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Race #06,Monaco: Post-Race Checks

Discussion in 'Formula SimRacing' started by John-Eric Saxén, May 15, 2010.

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  1. Below the results from the sixth round, less surprisingly lots of incidents this time.

    Andrey Yakimenko
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Ben Tusting
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Clayton Nelmes
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Cyril Wermuller
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: 0.5 penalty points for incident #9.

    Danny Roberts
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    David Martinez
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Dennis Furchheim
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Dimitri De Matos
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Fred Gosling
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Giuseppe Marconi
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: N/A
    Pitstops: N/A
    Penalty: N/A

    Henning Cordes
    PQ: Rejected (sent lap from FP)
    Q1: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Sart from back of the grid for wrong hot lap sent.

    Jack Keithley
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Warning and 0.5 penalty points for not following pit limits in PQ.

    Joakim Bengtsson
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: 0.5 penalty points for incident #4.

    John Debacquer
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: N/A
    Pitstops: N/A
    Penalty: N/A

    Karim Wezenberg
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Kerkar Abdelaziz
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: N/A
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: N/A
    Pitstops: N/A
    Penalty: Warning and 0.5 penalty points for not following pit limit in PQ

    Marco Conti
    PQ: No file
    Q1: No file
    Log: Missing PQ
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Sart from back of the grid for no hot laps sent. Warning and 0.5 penalty points for missing PQ log.

    Mario Witzorreck
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Mattias Stahre
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: +45 seconds race time and 1.5 penalty points for incidents #10 and #11.

    Miguel Seoane
    PQ: No file
    Q1: N/A
    Log: No file
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Sart from back of the grid for no hot lap sent. Warning and 0.5 penalty points for missing PQ log.

    Mindaugas Klumbis
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: 2 penalty points for incident #5.

    Nebojsa Tramosljika
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: 1 penalty point for incident #6.

    Pablo Garcia
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Petter Kaasa
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Rando Muru
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Sammy Sekowski
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Samuel Libeert
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A

    Santiago Niza
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: +30 seconds race time and 2 penalty points for incident #12.

    Scott Wilde
    PQ: No file (due to last race? :))
    Q1: N/A
    Log: No file (due to last race? :))
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: Warning and 0.5 penalty points for missing PQ log. Start from back of the grid for no hot lap sent.

    Stefan Kanitz
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: N/A
    ¨
    Stephane Rouault
    PQ: N/A
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: 1 penalty point for incident #2.

    Timon Bolier
    PQ: Clean
    Q1: Clean
    Log: Clean
    Launch Control: Used
    Pitstops: Clean
    Penalty: +15 seconds race time and 0.5 penalty points for incident #4.


    Incidents

    #1 Stephane Rouault - Mattias Stahre- Qualifying 6:55

    Description: Rouault exits the pits ahead while Stahre in behind has just started his hot lap. Rouault keeps ahead of Stahre into turn 3, where he slows down early on the racing line, resulting in contact between the two.

    Verdict: Rouault had enough time to move aside during the Beau Rivage straight, where several drivers successfully avoided a hot lapping car. The avoiding maneuvre of Rouault into T3 was also unsuccessful due to early braking, causing the incident. 1 penalty point.

    #2 Cyril Werdmuller - Karim Wezenberg - Qualifying 8:20

    Description: Werdmuller is exiting the last chicane on an outlap while Wezenberg on a hot lap
    approaches from behind. Werdmuller exits the corner and moves to the inside in order to let Wezenberg past, but Wezenberg spins in an avoiding attempt before this.

    Verdict: Werdmuller kept on the racing line through the corner, thus slightly affecting Wezenberg, but the distance between the two was still more than a car length at all points. With more patience and a less aggressive switch of line Wezenberg could have avoided the spin and passed Werdmuller with little time loss. Racing incident.

    #3 Mattias Stahre - Dimitri De Matos- T1 Lap 1

    Description: De Matos enters the queue in turn 1 and has to slow down somewhat more than usual. Stahre from behind has slight contact with De Matos in middle of the corner, unsettling the rear of De Matos.

    Verdict: Racing incident. Similar small contact took place between multiple cars in T1, mainly due to the narrow corner and queue formation.

    #4 Joakim Bengtsson - Timon Bolier - Karim Wezenberg - Stephane Rouault T1-T2 Lap 1

    Description: After T1 exit Bengtsson cuts across the track to the left side in order to pass Bolier, forcing Wezenberg alongside to brake. The same repeats as Bolier cuts across to defend, forcing Bengtsson to brake, while Wezenberg is unable to react in time and loses his front wing, as does Rouault.

    Verdict: 0.5 penalty points to Bengtsson for cutting across too late, forcing Wezenberg to brake. 0.5 penalty points and 15 seconds race time to Bolier for the same move, which lead to more severe consequences.

    #5 Mindaugas Klumbis - Multiple cars - T2 Lap 1

    Description: Klumbis is reaching the top of the Beau Rivage straight when he initiates braking very early, after which he continues on throttle. Libeert breaks heavily in order to avoid Klumbis, and in turn gets hit by Cordes from behind, and the same repeats for Tramosljika and Furchheim, all of the cars losing wings.

    Verdict: Klumbis was unnecessarily cautious into turn 3, as he had no car ahead in close distance, whilst still braking earliest of all cars, and when realizing this, re-applying throttle later on. The move was clearly not intentional, but due to the severe consequences, 2 penalty points are given.

    #6 Nebojsa Tramosljika - Multiple cars - T3 Lap 1

    Description: Tramosljika loses both wings after sudden chain collision inolving multiple cars.
    Thereafter, he spins around and continues rolling towards the racing line in reversed direction, resulting in wing losses for Gosling and Roberts.

    Verdict: The first incident was unavoidable from Tramosljika's perspective, but the consequent
    incident involving Gosling and Roberts could have been avoided by not steering into the racing line and applying brakes sooner. Due to the unusual circumstances, penalty is reduced to 0.5 penalty points, converting into 1 penalty point due to retirement.

    #7 Samuel Libeert - T3 Lap 1

    Description: Libeert loses both of his wings in the incident with Klumbis, attempts to re-enter the racing line and spins.

    Verdict: The driver could have done a better job of being more cautious due to loss of both wings, and thus could have prevented the spin, but since no other cars were involved, no penalty is given.

    #8 Sammy Sekowski - Mattias Stahre - Main straight Lap 17

    Description: Sekowski enters the main straight in front of Stahre and appears to cut across the track slightly.

    Verdict: No obvious weaving can be spotted from the onboard of Sekowski, the illusion had more to do with the driving line which goes from right to left on the main straight. No penalty.

    #9 Cyril Werdmuller - Dimitri De Matos - T5 Lap 32

    Description: Werdmuller passes De Matos on the inside going into Mirabeau, with the help of slight contact.

    Verdict: The move was otherwise clean, except that Werdmuller runs somewhat wide, forcing De Matos to yield, accompanied by slight contact. 0.5 penalty points to Werdmuller.

    #10 Mattias Stahre - Marco Conti - T5 Lap 59

    Description: Stahre passes Conti going into Mirabeau, yielded by late braking and contact.

    Verdict: Conti is significantly ahead going into the corner, and the pass of Stahre was only possible due to late braking and contact. Due to no damage and only slight contact, 0.5 penalty points and 15 seconds race time penalty are handed to Stahre.

    #11 Mattias Stahre - Santiago Niza - Laps 66, 67

    Description: Stahre is following Niza closely several laps and various small contacts take place.
    Eventually, Stahre pushes Niza somewhat wide in T8, and with the help of the move goes past.

    Verdict: Stahre is overly aggressive in attempting an overtake. In the final contact, Stahre's
    overtaking was clearly aided by the contact, which forced Niza to run wide and lose the position. 1 penalty point and 30 seconds race time penalty to Stahre.

    #12 Santiago Niza - Multiple drivers - T5 Lap 72

    Description: Niza attempts a late overtake of Keithly and spins as a result of the contact. Thereafter Niza attempts to straighten his car but spins again, resulting in front wing losses for Werdmuller and Furchheim, and during the third re-entry attempt, a front wing loss for Klumbis.

    Verdict: 0.5 penalty points to Niza for the overtaking attempt on Keithly, which was initiated late and caused contact. 1 penalty point and 30 seconds race time penalty for the first rejoining spin, which could have been avoided with more careful driving and resulted in several cars losing front wings. 0.5 penalty points for the final re-entry, resulting in loss of front wing for Klumbis, which again could have been avoided by observing the car of Klumbis approaching in the right corner of the screen.

    --------------------------------

    Update:

    The ISR Club Board, by an unanimous vote result, has decided that teams Precision Motorsports and Leoncavallo Precision Motorsports are to be penalized with 40 constructor points each, due to repeated offenses, as well as driver Nebojsa Tramosljika to be given an official warning, for breaking rule 15.4 of the FSR 2010 Season rules.

     
  2. Sorry I don't understand #4. I avoided a collision with Bolier and is punished for it. If anything I should get praise for being alert and avoiding an even more serious pileup up the hill on the first lap. There was never an intention for me to block anyone. I turned left to avoid running into the back of Timon, which he himself acknowledged in the old forum.
     
  3. This is the video from my start. If anyone interested would like to see what happened, a marshal for example. What can be seen on the video is that Bolier and one other car, Kanitz? tangle in T1 and 1 FW is lost and Bolier has a terrible exit of T1. My exit is better but not good and I get closer to Bolier in the acceleration. I then turn slightly left to get a clear view and get a chance to pressure Bolier. This fails and I tuck in behind to gain a slipstream. Then Bolier unexpectedly lifts in the middle of acceleration. I have to lift aswell and turn left to avoid running into the back of his car. Bolier is also punished for causing this incident with 0.5 points and 15 seconds. Does FSR give penalties for avoiding accidents? This is a quote from Bolier on the old forum that should clear myself from blame in the case of Wesenberg's lost FW.

    "Yeah guys, I was stuck in low boost and you all came up with B10 I suppose, I didn't know all this happened until I saw the replay. I didn't even know I blocked Joakim as I was busy with other things. Very unlucky chain of events, sorry Karim."

    Bolier was busy doing other things on low boost in an uphill acceleration. I was going full blast on B10 to make the best of my start, looking forward to avoid running into the back of people ahead, (which I succeeded in) assuming people behind were doing the same thing to avoid running into people infront of them (which they were unsuccessfull in).
     
  4. Here's the vid. :)
     

    Attached Files:

  5. If you read it well Joakim, you are penalized for cutting across Karim too late and not for avoiding to hit the back of Bolier when he cutted you off too after.
     
  6. I was stuck in low boost (was mistake) and they all came up in boost 10 up the hill, it was not like I had a bad exit or lifted, the whole incident was not on purpose really and a chain reaction. So for me it's a racing incident which I caused, while i never had a clue it happened until I saw the post race discussion and replay that I moved in front of Joakim who really couldn't much. It's just the risk first lap especially uphill with all the S corners where you swing through anyway with only one racing line, one car width available.
     
  7. It's as Pedro said, both penalties came from cutting across too late on the car behind. I acknowledge it was mainly incidental, the penalties however reflect that, otherwise they would have been much bigger for causing a front wing loss.
     
  8. Yeah, no problem m8, thanks
     
  9. I still have a problem. There was no wings lost from the "cut across" I did at Wesenberg out of T1. Bolier was slow and I tried to pass him. I couldn't and tucked in behind. He missed a shift or whatever, suddenly dropped some straight line speed and I had to lift which took Wesenberg's FW off. That sucks for him but it's a race incident.

    Yes the penalty for me is very small but it's still a penalty for somthing I don't see as a crime, yet I'm treated like a bad guy. I'm a fair guy and really wanted to get rid off the penalty points I deserved at Bahrain for unsafe rejoin. Turkey was supposed to be clean race #5 and that would be it. Now because of this quasi incident there are another five races to go to get rid of the penalty points. I have a problem with that. It might seem petty but I take some pride in being fair and honest.

    These small things just slowly eat into the fun of racing here. I love the racing, surely do but I'm getting so sick and tired of this chasing of penalties for everything and anything. Just because you technically can give a penalty for cutting across it doesn't mean you have to see the worst in people. Look at the intention. Was there a sinister intention in what I did? Was there any realistic options for me? Is it normal for a race driver to have a speed advantage out of a slow corner and not try to capitalise? I'm sure the overwhealming majority of FSR drivers want fair and clean races, me as much as anyone, but things that happened in this situation can't be punished away. And if it can't be penalised away there is no point in handing out a penalty for it. Racing incidents will always happen no matter how harsh penalties you hand out.

    Can I appeal it to make it a conditional penalty? If it happens again at Turkey you double it, if Turkey is clean that is my 5th race? I want to be fair, truly and honestly and this doesn't feel fair in return from the league.
     
  10. Regarding the incident, in my view it was a cut-across since Wezenberg's front wing was alongside and he had to apply the brakes, and even so there was slight contact between the cars. As you said yourself it is not allowed in the rules, so I don't see any reason to why I am not entitled to give a penalty. If a rule breach is done there must be some strong reason for a penalty not to be given, in my view. A somewhat slower straight line speed of the car in front does not take away the responsibility of cutting across, again in my view. Intention is a secondary thing to the rulebook for me, if you ask the drivers probably 99% of all incidents were not intentional. To me it makes no difference to the penalty whether a driver is considered fair or not.

    I would also hope drivers/teams could look above single incidents without just their own penalty points in mind and see what advantages the penalty system has brought in the big picture. I've been racing here since 2006 and definitely the best years in terms of racing where the first and second, not surprisingly because penalties were tightest back then (at least in WC). In the long term a strict penalty policy has no doubt more advantages than disadvantages. The penalty scale and number of incidents are very much correlated, just compare with any fun league without penalties and count the incidents.

    Of course, this means drivers have to pay costly for mistakes and from time to time it may seem that some penalties are unfair, like this one, but that's just because the tolerance is tight, which it has to be if we we want to keep away from some of the problems in the last few years. I wouldn't mind to make it easy for myself and hand out just warnings for incidents, that would probably stop most of the angry responses from subjective managers/drivers, but I know from experience it's not the way to go in the long run. Listening too much to teams' or drivers' view's has its disadvantages also, since a stronger team has always more influence.

    Regarding the 5-race incident rule system, the first suggested system only required 3 races incident free, but the TOA thought this is too low and voted to change the rule from 3 clean races to 5, which Twister and most other teams voted on. Regarding appeals I suggest you speak with Mikko, there is no formal rule for appeals in WS this year.
     
  11. I have no problem with 0.5 points. It's a minor offence, if it's even an offence, which a subjective matter, you made the desicion that it is and 0.5 points is not much and I accept that. However another 5 races on parole for something that barely is an offence is what really bothers me. That's where the real penalty is. I know I screwed up at Bahrain and deserved to be handed a penalty for that. Since then I've done my utmost efforts to be super clean to get rid of those points and get on with it. Now, because of this I have another 5 races where crossing the pit exit and then DNF will give me a pitlane start. That is not in proportion to the "crime" commited here.

    If FSR policy is for drivers to drive around afraid because minor offences can give you a pitlane start or even strip your license then it's working very well. Causing accident because of low skill or bad judgement needs to be punished. Agree completely on that. Almost causing accidents in a normal racing situation can't be punished away. When two cars or more fight for position there can always be situations when one party has to take avoiding action, that does not mean the league has to go after everone like a North Korean military trial.
     
  12. The first post (by JES) has been updated with a Board vote decision, to be seen at the very bottom of the post.
     
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