can already exclude Lukas's suggestion. Back in 2008 the system was very lenient, which worked at first, but ended up with myself hunting drivers to send their logs months after the races. My opinion with race logs are that they are either submitted or not, simple. Granted, the director must evaluate each race incident case by case, but that's absolutely why I would prefer to keep simple procedures such as log submits out from this "case by case" evaluation.
     
  7. I agree on submitted or not, but not when a freacking driver posts to have submited and only thing he does wrong is submitting in the wrong folder (race 1 instead of race 5 in this case i believe.)
    You did not need to go hunt the driver for his files, as he said he had sent them, you could have told him, hey look, I don't see the files, can u send them again? I don't think it would waste months of your precious time for that. What you say makes no sense under this point of view.

    @ Ondrej, this is no lack of care at all, it is a mistake of simply not chosing the right race number. He showed that he cared when he posted he sent the files. Who is not caring about destroying hours and hours of preparation to a driver that well deserved the win, is John-Eric Saxen and no one else. And thats a fact.
     
  8. Nothing against JES and his decision since he just followed the rules and it isn't his fault.
    But I think the point of asking the drivers to post here if they submitted the files, was to discover these mistakes and give the driver a chance to correct it to not get DQ.
     
  9. Yes I agree, so what happened here?
     
  10. yes, any news, are you going to change anything or stand with your decision?
     
  11. Originally this was the purpose of the file submit thread, however since the link to the received files is available in the thread, it is more the driver's responsibility to check if his files have been uploaded successfully.

    Being a race director is not easy, all the work put in to this by us takes many hours away from our lives, so to suggest that the directors should spend even more time than necessary is not realistic or fair, especially since things like the Submitted Files link is available for all the drivers to see for themselves.

    I've been in the same situation as JES many times in the past three years and I've always handled it the same way. This year I've given some leniency because of the re-schedule of Sepang, but I don't plan on continuing to do so.

    A lot of people have said that it would be easy to just contact drivers seperately. My personal belief is that if you were to allow this, it would only cause problems in the long run. New drivers would not learn the proper procedures and sooner or later the directors would have to ask 90% of the grid for their files.

    It's a very tough way to learn a lesson like this for Stephane and I hope he still continues to race in FSR after this, but in any case it's not fair to blame JES for anything, since he followed the rules & procedures 100%.
     
  12. Listen.. I made a mistake fair enough. I put a 0 instead of a 5 when submitting. Thats the only crime I committed! I appreciate the work the directors are doing a lot. But it was an HONEST mistake I made, for which i'm being penalized beyond any proportion.

    But think about it. I practiced hours and hours. And won fair and square, because I was the fastest. Is it fair to give me a DQ and a back of the grid start for the next race?

    Absolutely not.

    So for me it's either, change my penalty to a 5 penalty points for sending to wrong directory, or i'm out of FSR.
     
  13. any answer from JES by tonight?
     
  14. 15.3 Penalties will be administered following the Penalty Guidelines, but these are intended as guidelines
    only. In the end, the Race Director will be responsible of reviewing each incident independently.

    So I guess, it is possible to still have common sense also by rules.
     
  15. We need drivers like you in FSR Stephane to maintain a balance! hopefully John will re-evaluate the situation, I think its a strange situation and believe rules should be followed at all costs.....but they do have some limits where common sence should prevail.

    I hope this can be dealt with as just penalty points onto the licence aposed do destroying a drivers race.
    Think about the drivers out there looking in from the outside...future income for FSR...We need to show that we can see things for what they are.
    John does a fantastic job lets not forget that.
    But i think the rules need to be looked at in the same way the stewards looked at hamiltons outburst in the Monaco GP:p
    He should of been charged with bring the sport into disrepute, Instead the stewards understood his actions as a mistake and did not follow the normal protocol of applying the rule book!
     
  16. +1 spot on, thank you
     
  17. thank you guys for supporting our case.
     
  18. Well, there are ways to learn lessons, I don't think that it's necessary to ruin 2 races for that little mistake. The punishment for crashing a guy in race is some license penalty points, while the punishment of putting a wrong number in the file submit tool in this case is a DQ (-50 points) and start from the back in the next race ... The thing is, this makes sense ? I'm sure that with an oficial warning or with some license points penalty, Stephane would have learnt the lesson pretty well. That's what we need to think about instead of "it was always like that".

    And also, maybe it's time for WS and WT users to vote for the rules (I mean for the future), not only for the WC teams, specially earlier in the season, when we lack teams.
     
  19. As I pointed out in my previous post, race incidents will be reviewed case by case, as article 15.3 states. I also explained in my previous post why we don't review file submits case by case; it's both in order to save time from the director and for the greater good of everyone, so that each driver would know exactly what the consequences are of not submitting his files. This is comparable to any sport post-race procedure; e.g. in ski jumping the competitor gets disqualified if he opens his suit too early after his jump (although it can be argumented that he would gain nothing by doing this).

    Now back to the point, since Mikko posted his explanation above, there is no conflict of interest between our interpretations, and thus I find no further need to re-review this incident. As Mikko stated, the penalty has been and is the same for everyone, unless we make an announcement to change it. It doesn't change by the fact that the driver in question happens to win a race, or even worse, that he threatens to quit as a consequence. It's the clubs duty to treat all drivers as equal. Constructive criticism is always welcome, and in time we will review whether this rule should be modified in the future.
     
  20. Shame