Porsche 911 - How is it meant to be set up and driven?

Hi all,

I've been driving various GT3 cars in Assetto Corsa but I'm not sure how the 911 is meant to be set up and driven. I usually prefer mid engine cars like the Ferrari, Lamborghini and Audi. I wouldn't say I'm slow in the 911 but I feel if I understood the proper way to set it up and drive it, it would have more potential perhaps. At the moment, I'm driving it like I drive the other 3 but I'm curious to know what are its tricks and secrets to unlock more of its potential. Thanks.
 
@dud I think it's the GT3 R 2016, but even if setups doesnt match the spirit could be the same for the cup i guess ?
They're completely different car.

The Cup is a rear engine car with a straight wing design, limited suspension, more like street.

The GT3 R 2016 is a rear engine*"correction" with true race car suspension & spoiler curved upward(different wing functionality).

2 completely different cars.
 
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@dud I think it's the GT3 R 2016, but even if setups doesnt match the spirit could be the same for the cup i guess ?

I'm just a bit concerned about the aero. The massive fender venting that the R has, both front and rear, will make the setup tuning atypical wrt speed at which you start maneuvering. The Cup on the other hand does not have the full setup of suspension adjustments and I think no front wing control.

ETA: just checked, there also is a comparability problem with the ride height. The lowest you can set the cup is still a lot higher than the R's default.
 
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ETA: just checked, there also is a comparability problem with the ride height. The lowest you can set the cup is still a lot higher than the R's default.

Of course, the spring rate are very soft (2.7Hz in car engineer app if I remember right), and while trying the cup back when it was just released a friend told me not to set the front ride height too low cause it was not that good for the car in the end.

I was told, that on rear engined cars, increase the slow bump on the front and increase the slow rebound on the rear. The idea is, that this will reduce weight transfer on lift off and therefore reduce lift off oversteer.

I think you mean decrease the slow rebound on the rear, cause if you increase it, the damper will have more resistance in rebound phase, and I think you want to opposite result (the rebound extend more freely).
 
I think you mean decrease the slow rebound on the rear, cause if you increase it, the damper will have more resistance in rebound phase, and I think you want to opposite result (the rebound extend more freely).
No its exactly like you said: keeping the rear down!
So when you brake or lift the throttle, the car will stay in position and don't dip down with the front :)
 
Ok right, but if set to stiff you can lose contact ? (like very low load on rear tires, or even 0 like a stoppie)

maxresdefault.jpg

I know I could have choosen a better resolution, but this one was very spectacular !

Anyway, it's always cool to talk and share :) there is always something new to learn ! :D
 
Whether the car body is down or not doesn't matter. What matters is the force pressing down the wheel. In this specific case the rear wheels.

So the weight is shifting to the front when braking. There is nothing you can do about this that does not decrease deceleration. What position the body is in is not primarily concerned with rear tire contact except:
  • If you allow the body to tilt forward you need faster spring expansion in the rear. Theoretically that still wouldn't matter, except that you only have limited amounts of maximum spring expansion rate.
  • A change in suspension height also means a change in camber. Since the 911 has a simple struct in front and a multi-link suspension in the rear [1] that can get quite complicated. Camber adjustment with the car at rest doesn't matter much, it would be more useful to look at camber under heavy breaking.
So the weight shifts to the front, tilting the body to a certain amount, and what you want is game the various subsystems in the suspension to keep pressure up on the rear wheels:
  • You want fast expansion of the dampers in the rear so that the wheel is kept on the road. Ideally the range and speed of expansion would be so big that you could ignore all the other stuff - but it is not.
  • If all of this is happening while the car is already being turned in you want a stiff anti-roll bar in the rear so that the inner rear wheel can help more.
  • You want slow compression of the front dampers to keep the body upright if, and only if, this actually helps due to running out of rear expansion.

The reason why you can't just dial it in with maximum fast expansion in the rear and minimum compression in the front is that there are drawbacks. Imagine you hit a curb. The slow compression in the front will make the car jump very hard. Later, when the rear wheel is past the highest point of the curb it will instantly expand its suspension, while the wheel is in the air. After your flying lesson the car lands (hopefully[2]), with the front being kinda neutralish expanded and the rear expanded a lot, only wheel on the side that hit the curb. Now the body tilts heavily away from the curb, which is usually the opposite of what you want, not to mention you induced impulse away from the curb. So if you can get away with it don't slow down compression of the front too much in an attempt to keep the body upright. First adjust the rear rates and only then check whether messing with the front is still needed and if so has a large benefit to make good for the general disadvantages of stiff suspensions.

An upright body under breaking means a flying body off a curb.

[1] the Boxster/Cayman for example has simple struts on all wheels, which is why the rear wheels look so funny on photos of fast cornering. Most other higher end modern sportcars have multi-link all around which reduces the complexity of camber changes on suspension compression. (ETA: of course the multi-link suspension means more unsprung mass, which makes all the fancy suspension mechanics less effective)

[2] this gets more complicated if you take different aero into account. If the car does not have a rear wing, but relies heavily on a rear diffuser you really don't want to fly. The diffuser instantly becomes useless on lift. This just isn't worth it except maybe for single hot laps.
 
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We need to hire some animation creator to make all these awesome simulation thoughts in our heads visible for everyone (and actually getting the same images :p).

Nice description of what happens! And matches absolutely my experience in the mclaren 650s gt3 for example. I like the basic behavior of that car but I always end up with stiff dampers. Not as fast and a bit jumpy on kerbs but way easier to control overall.

Just to mention it: I didn't want to say that someone should Max out the rear rebounds and front bumps. More like "lift off oversteer: give the rear one click, then another click, then the front one too" :)

Dampers are the most difficult to me to set up. But the lost effective (with arbs) to make a car easier to control if you're new to it.
 
We need to hire some animation creator to make all these awesome simulation thoughts in our heads visible for everyone (and actually getting the same images :p).

First we need a gaggle of guys with cheap 3D scanners and send them into wheel shops to scan the suspensions so that we have all the lengths and pivot points :D
 
One good trick in a rear engined car is to never fully let off the accelerator. Even under braking keep just a dab of throttle on, helps to minimize the sudden forward weight transfer which can cause the rear to come around.
You sir, win the trophy for today.
As a young VW/Porsche/Audi tech fresh out of school, I learned that lesson the hard way.
It was my first proper spin in a customer car...a 930 Turbo.
Fortunately, I missed everything...I should have gone straight to the store and bought a lottery ticket.
Never, ever lift off on corner entry with a rear-engined Carrera-based car.
Gentle inputs with steering, while modulating throttle is the ticket.
 
@PhilS13 I attached a baseline setup with my post, and i'm fine with it, but i tried to stiff front and front spring rate, and i got the same result, at max speed the front ride height is under 40mm, and I have set the front splitter to 0 so i presume the downforce is not that big.
So my question is this one: how ? and if you know why, could be nice :D
 
@PhilS13 I attached a baseline setup with my post, and i'm fine with it, but i tried to stiff front and front spring rate, and i got the same result, at max speed the front ride height is under 40mm, and I have set the front splitter to 0 so i presume the downforce is not that big.
So my question is this one: how ? and if you know why, could be nice :D

On your set I'm getting 39 mm at 250kph. If I switch to 140 N/mm instead of your 100 N/mm and bring static ride height back to where it was on your set then the front goes up to 43 mm at 250 kph. 4 mm higher, all normal.

If the question was : how can the car end up 40mm/60mm at speed when it sits at 60mm/70mm in the pits then yes there is something wrong in that but it's only in how the "ride height" readout is calculated while in the pits. Basically the ride height calculation shown in the pits is dumb, it's a gross approximation which iirc uses total mass and cg location only, completely ignoring sprung vs unsprung mass, tyre deflection, fuel tank location, bumpstops, packers and maybe other important things.

Do this: At some point during your telemetry recording, go slower than 7kph. AC will then switch to low speed physics and you will see ride height jump suddenly to the dumb calculation and back when you get above 7kph. If you use those "static" heights at 7+ kph as a starting point then the ones at high speed will make sense in terms of how much the front squats vs the rear.

TLDR : forget the pits ride heights, they almost mean nothing. Their only use is as a reference to compare setups on the same car.
 
On your set I'm getting 39 mm at 250kph. If I switch to 140 N/mm instead of your 100 N/mm and bring static ride height back to where it was on your set then the front goes up to 43 mm at 250 kph. 4 mm higher, all normal.

If the question was : how can the car end up 40mm/60mm at speed when it sits at 60mm/70mm in the pits then yes there is something wrong in that but it's only in how the "ride height" readout is calculated while in the pits. Basically the ride height calculation shown in the pits is dumb, it's a gross approximation which iirc uses total mass and cg location only, completely ignoring sprung vs unsprung mass, tyre deflection, fuel tank location, bumpstops, packers and maybe other important things.

Do this: At some point during your telemetry recording, go slower than 7kph. AC will then switch to low speed physics and you will see ride height jump suddenly to the dumb calculation and back when you get above 7kph. If you use those "static" heights at 7+ kph as a starting point then the ones at high speed will make sense in terms of how much the front squats vs the rear.

TLDR : forget the pits ride heights, they almost mean nothing. Their only use is as a reference to compare setups on the same car.
Not to disagree with everything you wrote, but I disagree with everything you wrote. Ride heights in the pits are fine (at least for the cars I've done, they're exactly as they should be) and include all of the effects you mentioned... I haven't really looked at Kunos cars, but like I said, the displayed ride height match calculations exactly for every car I've worked on.

Deflection is one of the things that has no reason to change with low speed physics...the reason low speed physics exist is for the tires (so slip ratios don't go to infinity and other issues like that). The only reason you'd see a difference is because of the artificial damping in the low speed physics (and those physics, according to every post by Stefano on the subject, trigger at 3 or 4 kph, not 7).
 
Not to disagree with everything you wrote, but I disagree with everything you wrote. Ride heights in the pits are fine (at least for the cars I've done, they're exactly as they should be) and include all of the effects you mentioned... I haven't really looked at Kunos cars, but like I said, the displayed ride height match calculations exactly for every car I've worked on.

Deflection is one of the things that has no reason to change with low speed physics...the reason low speed physics exist is for the tires (so slip ratios don't go to infinity and other issues like that). The only reason you'd see a difference is because of the artificial damping in the low speed physics (and those physics, according to every post by Stefano on the subject, trigger at 3 or 4 kph, not 7).
Why not actually try in game ? Would have taken less time than to post this.

The real number is 7.2 kph. 2.0 m/s. Pretty lucky you have been on your cars but the pits ride heights are wrong and things switch there.
 

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