Can someone in this discussion look at my post on page 4 and let me know your thoughts.
Race #11, Germany: Post-Race Discussion
- Thread starter Mikko Puumalainen
- Start date
In my case, I disagree. This is what it looked like on all my laps I "cut":
To be honest, this looks like searching mistakes..... really sad to see this in "the best league".
Hopefully no one brings some GPS cutting measurement application to this league: "Fredrik Nilsson, you have cutted 0.0031 cm in turn 12" LoL - Sorry but this is funny.
Like Bruno said: These "I didnt know it; rules discussion" exist for a long time. It sounds like every year this happens on any course.
I dont understand why you not just say before a race: "this is not allowed, in turn x", nobody can be mad after that, when they did it then. Of course it is in the rules, but to be honest, everybody wants to race, not studying some rule books...... the best example is the Schumacher thing in Monaco not even FiA knew if it was wrong or right when he has overtaken Alonso. I know this is not the same thing here, because its smaller rulebook, but running over a carpet which is build for not going into the gravel if you run wide, and get penalized for it, is pretty unfair.
To me as an objective spectator it looks like this: "Hey we know its not allowed, but we dont tell anyone, so we can protest it and maybe get some points in our advantage." I dont say you guys do it, it just looks like this to me.
that is the most sensible post in this thread... 100 % true...
Hello Lee,
I'm very disappointed to see your rant, because you've obviously fallen back to the times you wanted to leave behind.
First let me describe how I saw it as a driver myself, then I will resume some of the general facts.
For me driving: I did little practice and basically never cared about the cutting or going wide (I never care too much in testing). But as soon as I joined the official session and did a lap, I reminded myself of the rules. I remember I wanted to ask Mikko if T8 (or T12 or whatever you want to call it) is an EXCEPTION of the rules by any chance. But I forgot, because I was busy with getting the broadcast going and was happy to be able to do one lap in practice before qualifying.
So, not knowing whether there is an exception or not, I sticked with the rules. I noticed I always lost time in S3 compared to my usual times. So basically I was 18th on the grid instead of maybe 10th (don't know exactly, I only know the times are extremely close this year).
I can absolutely guarantee you that it was not only me thinking like that. Basically I assume all those who didn't get a penalty were thinking like that and therefore doing the right thing. Bruno already pointed out that these rules exist since like a decade already.
On to the general things.
Obviously all the opinions saying the race director should have clarified this before the race is absolutely wrong.
You need to get the order right. The order is 1. rules, 2. exceptions. If the second point is not existant, there is just the first point left, the rules.
The race director, however, WOULD surely have clarified the case IF there was anyone asking for number 2 (exceptions). There was no one asking though, and therefore the race director did not need to say anything.
The screenshot of Marques that had been posted I shall not comment on, it shows that many people did not understand the rules at all.
The argument that "the curb ends which is not our fault" is not valid either. If the curb ends (and I agree, unfortunately it does), you have to adapt your driving to it, even if you think it's a silly track design. It doesn't depend on whether you think the track design is silly or not, else anyone would fall to anarchy each race, just doing what he thinks is the "least silly"...
Again, all those who knew the rules did that correctly.
The last thing I want to say is that I explicitely AGREE that an exception (or correction of track design) should have been made in this case, because as a few pointed out, in reality you run wide there. I could tell you reasons why for example the track design wasn't corrected but that is another story. Admin does not have a 24h+ day either basically.
And in the end I must say it is our faults, as drivers, that we did not ask for an exception.
Anyway though, the bottom line is, there was no exception, no one ever asked for an exception either, and therefore it's the rules that apply.
Fredrik, I'd like to agree with your statement on page 4.
Of course no one thinks that any of the penalized drivers "cheated" and if the report hints so, it should be corrected. But I know Mikko agrees with this as well.
Finally Lee, I suggest you stop yourself from writing much more, because accordingly to what we had to do to other drivers (and in one case team manager) earlier in the year, I'm sure the Board will have to come together to investigate some of the statements you made.
Unfortunately.
I'm very disappointed to see your rant, because you've obviously fallen back to the times you wanted to leave behind.
First let me describe how I saw it as a driver myself, then I will resume some of the general facts.
For me driving: I did little practice and basically never cared about the cutting or going wide (I never care too much in testing). But as soon as I joined the official session and did a lap, I reminded myself of the rules. I remember I wanted to ask Mikko if T8 (or T12 or whatever you want to call it) is an EXCEPTION of the rules by any chance. But I forgot, because I was busy with getting the broadcast going and was happy to be able to do one lap in practice before qualifying.
So, not knowing whether there is an exception or not, I sticked with the rules. I noticed I always lost time in S3 compared to my usual times. So basically I was 18th on the grid instead of maybe 10th (don't know exactly, I only know the times are extremely close this year).
I can absolutely guarantee you that it was not only me thinking like that. Basically I assume all those who didn't get a penalty were thinking like that and therefore doing the right thing. Bruno already pointed out that these rules exist since like a decade already.
On to the general things.
Obviously all the opinions saying the race director should have clarified this before the race is absolutely wrong.
You need to get the order right. The order is 1. rules, 2. exceptions. If the second point is not existant, there is just the first point left, the rules.
The race director, however, WOULD surely have clarified the case IF there was anyone asking for number 2 (exceptions). There was no one asking though, and therefore the race director did not need to say anything.
The screenshot of Marques that had been posted I shall not comment on, it shows that many people did not understand the rules at all.
The argument that "the curb ends which is not our fault" is not valid either. If the curb ends (and I agree, unfortunately it does), you have to adapt your driving to it, even if you think it's a silly track design. It doesn't depend on whether you think the track design is silly or not, else anyone would fall to anarchy each race, just doing what he thinks is the "least silly"...
Again, all those who knew the rules did that correctly.
The last thing I want to say is that I explicitely AGREE that an exception (or correction of track design) should have been made in this case, because as a few pointed out, in reality you run wide there. I could tell you reasons why for example the track design wasn't corrected but that is another story. Admin does not have a 24h+ day either basically.
And in the end I must say it is our faults, as drivers, that we did not ask for an exception.
Anyway though, the bottom line is, there was no exception, no one ever asked for an exception either, and therefore it's the rules that apply.
Fredrik, I'd like to agree with your statement on page 4.
Of course no one thinks that any of the penalized drivers "cheated" and if the report hints so, it should be corrected. But I know Mikko agrees with this as well.
Finally Lee, I suggest you stop yourself from writing much more, because accordingly to what we had to do to other drivers (and in one case team manager) earlier in the year, I'm sure the Board will have to come together to investigate some of the statements you made.
Unfortunately.
Thank you Dennis. In fact I checked my laps now, and in stint 1 and 2, my fastest laps were legal, even when the fastest lap in the second stint was set on worn tyres. So in the end it did not affect anything, but Mikko did the right thing because this is the principle of the rules, no matter how harsh it is.
Thank you for clarification on the matter Dennis.
I feel not only myself but a few others have learnt about this "exception" rule and what it is designed to achieve. While I agree with your statement I will ask, based of this will the penalties still apply or will an exception be allowed for this race and made sure that people can follow later on? Or will penalties apply the same as Mikko has currently posted?
I feel not only myself but a few others have learnt about this "exception" rule and what it is designed to achieve. While I agree with your statement I will ask, based of this will the penalties still apply or will an exception be allowed for this race and made sure that people can follow later on? Or will penalties apply the same as Mikko has currently posted?
That's not up to me. I'm not a race director. People usually ask me questions about anything during a race weekend, but I'm simply not responsible for inside the divisions and their day to day business.
It's up to Mikko (WC), JES (WS) and Stefan (WT).
I can give an opinion but I won't tell them how to do their job, because they do it well and the league should show more appreciation for these people spending so many hours per race weekend with all the checking and administering stuff.
Mistakes can always happen as everyone is human, but there is no mistake in this one. It's a very standard situation actually, just hyped a bit by those who don't read the rules, but I can't imagine that this will have any impact on the race director's decisions.
It's up to Mikko (WC), JES (WS) and Stefan (WT).
I can give an opinion but I won't tell them how to do their job, because they do it well and the league should show more appreciation for these people spending so many hours per race weekend with all the checking and administering stuff.
Mistakes can always happen as everyone is human, but there is no mistake in this one. It's a very standard situation actually, just hyped a bit by those who don't read the rules, but I can't imagine that this will have any impact on the race director's decisions.
Thanks for that Dennis and your right the Directors do a great job every week.
Guys, rules are rules, get over with...
Mikko obviously applied the right penalties, according to the rules, so not much can be said about that. I can't understand why a track modification, or much easier, a simple exception to the rule, wasn't applied to avoid the issue, too late now though.
As for people waiting for this to happen, as some said, I think it just shows how naive most of us teams still are on our approach. FSR races are nowadays won both on and off the track, using every tool available in the rulebook. Whether we like it or not, we have to get used to it and learn to play the same game.
As for people waiting for this to happen, as some said, I think it just shows how naive most of us teams still are on our approach. FSR races are nowadays won both on and off the track, using every tool available in the rulebook. Whether we like it or not, we have to get used to it and learn to play the same game.
Forget it.. to come back to that was what i was expecting anyway...
Do what you like i dont care anymore.. just get shot down whenever we try so its pointless it realy is... its supposed to be a proffesional league but it becomes more and more pathetic with these decisions.. i realy hoped this year we would not see this but once again its happenening.
You may see it as fair but me with my opinion does not.. and i am entitled to that.
Also this board meeting.. i do not understand that bit as i have not made any comments towards anyone in a harsh manner.. i have basicaly been infuriated with the penalty given (JUSTIFIABLY) and made my remarks with very if at all any use of violent language... we are allowed an opinion.. and to talk.. so you cant say im dissapointed to see your rant as im entitled to it.. and everything i have said has been within the rules according to your rulebooks on this forum...
But then again maybe FSR didnt tell us about something that we need to know.. wont have been the first time...
take that how you will, this is the final comment from me.. we will appeal accordingly and no doubt recieve no help what so ever with it.. so it will be hungary the next time you hear from me..
Have a good break all and see you all at hungary !
Do what you like i dont care anymore.. just get shot down whenever we try so its pointless it realy is... its supposed to be a proffesional league but it becomes more and more pathetic with these decisions.. i realy hoped this year we would not see this but once again its happenening.
You may see it as fair but me with my opinion does not.. and i am entitled to that.
Also this board meeting.. i do not understand that bit as i have not made any comments towards anyone in a harsh manner.. i have basicaly been infuriated with the penalty given (JUSTIFIABLY) and made my remarks with very if at all any use of violent language... we are allowed an opinion.. and to talk.. so you cant say im dissapointed to see your rant as im entitled to it.. and everything i have said has been within the rules according to your rulebooks on this forum...
But then again maybe FSR didnt tell us about something that we need to know.. wont have been the first time...
take that how you will, this is the final comment from me.. we will appeal accordingly and no doubt recieve no help what so ever with it.. so it will be hungary the next time you hear from me..
Have a good break all and see you all at hungary !
This is pretty amazing really +1 to Jans post earlier :S
It's supposed to be a league formed by professional drivers first of all. 
There is no point to discuss further Lee. You are unable to accept your own mistake as opposed to Fredrik, or Bruno in 2009, and others. That's the whole story.
Facts are that if you disagree with the rules, your team needs to start a discussion in the TOA. As I always remind, only the teams have the power to change the sporting rules.
I explained the rest of the facts in my other post, for some reason you didn't comment on these at all and instead went on with ranting, which shows you have no arguments.
See you in Hungary.
There is no point to discuss further Lee. You are unable to accept your own mistake as opposed to Fredrik, or Bruno in 2009, and others. That's the whole story.
Facts are that if you disagree with the rules, your team needs to start a discussion in the TOA. As I always remind, only the teams have the power to change the sporting rules.
I explained the rest of the facts in my other post, for some reason you didn't comment on these at all and instead went on with ranting, which shows you have no arguments.
See you in Hungary.
I might be wrong person to comment on this thing as a Fredriks team mate. But still disqualification from ''cutting'' there as it was so slight and did not mean to do that i would agree 10 second racetime penalty or something that wouldve make up possible time gain but as said he did not mean to do it so i would refer to some penalties given for example crashes that cause other driver to lose time and gives this crasher free road 100% of the time they are mistakes and surely not meant to do but they happen all the time and then race directors write down ''race incident'' no penalty and i say thats cool but then why to give so harsh penalty as dq from thing like that???????
It's harsh Sami yes, but it is the correct verdict. I think we can leave it now, I think I got my own point across in this matter already and that people understand. Let's move onto Hungary.
It's supposed to be a league formed by professional drivers first of all.
There is no point to discuss further Lee. You are unable to accept your own mistake as opposed to Fredrik, or Bruno in 2009, and others. That's the whole story.
Facts are that if you disagree with the rules, your team needs to start a discussion in the TOA. As I always remind, only the teams have the power to change the sporting rules.
I explained the rest of the facts in my other post, for some reason you didn't comment on these at all and instead went on with ranting, which shows you have no arguments.
See you in Hungary.
Not once did i say i cant see i did wrong.. i understand what happened.. what i dont like is the fact it says i gained an advtantage.. as i did not.. no one did in any league.. this has realy let fsr down.. look at the response of people... no one is happy.. only the ones that were not caught out.. its almost like a trap not a race.. you will only loose members.. this way and you also wonder why teams struggle to find drivers to fill your grids... this is why.. pathetic decisions....
We are not trying to change the rules..its simply a massive mistake on your behalf.. (or fsr) as its not gaining an advantage at all... if you do a VCR merge.. you see that its no faster what so ever.. THATS what annoys me... i mean 2 races ruined for this..
Hungary now is a wate of time as s1 is 26 seconds down the road. so no chance of doing anything there is there..
Also my qualifying lap was penalised as i made a mistake in the right hander t8 and actualy saved the car and ran wide but i get a penalty for this ? fora mistake ? the faster line is to hook the inside kerb up.. i mean this is just getting silly isnt it ? my penalty for missing the apex was that i qualified p6 and not p3 where i should have been on that lap... but obviosly the reviewer did not look at this at all and just saw my car out wide...
Also as conti said in the WS forum.. why on earth were there no anti cuts or something.. or a bit of gravel... its like i said.. its been made to catch people out.. and its just not on..
Also.. stop saying ... you keep ranting to me.. im not ranting im stating my opinion which im entitled to.. i have read your posts but they mean nothing to me.. so why should i take them into consideratin.. they are just rants.... they mean nothing to the argument... and god knows it i couldargue this all year.. as its an absolute disgrace... i would be the first to admit to a mistake but this is just a joke.
Lee, this discussion is old, and all you say has been discussed in the past (both cutting in race and running wide after a mistake in qualy). In the years before there were no anticuts and still people didn´t run wide.
The problem just is, if you guys had spotted this problem and asked for an exception for this race I don´t think the league would have said no to this. Still you decided to just go for it and hope it wont get penalized or you didn´t know the rules. In both cases this is 100% your fault.
And as Christian said before, FSR is not about just winning on track, you also have to prepare for the races, and spotting and avoiding or solving a problem like this is part of the preparation. (this also goes for testing Pit entry Mr. Nilsson )
The problem just is, if you guys had spotted this problem and asked for an exception for this race I don´t think the league would have said no to this. Still you decided to just go for it and hope it wont get penalized or you didn´t know the rules. In both cases this is 100% your fault.
And as Christian said before, FSR is not about just winning on track, you also have to prepare for the races, and spotting and avoiding or solving a problem like this is part of the preparation. (this also goes for testing Pit entry Mr. Nilsson
)You speak to me like im some sort of noob.. ive raced for 10+ years now i know what to look for its just when something like this happends its crazy.. its not racing its just people making advantages out of others..
i didnt just go for it and hope i wont be penalised.. i had absolutl;ey no idea this would happen.. i know cutting ruls but in my eyes this is not a cut and i did not gain an advantage as did no one else.. i probrably know the rulebook better than you as if you look at my liscense this year its been one of the cleanest in fsr.. and i dont intentionaly cheat i never would.. i was simply caught out by such a flaw.. something that in real life they do.. so... i dont understand what to do anymore.. your just not allowed to race anymore without penaltys.. its like canapino protesting me for t2 at hockenheim.. how dare he protest me for his ping... its just not fair..
i didnt just go for it and hope i wont be penalised.. i had absolutl;ey no idea this would happen.. i know cutting ruls but in my eyes this is not a cut and i did not gain an advantage as did no one else.. i probrably know the rulebook better than you as if you look at my liscense this year its been one of the cleanest in fsr.. and i dont intentionaly cheat i never would.. i was simply caught out by such a flaw.. something that in real life they do.. so... i dont understand what to do anymore.. your just not allowed to race anymore without penaltys.. its like canapino protesting me for t2 at hockenheim.. how dare he protest me for his ping... its just not fair..
Nowhere in my review does it say you gained an advantage. The "Protest description" is what the people who sent the protest wrote down.
I've read the whole post twice, so I know what every one's written so far.
But the main thing is : Why dont you make 1-3 little sentences what is allowed on a certain track and what is not? Its like work for about 1 minute. Everybody will know what is allowed and what is not. Just clearify it before each race with 1-3 sentence and FSR doesnt get this discussions its so easy to avoid it.
And only by saying "its in the rules, read it" is ok, but its just heating up people. In the real F1 they also have a drivers briefing before each race and they know exactly where they are allowed to go wide and where they are not, why dont make it here too with only 1-3 sentence, work of 1 extra minute? Thats just very simple. No one wants these discussions and thats an easy and fair way to avoid it. Its just an idea from my objective view here, im not forcing someone
But the main thing is : Why dont you make 1-3 little sentences what is allowed on a certain track and what is not? Its like work for about 1 minute. Everybody will know what is allowed and what is not. Just clearify it before each race with 1-3 sentence and FSR doesnt get this discussions its so easy to avoid it.
And only by saying "its in the rules, read it" is ok, but its just heating up people. In the real F1 they also have a drivers briefing before each race and they know exactly where they are allowed to go wide and where they are not, why dont make it here too with only 1-3 sentence, work of 1 extra minute? Thats just very simple. No one wants these discussions and thats an easy and fair way to avoid it. Its just an idea from my objective view here, im not forcing someone
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