• "Bwoah." - Generic Kimi Quotes.
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. There's no such thing as a stupid question.

Tracks Portland (2 seasons, 2 layouts) 1.06

Vanport for Automobilista

  1. ZethGAF

    ZethGAF

    Messages:
    390
    Ratings:
    +91
    Are you using Qualifying compound? Pretty sure the AI will use C Compound by default to qualify. Someone correct me if i'm wrong!
     
  2. Fabian Biehne

    Fabian Biehne
    Premium

    Messages:
    358
    Ratings:
    +182
    No...in the race I used the normal C compounds.
     
  3. Patrick Giranthon

    Patrick Giranthon
    Premium

    Messages:
    3,079
    Ratings:
    +4,913
  4. Dave_6

    Dave_6
    Premium

    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +79
    Getting a full hard lock of my PC when trying to load into this track with the CART Extreme mod. Newest version of the CART mod and the Megapack version of the track. It loads in to where I'm in the garage but then I can't click anything. Have to press the reset button on my PC to get out of the game, Steam etc.
     
  5. Gringo

    Gringo
    Premium

    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +363
    Hi,

    Thanks for the report, it seems that recent changes (not sure whats up, but we are investigating) to the AMS shaders have broken this track.

    A fix should come soon.

    Cheers


    Edit... It looks like the no chicane layout is working. The problem seems to be in the chicane version AIW some where.

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Gringo

    Gringo
    Premium

    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +363
    I found the problem that affects the Chicane Layout, the No Chicane layout is working.

    Until the full update is released that will bring this AIW fix plus a few minor optimizations, you can download the attached file to replace the "Vanport.AIW" and "VanportSum.AIW".

    Download "VanportSum.AIW.txt" and rename to "VanportSum.AIW" and "Vanport.AIW"... and over write the original files.
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 6
  7. Dave_6

    Dave_6
    Premium

    Messages:
    213
    Ratings:
    +79
    Thanks! Yep forgot to mention that is was the chicane version I was trying.
     
  8. P*Funk

    P*Funk

    Messages:
    892
    Ratings:
    +333
    So I'm finding that with the CARTs the AI is really slow in the first turn chicane, so much slower that I practically run them over lap after lap even if they're slightly faster than me in the rest of the course.

    In the Target Ganassi car at 103% difficulty with either High or Max aggression overall lap times at the top being 59.4xx-59.6xx I can pretty much match the fastest car in lap time but that's with me upwards of 7-8 tenths faster than them in sector one. All my time on them is made up in the braking zone and the entry to the corner. They really get slow, so slow that I can run into the rear of a solo car from half a second back. They power out of the chicane just great and the rest of the sector seems just fine.

    Examining replays they're down to like 50 something mph before the apex whereas I'm carrying above 60 mph through to the apex and falling to low 50s when I power out. They will usually beat me at exit but that doesn't matter as I've made up a huge chunk of time on entry making the next lap easy to pass on.
     
  9. Gringo

    Gringo
    Premium

    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +363
    Not sure what you expect to get from your post.

    Post the replay of your lap.
     
  10. P*Funk

    P*Funk

    Messages:
    892
    Ratings:
    +333
    Consideration by the AIW author that gaining the better part of a second in one corner on AI that are the same speed or faster than a human driver in every other corner might be worth a look.

    With any kind of consistency in lap time it becomes trivial to pass even 2 AI cars in that one corner lap after lap. I just think that one corner seems to be driven by the AI well below the relative pace it drives in every other corner. In order to even drive at the same pace of the AI over a full lap I have to set the difficulty % to a level where the other two sectors are faster than I can drive. So for two thirds of the lap the AI are technically faster than me but even barely sucking any draft on the front straight I can dive beside them comfortably to take a position.

    Before I upload an example I can say the line the AI takes into the corner seems a bit wide. It looks like its out far enough left that the left wheels of the car go off the clean line and into the dirty part of the track. That far to the left before turn in might be forcing the AI to take much less speed past the apex.
     
  11. Gringo

    Gringo
    Premium

    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +363
    You should keep this point in mind, the CART mod AI is easy to beat compared to other cars.

    For whatever reason the AI in general are not able to navigate this track element... I don't have a solution for it. I was considering writing new AIW's for Vanport as I am not happy with what we have but I have spent way too much time on it already, with other projects to do.

    Edit: Oh well, spend a bit more time it is then. Do post your lap thru the chicane, a motec telemetry file would be helpful, maybe some detail can be learned to fix this issue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  12. P*Funk

    P*Funk

    Messages:
    892
    Ratings:
    +333
    Well I don't want you to waste your time unduly if its not workable. I'll try and offer my observations as best I can.

    I've included some pictures and a short replay comparing my chicane line to the AIs. I used the third place AI in this example as his run through the chicane can be seen at the start of the replay and mine at the end. His times in sectors 2 and 3 are also about a tenth faster than mine even though his sector 1 is a 23.8xx while mine is a 23.09x.

    The attached pictures compare three things. The speed through turn 2 and the apex of turn 1, car position at turn 1 apex, and line through turn 1. The speed is obviously a big difference with me being 11 MPH faster at the apex of turn 1. You can also see that the AI line makes for a slightly better exit but that's less important for this chicane as its a short run to the next corner and its clearly much better to carry as much speed to turn 2 and compromise it a little bit.

    The turn 2 speed comparison is measuring the point when the cars go below 61MPH, reach minimum speed, then go above it again. I'm clearly compromising my run through turn 2 but I can also drive this better if I tried without losing my turn 1 speed. The AI clearly spends way more time below 60MPH through most of the chicane that his better exit from turn 2 offers little advantage overall. The turn 1 line is showing the point of turn in, apex, then turn out.

    Chicane Speed Comparison.jpg Chicane Apex Comparison.jpg Chicane Line Comparison.jpg

    Looking at this onboard of a real Champ car I think my line is pretty much the same. Turn in is kind of a progressive curl towards the first apex in the chicane instead of it being just a straight line braking then later turn in. The real life driver takes turn 2 better but I could too if I practice more and did some set up changes which I haven't. The AI seems to stay way more to the left and turns in sharper to turn 1. If I do the same thing I tend to lose equivalent time to what the AI seems to lose.



    Overall I don't really have any other complaints for the AIW as a whole. Its actually quite good how consistent the AI is compared to a human pace everywhere but that one corner. The AI also seems to really be less prone to bashing you about in this AIW so its a really good one for doing long-ish races even with the turn 1 issue.
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 2
  13. Gringo

    Gringo
    Premium

    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +363
    Good details for sure.

    I will give it another go. The AI are not breaking into the first apex correctly and don't seem to calculate the speed quite right.

    The bumps just after the second apex seem to have a large effect on the AI as well.

    In addition the corridors at the chicane are hacked into a mess to fix a standing start issue, that won't help the AI make the best choices.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Gringo

    Gringo
    Premium

    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +363
    @P*Funk and PIR fans please test this new AIW for the Vanport Chicane layout and post your comments.


    EDIT Attachment removed
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
    • Like Like x 2
  15. P*Funk

    P*Funk

    Messages:
    892
    Ratings:
    +333
    Wilco.
     
  16. P*Funk

    P*Funk

    Messages:
    892
    Ratings:
    +333
    So having done a few races with it and toyed with the settings I can report that the new AIW is a bit of a mixed bag sadly.

    Positives are that the AI appears to be exiting the final turn better meaning the race to turn 1 is much more challenging. The AI is taking the chicane much faster which is good but the braking into it is still a bit sluggish and its easy to get along side from way back even without dive bombing. Overall though the fight for a turn 1 pass is more challenging than before. I cannot be assured of a clean pass just because I get along side so judgment has to be used. I cannot easily just pass two cars into turn 1 anymore either. Lets call that problem mostly solved.

    The major downside to this is that AI behavior through and out of the chicane is much ruder than before with the starts of races from a rolling start much messier than before. Getting cleanly through turn 1 for either the player or the AI is much less assured. Turn 1 Lap 1 feels crazier than it used to.

    Also the AI seems to do a weird thing on the front straight where it floats from the left to the middle of the straight then brakes to the left towards its turn in point which is a new behavior. Its like its always defending the passing line and this discourages all AI passing. AI never seem to pass on the straight compared to before. Before they would pass one another occasionally and surrender the corner fairly enough. In one race with the new AIW I had AI Jimmy Vasser spin at the start and he spent 21 laps stuck behind PJ Jones in last place always right up on his tail never ever once passing him or even making a move to pass. This means a car with a lap time advantage of at least 2 seconds on average would not pass the slowest car on the grid. The only passes I've seen consistently happen are from the human disturbing the AI enough that other AI can capitalize.

    Its too bad because the experience of racing them was enjoyable for the difficulty and not being able to so easily dive bomb turn 1 was great. I'm gonna keep doing a few races to see if my estimates are accurate. I appreciate the effort in making these changes.
     
  17. Gringo

    Gringo
    Premium

    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +363
    Yes by design, I decided to remove this feature as it did not have the intended effect. AI passing in general is abnormal, the AI in the draft will lift instead of making a passing attempt. This has been a chronic issue with rF AI and AFAIK the problem is not in the AIW.

    What do you want fast or friendly?

    Keep in mind there is a lot going on with T1 on this layout... the pit lane merges at T1, a long straight into a slow chicane, the main straight is twice as wide compared to the entry to the chicane. PIR and Monza are similar, I think the starts are as good as they can be.

    Give this latest version a test.

    EDIT Attachment removed, the new AIW is in the full download.

    PS Thanks for the feedback.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
  18. P*Funk

    P*Funk

    Messages:
    892
    Ratings:
    +333
    The best of both worlds! :p

    I'll try the new one and if the passing issues on the straight are back to what they were in the previous AIW, that is to say AI will pass, I'd probably be very satisfied.
     
  19. Gringo

    Gringo
    Premium

    Messages:
    702
    Ratings:
    +363
    As mentioned I don't think the AIW itself is the cause or the solution to this behavior.

    I have decided to go final with this latest version. I have done a bit of fine tuning to the fast line in a few corners, tweaked the corridor and cut track, and reduced the groove width a bit to help with the "AI rudeness".

    The overall AI pace is improved quite a lot, about 1 second (I guess) compared to the old AIW, sector one is at least .5 sec faster (using CART)... and IMO the way the AI drive the circuit feels a bit better. However with the speed brings a bit more behavior issues, the chicane is much better but the AI still trip over each other unfortunately during the starts.

    I plan to adjust the track physics at the chicane, the marble density is quite heavy and takes a bit too much area away from the groove. This will help the AI go 2 wide thru the chicane without as much drama as we get now.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. PieterN

    PieterN
    Premium

    Messages:
    410
    Ratings:
    +92
    Thanks Gregory for improving the racing on this great track !
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1