Race #08, Hungary: Post-Race Discussion

[jowseyf3]

From a neutral perspective here, the way formula sim racing admins and other team members have handled this in this thread and server, puts a much worse light on the league than anything Patrick did today. It looks like a big witchhunt with attacks and past history brought up to remove someone from the league from mistakes that have nothing to do with today, only today's brought up as a final excuse to remove said driver. The fact that there are no rules for this is the worse thing in the way it's been handled on the admin side.

To me there seems to be to much personal emotions and personal attachments to each ones teams (Admins including) and people who have a dislike for Patrick, which makes this whole thing put a bad light on the series and it's reputation, far worse than anything Patrick did. It certainly has stopped my motivatinion to wanting to continue here with this kind of nonsense happening.

 

[Dian Kostadinov]

You just need to check his cornering speeds / laptimes to see that he was doing it on purpose. So yes, it can be proved. Easily, in fact. Don't let your team colors ignore what happened.

About what Mikko did, in fact he can do what he did. It's the responsability of the race director to control what's happening on track, and defend the league's interest. You guys are trying to defend something that doesn't have any possible defense...

Why then you let Tacito to race in WT race when you knew that he is with hack and that would destroy someone's race or worse, spectators to see that there are cheaters in FSR ?

 

[Ron Squire]

Why then you let Tacito to race in WT race when you knew that he is with hack and that would destroy someone's race or worse, spectators to see that there are cheaters in FSR ?

Not this again!!

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

Why then you let Tacito to race in WT race when you knew that he is with hack and that would destroy someone's race or worse, spectators to see that there are cheaters in FSR ?

If we hadn't let him race he would never have submitted his race log and consequently some less intelligent people might have argued that he is innocent and that FSR has no proofs, etc.

 

[David Dominguez]

Why then you let Tacito to race in WT race when you knew that he is with hack and that would destroy someone's race or worse, spectators to see that there are cheaters in FSR ?

I am not WT race director, first of all. And second, to ban a cheater you need an evidence, in this case a log.

 

[David Dominguez]

From a neutral perspective here, the way formula sim racing admins and other team members have handled this in this thread and server, puts a much worse light on the league than anything Patrick did today. It looks like a big witchhunt with attacks and past history brought up to remove someone from the league from mistakes that have nothing to do with today, only today's brought up as a final excuse to remove said driver. The fact that there are no rules for this is the worse thing in the way it's been handled on the admin side.

To me there seems to be to much personal emotions and personal attachments to each ones teams (Admins including) and people who have a dislike for Patrick, which makes this whole thing put a bad light on the series and it's reputation, far worse than anything Patrick did. It certainly has stopped my motivatinion to wanting to continue here with this kind of nonsense happening.

You have no clue about what you are talking about.

 

[Dian Kostadinov]

OK. You are the boss.

 

[jowseyf3]

You have no clue about what you are talking about.

Actually this is wrong and exactly my point, from an outsiders view (Talking many people here) it's exactly right what I say and for a respected high power of the series to respond with such a post makes matters even worse. It just puts a really bad light on the league this kind of attitude on top of the above already mentioned in my last post, things should be dealt with more professionally instead of personally.

 

[David Dominguez]

Actually this is wrong and exactly my point, from an outsiders view (Talking many people here) it's exactly right what I say and for a respected high power of the series to respond with such a post makes matters even worse. It just puts a really bad light on the league this kind of attitude on top of the above already mentioned in my last post, things should be dealt with more professionally instead of personally.

Say whatever you want, I don't care. You are simply wrong.

Anyway, since you are so worried about what the rules say, this is what they say:

1. Online Etiquette

1.12 At all times, all drivers should behave toward their fellow drivers and marshals professionally and respectfully. Any such behavior that is construed as being less than professional and/or respectful by any driver may be heavily penalized.

If you think there is nothing wrong on the video I shared previously (plus the fact that he simply ran with half tank on purpose, as we say during warmup) then I have nothing else to add.

 

[Mikko Puumalainen]

From a neutral perspective here, the way formula sim racing admins and other team members have handled this in this thread and server, puts a much worse light on the league than anything Patrick did today. It looks like a big witchhunt with attacks and past history brought up to remove someone from the league from mistakes that have nothing to do with today, only today's brought up as a final excuse to remove said driver. The fact that there are no rules for this is the worse thing in the way it's been handled on the admin side.

To me there seems to be to much personal emotions and personal attachments to each ones teams (Admins including) and people who have a dislike for Patrick, which makes this whole thing put a bad light on the series and it's reputation, far worse than anything Patrick did. It certainly has stopped my motivatinion to wanting to continue here with this kind of nonsense happening.

First of all, if you read all the posts made by admins, you will not find a single attack or reference to the past etc. Everything that admins have stated regarding his behaviour in this race has been factual, whether you want to believe it or not.

You guys are ignoring the fact that this was a major breach of the online etiquette (at least in my view), which makes it a huge issue on it's own, even without considering any possible past issues.

If we want to make a comparison with F1, they had no rule against a driver crashing on purpose to cause a Safety Car period and help his teammate (singapore 2008), but they have loopholes in their rules which allow them to do whatever they want when they see things happening which are clearly wrong. The same thing applies to FSR, so please stop talking about the issue of there not being a specific rule for this situation.

I have nothing against Pat personally, but there's no arguing the fact that he has made some very bad decisions not too long ago (Canada) and again here. Also if we want to talk about the past:

When I started as WC race director in the beginning of 2010, Pat was a fraction away from getting a season ban. However since I knew part of the reason why he had a few issues in 2009, I wanted to give Pat another chance and proceeded to talk with Pat on two occasions in length.

We decided that we would start fresh, forgetting about the issues of the past and just focus on clean racing. The admins/team bosses who were concerned about him trusted me in giving him a chance, and also that if things went bad, that I would step in and do the right thing.

It worked fine for the most part, other than the incident in Brazil with Bruno, for which he got a 1 race ban.

Again after that incident, numerous people (admins & teambosses) wanted Pat to be banned, but again I basicly put my neck on the line for him, convincing them to give him another chance.

2011 and 2012 went without any major incidents (that I can at least remember), so things were looking good. However, it's clear that this incident and what happened in Canada have brought back a lot of memories for people from 2009/2010 and earlier.

Any talks in this thread of season bans etc. are just speculation, but this incident is very serious in my opinion, evident by the fact that it has gotten so much attention.

As for mentions of "dislike" or "personal interests", that might be true for some team owners/members, but it's irrelevant for admins. If you can't trust the league admins to be unbiased and trustworthy, there's nothing that can be done to change that, I for one am tired of having to try to prove myself every 6 months.

Btw, I still like Pat.

 

[Manalys]

I'm an outsider, and I may just be one, but I do not agree with jowseyf3 at all. I do not have all the facts, but even if there is not a specific rule for this, we as humans do have common sense and, hopefully, a sense of respect to one another. Many people prepare these races spending days of their Summer time putting in practice laps. And I honestly don't know what kind of a person de Wit is, but the impression he gives starting with half the amount of fuel needed to finish the race is dangerous for other drivers, specially when you're starting 17th, and disrespectful to them as well. This already makes it possible for the race director (in my understanding of the rules ) to DSQ him if he proves to be doing 'strange', dangerous moves/stuff.
Every single fight or passing move he had to make lost time to the people actually racing, and created dangerous situations, one of which could have affected the race winner.
I think these races also have a 'fun' factor in them. But if you want to have fun at the expense of others', then that's really selfish.

I believe the RD's decision was correct and that the admins are not giving off a bad impression of themselves, they are just having to answer the same question 40 times.

On another subject, I do think team orders are ok, but between-team orders not so much... I don't know but having 2 4-car teams (effectively) seems a bit too much. Just my opinion though . But if it's going to be this way, I don't understand why everyone's going after the GT Omega's! The others just have to improve then! ^_^

Well, looking forward to next race! Grats Huis and Morand for the fight!

 

[Jack Keithley]

Sure, with PM/GTO WS driver who can't finish a race better than a certain place ( the most 7 or 8th ) battling with the lead with a agressive strategy to hold up the virtual second of the race ( like Keithley in Germany 2012 and other stuffs )
These are identical situations, so it's a bit ironical that PM attacks Patrick with this argument. It's just Patrick's situation is more obvious : but to be clear in these 2 situations, i don't agree with. I donno what happened to patrick, this is sad because i like him.

The amount of times you go on about this race is ridiculous and should stop - I've never made one mention of the fact that you intentionally wrecked me out and yet here we are a year on and you're still playing the victim card.

It's not fooling anyone anymore.

 

[Bradley Vanian]

Can someone else mention another major simracing community which has such major arguments? I've got loads of popcorn which I want to eat

 

[Muhammed Patel]

Can someone else mention another major simracing community which has such major arguments? I've got loads of popcorn which I want to eat

The iRacing forums always produces some nice quality wars. It almost makes these forums seem civilized.

 

[Ron Squire]

plus the Simracing which must not be named on the FSR forums

 

[Morgan Morand]

The amount of times you go on about this race is ridiculous and should stop - I've never made one mention of the fact that you intentionally wrecked me out and yet here we are a year on and you're still playing the victim card.

It's not fooling anyone anymore.

No, i just reveal a point, that your team played and still play on the red line about this. Influencing the final result by this way, and it was the case of you in this round, nothing more. if you were a WC or WS driver who could score 25pts i didn't say nothing about this stuff, but it wasn't the case and it's a bit a identical situation to patrick, influencing result and battle to advantage one or another drivers with 15/20L less (but refueling was allowed )... Last British GP was the same way and the youtube follower was crazy about this but no reaction in admin ? It's like 1 year i'd like to change the top10 rules for WS drivers in WC : proposal and argument.

proposal : A WS/WT driver who can't score a maximum of points during the race can't be allowed to race. ( ex : P10 in WC standing has 26 points and the WS driver 0, he has the right to race )
*** If a WS driver wants to continue in WC championship if he can't score the maximum of points, he has to dismiss to the WS championship to have the right to race. ( from 2 races minimum )

arguments and effects : Reduce the amount of WS/WT driver racing in WC. Increase the amount of driver into the league ( a WS driver race only one time per weekend. liberating some place for other drivers in WC )
Eliminate some bizarre stuffs like British 2013 GP. Makes some battle more fair.
Ws driver can still drive the wc championship to be familiar for the next year if his pace follows.
Make the introduction of a WS driver into the WC championship later in the season ( 7 or 8th race )
For the team who don't have a 2nd driver for example, they can still have a WS driver per race, ( ex : Frooo, a WS driver scores 18 points, he can't continue in WC, the team can put another WS/WT driver the next round )

I hope i won't be trolled. It's the most logic rule in my sense

 

[Chris de Jong]

Why then you let Tacito to race in WT race when you knew that he is with hack and that would destroy someone's race or worse, spectators to see that there are cheaters in FSR ?

Dian Kostadinov here with the haymaker, a full on right hander under the chin K.O i think at certain stages of the race its not allowed to enter a corner faster even if the only reason u can take it faster is -100 liters. where is zeh law?

 

[Chris de Jong]

I am not WT race director, first of all. And second, to ban a cheater you need an evidence, in this case a log.

david you talk so much about ruining races, i remember my first race SPA last year when there where 5 minutes to go in warm up, someone said brb toilet ( since we still had 5 minutes ) you started anyway because "we where late on scedule" u dont give 2 shts about ones race being destroyed.

 

[Chris de Jong]

Say whatever you want, I don't care. You are simply wrong.

Anyway, since you are so worried about what the rules say, this is what they say:



If you think there is nothing wrong on the video I shared previously (plus the fact that he simply ran with half tank on purpose, as we say during warmup) then I have nothing else to add.

ehm david about those rules patrick did not touch anyone of the track, as a matter of fact someone is not wrong because ":he simply is wrong" your a smart person david you know how to convince people of your point but a wise person would see what the other ment and imo your not wise to try to see his point of view.

 

[Chris de Jong]

First of all, if you read all the posts made by admins, you will not find a single attack or reference to the past etc. Everything that admins have stated regarding his behaviour in this race has been factual, whether you want to believe it or not.

You guys are ignoring the fact that this was a major breach of the online etiquette (at least in my view), which makes it a huge issue on it's own, even without considering any possible past issues.

If we want to make a comparison with F1, they had no rule against a driver crashing on purpose to cause a Safety Car period and help his teammate (singapore 2008), but they have loopholes in their rules which allow them to do whatever they want when they see things happening which are clearly wrong. The same thing applies to FSR, so please stop talking about the issue of there not being a specific rule for this situation.

I have nothing against Pat personally, but there's no arguing the fact that he has made some very bad decisions not too long ago (Canada) and again here. Also if we want to talk about the past:

When I started as WC race director in the beginning of 2010, Pat was a fraction away from getting a season ban. However since I knew part of the reason why he had a few issues in 2009, I wanted to give Pat another chance and proceeded to talk with Pat on two occasions in length.

We decided that we would start fresh, forgetting about the issues of the past and just focus on clean racing. The admins/team bosses who were concerned about him trusted me in giving him a chance, and also that if things went bad, that I would step in and do the right thing.

It worked fine for the most part, other than the incident in Brazil with Bruno, for which he got a 1 race ban.

Again after that incident, numerous people (admins & teambosses) wanted Pat to be banned, but again I basicly put my neck on the line for him, convincing them to give him another chance.

2011 and 2012 went without any major incidents (that I can at least remember), so things were looking good. However, it's clear that this incident and what happened in Canada have brought back a lot of memories for people from 2009/2010 and earlier.

Any talks in this thread of season bans etc. are just speculation, but this incident is very serious in my opinion, evident by the fact that it has gotten so much attention.

As for mentions of "dislike" or "personal interests", that might be true for some team owners/members, but it's irrelevant for admins. If you can't trust the league admins to be unbiased and trustworthy, there's nothing that can be done to change that, I for one am tired of having to try to prove myself every 6 months.

Btw, I still like Pat.

Etiquettes... who cares about etiquettes? i rather eat in a mcdonalds than in a 3 michelin star restaurant where they serve frog legs ( ok morand as a frenchmen you would prefer the froglegs ) but Patrick did not cross any rule, not even a point in thinking about a form of penalty, rather apologies to him for not letting him race. I must say i can clearly understand why you kicked him out of the race mikko. I understand it but i dont agree with it. If it was a rule then ofc pat his own fault, there isnt ANY rule that says you have to start with full tank, only to respect other drivers which he did by not crashing others etc. Instead of feeling offended please try to put yourselfs in his position and according to the rules you admins made ( im thinking about the david ---> leppala comment now :Who where pre season testers oh wait its you ville ) the rules YOU admins made do not say you have to start full tank. deal with it.