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Quick money maker or Focused rally sim

Discussion in 'DiRT Rally' started by Msportdan, Jul 2, 2015.

  1. Msportdan

    @ Simberia @Simberia

    I want to bring you attention to a post I recently just read from a user.

    "As this EA progresses I'm losing hope things will get fixed. Sure, they redid the FFB, but I still say rbr's is better. Aside from content, it's pretty much the same game they started with. Features that are missing, issues with handling and physics, gameplay bugs and bugs in general that were there in the beginning are still outstanding. It seems like all the people they do have working on it, are working on the content packs.

    And I was under the impression they were out to make a sim, especially with the one dev claiming how unrealistic rbr actually is. But on their forums, one player that seems to be "in" with the devs is already getting the word out that the devs' intention is to create an "authentic rally experience, not a simulator." Could be something, could be nothing. But other than biglee commenting on random posts here or there, there's not much communication."

    I am starting to think, if what CM really want and what us sim goers want is one in the same thing. I cant say it any better than function has above. But I do see more content than actual features being fixed. I couldn't care if there was one car and one stage, if they could concentrate on FFB, physics, wheel rotations etc etc. I just see content seems to be more a priority over actual features that rally fans would rather see. I know its EA but I think the direction/priorities the devs are taking, says a lot about what the end product they are actually striving for.

    Maybe we wont get that RBR killer after all......
  2. I have 2 mind-sets on this.
    My Dev brain says this type of talk now is stupid. It is entirely reasonable from a dev perspective to not fix things like FFB or Physics before you have all the cars and tracks that those functions need to work with. Otherwise you could potentially be adding a great deal of additional work onto the teams plate to re-do these later when it turns out they don't work properly on a specific car/track for some specialised reason.

    My Modder brain can't help but remember Operation Flashpoint Dragon Rising and the way in which Codemasters developed that game (and its sequel). This side of me believes absolutely nothing CM says as they have flat out lied to my face and the community so many times. This side of me also thinks that CM will stop working on this the second the money stops. Just like Dragon Rising.

    Thankfully I do not think the team that was behind OFDR is behind Dirt Rally.
  3. I think you are heavily overestimating the number of people working on DiRT Rally.

    Ever since Codemasters starting hitting financial trouble in the last couple of years, they've clearly had to change their approach. Looks like the F1 team retains their focus, and the improved EGO engine was presumably developed with F1 primarily in mind.

    I get the impression that DiRT Rally went early access because they realized with limited resources they needed to test the waters before committing to a more sim-like game, since otherwise they would have had a serious problem. As it is, depending on sales of the early access and overall feedback it's very possible Codemasters will alter their approach and not aim for the most hardcore of results: cost-benefit analysis of the bottom line is more important than a few tens of "we must have more realistic than RBR" simracing nuts.

    To get cross at Codemasters for being slow or for ever daring to leave their comfort zone won't help. Only constructive criticism and encouragement of the sim elements is going to have an effect, and only if the larger voice of feedback agrees.

    Personally I think DiRT Rally is in a decent place right now and content is exactly what it needs. Fixing the FFB is something for 1-2 guys in Codemasters' team, not for all those vehicle and scenery artists who are making the graphical assets for the new content...surely people here understand that?
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Msportdan

    @ Simberia @Simberia

    But that "new" content still needs coding guys in some sort of degree surely!?!

    So in fact they are taking away coding resources for the fixes we need. I still think CM have an agenda and it may not be what we want.
  5. James Maskell

    James Maskell
    "Remember the name! Tommy Vercetti!"

    What if the coding had been finished quite a while ago for the "new" content. What if the content is actually old in terms of coding and was purely waiting for the models and artist work to be finished before they were released.
  6. Msportdan

    @ Simberia @Simberia

  7. Andy Jackson

    Andy Jackson
    Sponsored by BRUT Premium Member

    Now I remember where I recall your nickname Templar.

    I loved your work on OFDR and I still love playing the game now. My thanks to you, even if it is a bit late.
    I might go and have a quick battle on OFDR tonight.

    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
  8. Daniel Monteiro

    Daniel Monteiro
    Premium Member

    You still have hope?...

    Why would they be releasing more and more cars (even shown in their timeline) if they were not satisfied with the physics model of the car? Them being satisfied does not mean we will. And why would they bother to come out with more and more models of cars if the physics model was not yet finalised? All cars have 4 wheel and are driven on the same planet, so the base physics model should be the same for all cars, regardless of the era and tarction type (at least if it is done properly, of course. I do have an understanding of vehicle dynamics, but I could be wrong).

    And when you see the kind of pitch they make, with one of the developpers being a "rally driver" (instead of a top class WRC driver like Richard Burns) to give the input and first-hand feedback of rally cars: it's the same pitch that PC made with the racing driver (Ben Collins if I am not wrong) - do you not see a pattern? That in the end, Codemasters wants to make money above all else? Like every company? Because they have in order to keep in business? (again, my theory...)

    I don't mean anything negative or against Codemasters people with my post:

    - my intention (after having read endless and meaningless ranting on the PC and PC2 forums) is to show to people that expect everything they want from an early access game that they should analyse everything that is around them before they start asking for the world.

    For some reason RBR is still the most played and more realistically modelled rally game (and for the same reason the WRC games never got the same fever or popularity). And in the same chain of thought, that is maybe also the reason that SCI Studios and Warthog were not much heard of since after RBR came out. Although it pleased many people, it simply did not transform that pleasure in sales numbers, and we never saw a sequel (but that is just my theory, the reason could be another...)

    In the end it comes down to what people expect: if you want a career mode and official content you go and play the WRC games, if you want some driving thrills at the computer you play RBR, and if you want the most real physics that rally cars offer and just keep complaining about how they are wrong in the games (which are games, hence why they are called "games"), then have a go at rallying in real life.

  9. Refining the Physics system now, before all types of cars are in is a risk from a developer point of view, as the refinement may need to be redone when different cars are added. For example if they refined the physics system now, and added DAKAR rally vehicles into the game, the physics would probably need a lot of reworking for them to drive as well as the other vehicles due to the differences in them to "normal" rally cars.

    I just think its too early for this sort of talk. Its not like CM teased us with Dirt Rally for a year before releasing it onto EA. It came out of nowhere and has really not been out for very long.
  10. Im more than happy with the physics and ffb as it is right now, loving the game tbh.
  11. Releasing new cars has little to do with the physics engine (or even specific car handling). "New cars" is mostly artwork (i.e. how they look), which has nothing to do with how they handle. That is something that is done independently, and can always be tweaked later. But the main artwork for the new cars nevertheless has to be finished first (as nobody wants to drive around in a nondescript brick).

    EVERY racing game EVER had "feedback" from racers. That statement by itself means nothing. Sometimes the racers just endorse a product for some easy money, and sometimes they would like to get involved, but are told by the developers and marketing guys that "too much" realism doesn't sell. But ask yourself seriously — if you're a top notch racer in real life, how much time and effort are you going to spend on a racing GAME??? If you can spend you working hours in a REAL CAR?
    Their involvement will be, at best, a little hobby, but no world-class, professional, driver will spend the time and effort it takes to create a true simulation, with weeks and months of fine-tuning, to get everything right. Only a dedicated developer can do that, and if he has actual racing experience, then that input is worth more than a few days visit by some famous racer. (Or do you really think Loeb Rally will be more realistic than Dirt Rally is?!)
  12. Andy Jackson

    Andy Jackson
    Sponsored by BRUT Premium Member

    I'm quite happy with physics and FFB right now. All I want is a proper external track side replay.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Mark Reynolds

    Mark Reynolds
    Physics & AI Programmer

    I think it is a winner already, I am enjoying playing it, and I am looking forward to see what they bring in the future for the series.

    This game at the moment kinda reminds me a little of Rally Trophy.
    • Like Like x 1
  14. I might get jumped for this, but from the little I've tried RBR, I didn't like driving it. From what I've read RBR's physics engine is still unmatched but I simply didn't enjoy it.
    I got DiRT Rally at launch and since the FFB update, and with Templar's tweaks I've truly been enjoying the experience. The content's been great so far and I'm liking the direction so far.

    Unlike a lot of simracers, I'm not that anal about everything being super-incredibly accurate. Codies' packages have almost always been great and if the driving model stays similar I will be enjoying the challenge.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. The physics as well as the ffb of the rear wheel drive cars on the dirt and gravel feels extremely good but once you get the same rwd car on pavement or concrete, the grip becomes excessive. When you get a a 4wd car on dirt or gravel things get really weird as they become very "sludgy" and slow and sticky as if they are on a different surface. The braking distance is about half that of a 2wd car and also the inverted countersteer remains in the FFB which requires the driver to fight the wheel in a slide when it should be automatic. Also the loss of grip on pavement(as mentioned many times) goes from 100 to 0 instantly in a slide.

    If this game were judged on cars with rwd on gravel/dirt, I would give it a 95 out of 100. It's that good! If I had to score it on 4wd cars on pavement/concrete, I would give it a 30 out of 100. It is that bad!
  16. The AWD cars will be newer, will have more powerful and more sophisticated brake systems (perhaps even ABS by default), and engine braking will affect all wheels. So you can't really compare the two.
    But it doesn't really matter how the two compare. Just familiarize yourself with the performance envelope of a specific car, and don't worry about what a different one does. In real life braking isn't that consistent either. Sometimes you get a good, sometime a bad batch of pads, sometimes they overheat, sometimes they're dirty. Just take what you get, and make the best out of it. That's racing...

    I had the same issue, until I finally found a wheel setting where the counter-steering felt natural (but it's for a G27).

    That can happen in real life, but also, your setup, surface, and driving style play a role here.
    I don't feel that the traction loss is modeled badly, and I've lost it plenty of times IRL...
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Arne Dopudja

    Arne Dopudja
    Leader of the infamous Chevy Gang.

    For the money I've paid, they could finish developing right now and I wouldn't be bothered.
    • Like Like x 1
  18. So true
    I'd be bothered only because Im greedy and I want more!
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. From whaching the last pod cast , they touched on a few things one they have used an overseas developer to working some of the newer content.

    The FFB is still not finished , CM have made some changes to the newer cars & Stages these will need to be also added to the older content .

    As will any other update's sounds like Rally Cross is the next update .
    I like the last update the German stages for me work the best after Greece with Monti still needing some re-working.

    Also I get to drive my fav Lancia 0,37 even if the sounds are still not correct for now.
    I could be money grab, or just the fact due to dropping game sales across the games market.
    At last games developers have to give a better deal to the end buyer & not just release half harted crap

    Out of all the current Rally based games been worked on this still looks like the best offering.
  20. This kind of speculation is waste of time for me personally.
    I have learned to wait for the end result. (if there ever is one, since modern PC sims, and console a like are very long processes and get updated for years after official launch.)

    I see no reason why wouldn't CM do everything and then some concerning what they have said to be the plans for Dirt Rally.
    Obviously you can pull likelyhoods from the history, but that just kills such a lovely buzz for a fun and entertaining rally experience.

    Enjoy what you can today, and worry about tomorrow... tomorrow.
    To quote a kung fu master:
    • Winner Winner x 1