They did not state where weare allowed to drive... AT ALL we were not told.. if you look where my car is its 2 wheels on kerb and then the kerb runs out.. its a naturla line... EVEN all your drivers had there wheels on this kerb... and the astro turf.. but they did not get penaltys...
Race #11, Germany: Post-Race Discussion
- Thread starter Mikko Puumalainen
- Start date
They did not state where weare allowed to drive... AT ALL we were not told.. if you look where my car is its 2 wheels on kerb and then the kerb runs out.. its a naturla line... EVEN all your drivers had there wheels on this kerb... and the astro turf.. but they did not get penaltys...
Too the two precision duo taking part.... you obviosly had pre race information.. we had no idea of this... the rule is 2 wheels on kerb.. we did this but then the poor track design runs out of kerb so your left there... all your drivers ran the same line as us... i could even do screenshots to compare... i have just watched the replay... and please stop continuing to be so smug and stubborn as your just coming across as a set of t***s to be honest...
Right guys,
Can I just apolagise for this confusion with corner numbers. I am reading this from Formula1.com: http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/germany_834/
That clearly show Turn 7 being the right handed kink. Turn 8 being the hairpin. Turn 12 being the right in to the stadium.
Can I just apolagise for this confusion with corner numbers. I am reading this from Formula1.com: http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/germany_834/
That clearly show Turn 7 being the right handed kink. Turn 8 being the hairpin. Turn 12 being the right in to the stadium.
Seriously lee, how can you say you didn´t know? Every Driver read the rules. So did ours. That´s why they knew where they have to drive. Same goes for Twister and many others.
But if you think you did nothing wrong post the proofs and appeal the decision.
There appears to be many different numbers for the same corner depending on the map. The corner in question is the fastest turn of track (right-hander in beginning of s3). And as for the rules:
13.1 The race "track" is considered the main asphalt surface generally bounded by white lines, grass, walls or curbing. Curbs are usually painted in blue/white, green/white or red/white colors. Curbs are considered part of the track. The green or grey solid or grasscrete surfaces on the inside of the curbs are NOT to be considered as part of the curbs.
It's pretty obvious and by taking that corner with caution like I had to do every lap cost me about a tenth per lap, which can be difference between P5 and P15 in today's league.
We did not know... as in real life they run wide and my car was on the kerb the whole time... then the kerb ends... what do you do ? but there is room for track..
we did this all week.. not just race day... there is no time advantage at all... nothing... and for your information i have read the rules along with all the other casualties.. the rules stated nothing about this sort of occurance... this is not our fault its FSR.. we did not recieve anything to do with this kerb.. and what im saying is.. every other driver also used this line... not just us... they all had there wheels on the astro turf too.. so how come they dont get penalised ?
we did this all week.. not just race day... there is no time advantage at all... nothing... and for your information i have read the rules along with all the other casualties.. the rules stated nothing about this sort of occurance... this is not our fault its FSR.. we did not recieve anything to do with this kerb.. and what im saying is.. every other driver also used this line... not just us... they all had there wheels on the astro turf too.. so how come they dont get penalised ?
Exacly.. we used the kerb.. which is part of the track... and your WS drivers knew about this.. we did not.. we were not told you gave a warning to all your drivers... good managment... we had nothing... poor managment..
Care to explain this anyone ? why were PM and TWISTER not penalised in this ? ive never seen anything so biased...
http://img441.imageshack.us/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=grab033.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=grab033.jpg
I was checking Morris race at T8. I can't see nothing wrong there, no cutting or going wide, nothing.
As for the exit after T12 going wide, there were many, even leaders, who was with 4 wheels on the kerb once or more, so it must be penalty according to rule. There were also many, who was cutting at T12 entry, some very minor, some too much, some was doing it too much, even leaders.
Regards
As for the exit after T12 going wide, there were many, even leaders, who was with 4 wheels on the kerb once or more, so it must be penalty according to rule. There were also many, who was cutting at T12 entry, some very minor, some too much, some was doing it too much, even leaders.
Regards
No, my point was that the green part of the curb is not part of the track, as the rules state. Regarding WS, I specifically pointed out the corner before the race (as can be confirmed by any ws driver who was listening), but of course there was no obligation to do so.
Ok ondrej i will posrt the screenshots a few momentas after then when your cars were on the same area as us...
Also.. john i dont know if you took it wrong but i was actualy trying to pay you a compliment as your ws drivers were clear in what they were doing.. which they did appreciate.
Also.. john i dont know if you took it wrong but i was actualy trying to pay you a compliment as your ws drivers were clear in what they were doing.. which they did appreciate.
A question to pose would be, is it worse to know its a cut and a cheat, yet do it anyway or to do it unintentionally?
Surely if 9 drivers are being penalised for it, the whole field who did it should also. If some drivers had purposely slowed down and not ran right up onto the kerb as John Eric Saxen says, then I applaud them, but with the leaders cars, Lee's screenshots show that wasn't the case and they should be reprimanded like everyone else.
Surely if 9 drivers are being penalised for it, the whole field who did it should also. If some drivers had purposely slowed down and not ran right up onto the kerb as John Eric Saxen says, then I applaud them, but with the leaders cars, Lee's screenshots show that wasn't the case and they should be reprimanded like everyone else.
Ha, its a waste of time... they just see there own holes.. thats it... waste of time.. we may be just better to forget it and move on to hungary as you will never get through to anyone here.
Listen,
I don't want all of us teams and team managers getting in to arguments again. There just seems to be some grey areas that I think may need to be reviewed.
I can understand why it could be classed as cutting, but to put in to the context of Turn 12 is wrong. Turn 12 is an exit and once your powering through the natural line of the car is push wide. There is nothing wrong with this.
Just like in GRC, when you start restricting these very key areas in terms of speed, you get accidents, avoidable accidents as well. You’re taking the racing away from the racers. You’re dumbing down what they are doing and wanting to achieve on track. That in my book is wrong. You should not allow these racers to but so constricted in what they do.
The exit of 12 is just a racing line, not a cut of the track. There is no part of the track that’s being cut. It’s a curb one that runs in relation to the track and has purpose width. If you wanted to create a cut system then why not increase the AstroTurf area? This would have then clearly identified it. By cutting the INSIDE racing line your causing a decreased speed, but by letting them run a natural line and a clear identification of AstroTurf area this problem could have been avoided.
They are the height of Sim Racing, these blokes KNOW how to race and how to race properly but yet you still want to restrict them?
That exit curb is fully usable. It's been used in Formula 1, DTM and so on. It always has been, always will be. As Lee alluded to before Montoya and Raikkonen went side by side through there.
So I ask, why restrict these top class drivers in giving us a proper show. Why cause such controversy over mere millimetres on what was a top quality race and an absolutely fantastic race to commentate on. But yet still there has to be something after it to put a damper on a great weekend.
This situation is not the drivers fault at all, they are doing what most of you teams pay them to do... RACE. And when they get held back then, to be honest, what do you expect with the reaction you’re currently receiving?
I don't want all of us teams and team managers getting in to arguments again. There just seems to be some grey areas that I think may need to be reviewed.
I can understand why it could be classed as cutting, but to put in to the context of Turn 12 is wrong. Turn 12 is an exit and once your powering through the natural line of the car is push wide. There is nothing wrong with this.
Just like in GRC, when you start restricting these very key areas in terms of speed, you get accidents, avoidable accidents as well. You’re taking the racing away from the racers. You’re dumbing down what they are doing and wanting to achieve on track. That in my book is wrong. You should not allow these racers to but so constricted in what they do.
The exit of 12 is just a racing line, not a cut of the track. There is no part of the track that’s being cut. It’s a curb one that runs in relation to the track and has purpose width. If you wanted to create a cut system then why not increase the AstroTurf area? This would have then clearly identified it. By cutting the INSIDE racing line your causing a decreased speed, but by letting them run a natural line and a clear identification of AstroTurf area this problem could have been avoided.
They are the height of Sim Racing, these blokes KNOW how to race and how to race properly but yet you still want to restrict them?
That exit curb is fully usable. It's been used in Formula 1, DTM and so on. It always has been, always will be. As Lee alluded to before Montoya and Raikkonen went side by side through there.
So I ask, why restrict these top class drivers in giving us a proper show. Why cause such controversy over mere millimetres on what was a top quality race and an absolutely fantastic race to commentate on. But yet still there has to be something after it to put a damper on a great weekend.
This situation is not the drivers fault at all, they are doing what most of you teams pay them to do... RACE. And when they get held back then, to be honest, what do you expect with the reaction you’re currently receiving?
In my case, I disagree. This is what it looked like on all my laps I "cut":
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
My rear right wheel was just a couple of centimetres off the track in many of the instances, not even that much at some points, and this resulted in a disqualification. In fact the tyre wall is on the track in some of the laps.
I compared my laps where I "cut" to those where I did not, and I was as fast as on those laps as on the laps where I "cut". If fact, in qualifying I set my personal best on this track, and on that lap I drove legally. So it is only a principle matter. As Johannes said though, it's a matter of where you are allowed to drive and where you are not, no matter how much time you gain or lose.
By the book, the penalties are correct indeed, but when you look at the picture I sent it's hard to not to feel that the penalty is harsh. The "gaining an advantage" part in the protest description really is not true at all. The most important point I want to bring up is that I did not get my 5th place by cheating, something that the protest description says in a way. If we can agree on this, it's fine and I will accept the penalty. Let me hear your opinion please.
Lee, if you're going to use me as an example, use it correctly. The problem is that AFTER the curb, there's the green patch, and you (presumably, I haven't checked anyone's race) kept going over it with all the four wheels, therefore you were driving "illegaly". I turned a bit more to the right before going over that green patch, and therefore it was legal.
Besides, nobody protested me, so I wasn't investigated I guess.
Besides, nobody protested me, so I wasn't investigated I guess.
It wasnt using you as such... its just saying everyone ran wide.. i just disagree with the fact its so petty... it just seems very harsh like nillson said.. its not aiming at anyone in particular as a driver just extremley mad that people get away with it.. and its always the same ones who get penalised for the league mistakes...
I don't think Lee meant any Malice towards you Bruno, nor any of the others but you've pointed out something. All drivers ran equally as wide, as shown in the screenshots. Some of these such as yourself realized the upcoming green area did not form part of the kerb area, others wrongly thought it was. But as all drivers would be returning over to the opposite side of the track, what advantage is gained by carrying onto the green area?
The extent of how wide you can run over the kerb on that line is determined by the gravel trap behind, not the green ahead so any time advantage would be minescule even if there was one.
That coupled with the fact this was an anticipated issue which could have been solved prior in 1 line of text by the director makes such a harsh punishment seem a little unfair.
I know he didn't mean malice lol, I just said if he wants to show a picture of me cutting, he shouldn't use that one, as it is a perfectly valid line lol.
The thing about drivers knowing or not knowing, it has been like this already when I came to FSR, since 2005 (as per rules), at least I don't need to have the directors telling me what is or what isn't allowed.
The thing about drivers knowing or not knowing, it has been like this already when I came to FSR, since 2005 (as per rules), at least I don't need to have the directors telling me what is or what isn't allowed.
no no im simply showing that everyone went wide.. its the natural line of the corner.. the exit means nothing as if you turn right or sray straight you dont get any advantage as its a straight line... you still carry same speed.. this is why i think its harsh... a penalty that would fit the crime would be a race penalty of time not DQ and my qualifying lap i actualy made a mistake and got penalised for, my normal line on a hotlap is to hook the inside kerb as its faster.. mid corner on my hotlap i got a twitch at back end and the car stepped out so i ran wide.. lost time but i get a pitlane start....
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