[Poll] Car selection for an upcoming sports car league

Dennis

RedShift Racing
Before you vote, please consider:
  • Every LMP driver will need to purchase URD EGT
  • No performance/balance changes by us; EGTs will stay the way they are, as provided by Ales
Fairly soon RD will hold its first Virtual Sports Car Championchip, in the spirit of TUSCC. It will consist of four 4 - 6 hour long races, and allow for driver swaps.

For this, we would like to have your input on the car selection. Do you prefer different cars per class, or perfect balance? And are paid cars OK, even if you race in a different class?

Please note that this league is not intended to be a successor or replacement of the VWEC/RDLMS, and will run as a completely separate entity.

More details will be released in the near future.
 
Yes, but nobody wants to have a disadvantage, if ABS is enabled and you turn it off you have a disadvantage.

In club races: it's a disadvantage, you are willing to take or not. Club races are for fun, league practice or just explore the sim. :cool:

By the way I checked the Tudor USCC rules and they allow TC in the Prototype class, but it is not allowed in Prototype Challange, GT Le Mans and GTD

Indeed we are talking about a league here. So it will be up to the league organizer.
 
In club races: it's a disadvantage, you are willing to take or not. Club races are for fun, league practice or just explore the sim. :cool:



Indeed we are talking about a league here. So it will be up to the league organizer.
I didn't want to say I have a problem, that it is available in club races, because there I don't care :D
I would be fine with any TC if it is off, low, medium or high as long as ABS stays away ;)

I think with no TC you drive away newer drivers and it doesn't give you an unfair advantage.
 
Mt personal feedback on the URD mod.
@Dennis Coufal
@Frederic Schornstein
@Gijs van Elderen
@Daiman Patel

In the spirit of exploration I want to report that Ive now driven the URD Corvette and the "Darche".
As Gijs says above club races are for fun and learning about the sim. I do however have to report that I have serious reservations about the URD mods suitability/standard for league races.

It is indeed a pretty looking mod with a nice cockpit and well done to URD for having the skill and courage to enter the payware area. I hope they do well and I have paid my 9.90 euro. But....
My concerns are:
Tyre wear. as I have written above following my testing I believe that the tyre wear is so low as to inhibit strategic choice. IE Full tank of fuel and drive flat out till it's empty is the only strategy. Tyre management is denuded significantly if not totally.
Physics: I don't want to be negative but the Darche (911) suffers hugely from too much rear grip. The only way to lose the car is understeer. If you can point the nose where you want to go the rear will follow. The rear end is glued to the road and feels only very slightly better than the Apex Modding 911 and IMO is worse thean the BES GTE mod. The BES 1.0 mod we used for Bathurst is far superior.
I did 20 laps and lap after lap I increased the softness/grip at the front and reduced rear grip till everything was maxed (Springs/ARB/Shocks) stilol I could only just provoke a rear end slide with drastic moves. And that was with NO ABS or TCS.
Feel: This bit is of course very subjective there is just very little going on in the lap with the car, it feels dead/lifeless. It is just flat on the throttle with no risk of over-steer from apex to braking point, get the fronts to hook up and flatten it again.
Sanity check: I was wondering if I was being too hard on it so loaded the the BES 1.0 car and did some laps immediately afterwards. I was smiling within two corners. It was a car. Made me work very accurately everywhere but had so much more feel that it made it fine. I was 1.0 sec faster but man I had to drive. I loved it.
Please try what I did and drive them back to back. Tell me where I'm wrong.For me the URD is easier than hotlapping in Time trial mode in Codies F1. Too easy, too predictable, too consistent.

Conclusion:
The poll shows that lots of people seem to like the URD mod. What am I missing here? Is it better? or do we vote because we have paid for it? Why is it so popular?
My concern is really that some big things RF2 does better than RF1 is a)Tyre Model, b)Real road and c)weather. If we take away tyres it seems regressive. I'm a passionate RD member and try to put a lot into Leagues/Club events so I'm worried that we might pick a dud.
Please don't construe this as rant I just wanted my say and I know its just my view. Enlighten me please.
Respectfully (yes I paid for it too).
David
 
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Mt personal feedback on the URD mod.
@Dennis Coufal
@Frederic Schornstein
@Gijs van Elderen
@Daiman Patel

In the spirit of exploration I want to report that Ive now driven the URD Corvette and the "Darche".
As Gijs says above club races are for fun and learning about the sim. I do however have to report that I have serious reservations about the URD mods suitability/standard for league races.

It is indeed a pretty looking mod with a nice cockpit and well done to URD for having the skill and courage to enter the payware area. I hope they do well and I have paid my 9.90 euro. But....
My concerns are:
Tyre wear. as I have written above following my testing I believe that the tyre wear is so low as to inhibit strategic choice. IE Full tank of fuel and drive flat out till it's empty is the only strategy. Tyre management is denuded significantly if not totally.
Physics: I don't want to be negative but the Darche (911) suffers hugely from too much rear grip. The only way to lose the car is understeer. If you can point the nose where you want to go the rear will follow. The rear end is glued to the road and feels only very slightly better than the Apex Modding 911 and IMO is worse thean the BES GTE mod. The BES 1.0 mod we used for Bathurst is far superior.
I did 20 laps and lap after lap I increased the softness/grip at the front and reduced rear grip till everything was maxed (Springs/ARB/Shocks) stilol I could only just provoke a rear end slide with drastic moves. And that was with NO ABS or TCS.
Feel: This bit is of course very subjective there is just very little going on in the lap with the car, it feels dead/lifeless. It is just flat on the throttle with no risk of over-steer from apex to braking point, get the fronts to hook up and flatten it again.
Sanity check: I was wondering if I was being too hard on it so loaded the the BES 1.0 car and did some laps immediately afterwards. I was smiling within two corners. It was a car. Made me work very accurately everywhere but had so much more feel that it made it fine. I was 1.0 sec faster but man I had to drive. I loved it.
Please try what I did and drive them back to back. Tell me where I'm wrong.For me the URD is easier than hotlapping in Time trial mode in Codies F1. Too easy, too predictable, too consistent.

Conclusion:
The poll shows that lots of people seem to like the URD mod. What am I missing here? Is it better? or do we vote because we have paid for it? Why is it so popular?
My concern is really that some big things RF2 does better than RF1 is a)Tyre Model, b)Real road and c)weather. If we take away tyres it seems regressive. I'm a passionate RD member and try to put a lot into Leagues/Club events so I'm worried that we might pick a dud.
Please don't construe this as rant I just wanted my say and I know its just my view. Enlighten me please.
Respectfully (yes I paid for it too).
David


I have to dissagree David with you here.

My best lap time on Mid Ohio during a test session with full fuel and fresh tires is 1.17.6xx without hunting best times. If you are able to keep this over 46 laps, which is about a ful fuel tank, than you are right. If not, than not. Hell, it isn't even possible to keep it in the 18's.

Doing 20 laps few setups adjustments between is not a propper test for these cars. It is basically the same as you see often people saying who tried the ISI corvette "oh dear the car is sliding all over the place, no grip at all, crap car" The thing is those tires punish you at the end of the stint if you overdrive them at the beginning. The last 15 laps or 20 in Mid Ohios case for example.
The tires punish you very well if you don't take care about them. At a certain point they just don't come back anymore. If they overheat to often you are more or less done. They just don't come back and you loose on tracks like Mid Ohio about 2 secs a lap or even more. And that is without flatspoting or extreme sliding all over the place, just pushing. Of course on tracks like Sebring it a lot easier to manage them.
But to say there is no strategy possible is way over the top or that driving has no influence. You are as well free to double stint the endurance tires if you can keep up the pace.

But honestly, expecting those cars to behave like the ISI 2009 Vette is just not right.
The bodywork is wider, the wheel base is wider, the tires are wider, the aero is better.
All those things lead to a more stable car generally. It definitly is not possible to go a full stint flat out in my case, no chance. There is a lot of setup work to do for every track to manage the tires properly. At Bahrain for example you have those last two uphill turns.
If you don't setup the car accordingly you will loose there time after ten laps bigtimes if you go flat out and then you have the next right hander which gives your left front the last thrill. This will keep on going in the slow chicane where you can lock up and so on and so on.

That said there are of course things with this mod which are no perfect. The URD mod would benefit of chasis flex big times as it is not implemented yet. That is probably one of the reasons why the cars are that stiff and of course the suspension base setups.
The cars tend to bounce of in a weird way, just like the AC cars, as it is something wrong with the suspension base setup. To a certain degree you can dial it out with setup work but it is still noticable on some corners here an there.
The last thing, they need more drag added to get about a 1 slower over a lap which also has an impact on the driving.

Seriously now one should take those cars for what they are and not what ones wish them to be. They are not GT2 cars from 2009, They are GTE cars form 2013 and they seem to replicate those cars fairly well if you ask me. Go ahead and compare an F! car from 2009 and 2013, I guess you wouldn't expect them to perform the same way.

As for the rain aspect, there is no possible rain driving for now on a noraml RR rate.
As soon your tires get to running temps you are aquaplaning all over the place.
So rain racing currently not possible at all.


EDIT: Having wider tires also means you have your peak performance longer but you need a bit longer to get there BUT in our case the tires are already preheated so this is obsolete.

example by this nice lady here :D

 
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@Miroslav Davidovic
Thanks for your considered reply.

You are correct that I did not try to do a full tank of fuel stint on a normal track but simply extrapolated the impact on the wear figures acheived at Nazareth. However the lap times of the URD car had not significantly eroded after 35 laps and the iSI did after 20 laps.

Following that I did my setup work at Bahrain. It did mean I had driven them against two logical comparators in the iSI Corvette and the BES 1.0 911. Both of which I preferred over the URD cars.
Its also that most times when I do setup in a good car its to get it to grip better and be easier to drive, in the URD cars they were so easy and grippy out of the box. The Darche was just plain wrong I'm afraid.
I accept what you say regarding the race impact of wear over a full stint.
But for me the cars are way too easy and when I add the 80% better tyre life, and the lack of feel and feedback it takes away a lot for me. So I just plain dont like it I'm afraid.
 
I have to dissagree David with you here.

My best lap time on Mid Ohio during a test session with full fuel and fresh tires is 1.17.6xx without hunting best times. If you are able to keep this over 46 laps, which is about a ful fuel tank, than you are right. If not, than not. Hell, it isn't even possible to keep it in the 18's.

Doing 20 laps few setups adjustments between is not a propper test for these cars. It is basically the same as you see often people saying who tried the ISI corvette "oh dear the car is sliding all over the place, no grip at all, crap car" The thing is those tires punish you at the end of the stint if you overdrive them at the beginning. The last 15 laps or 20 in Mid Ohios case for example.
The tires punish you very well if you don't take care about them. At a certain point they just don't come back anymore. If they overheat to often you are more or less done. They just don't come back and you loose on tracks like Mid Ohio about 2 secs a lap or even more. And that is without flatspoting or extreme sliding all over the place, just pushing. Of course on tracks like Sebring it a lot easier to manage them.
But to say there is no strategy possible is way over the top or that driving has no influence. You are as well free to double stint the endurance tires if you can keep up the pace.

But honestly, expecting those cars to behave like the ISI 2009 Vette is just not right.
The bodywork is wider, the wheel base is wider, the tires are wider, the aero is better.
All those things lead to a more stable car generally. It definitly is not possible to go a full stint flat out in my case, no chance. There is a lot of setup work to do for every track to manage the tires properly. At Bahrain for example you have those last two uphill turns.
If you don't setup the car accordingly you will loose there time after ten laps bigtimes if you go flat out and then you have the next right hander which gives your left front the last thrill. This will keep on going in the slow chicane where you can lock up and so on and so on.

That said there are of course things with this mod which are no perfect. The URD mod would benefit of chasis flex big times as it is not implemented yet. That is probably one of the reasons why the cars are that stiff and of course the suspension base setups.
The cars tend to bounce of in a weird way, just like the AC cars, as it is something wrong with the suspension base setup. To a certain degree you can dial it out with setup work but it is still noticable on some corners here an there.
The last thing, they need more drag added to get about a 1 slower over a lap which also has an impact on the driving.

Seriously now one should take those cars for what they are and not what ones wish them to be. They are not GT2 cars from 2009, They are GTE cars form 2013 and they seem to replicate those cars fairly well if you ask me. Go ahead and compare an F! car from 2009 and 2013, I guess you wouldn't expect them to perform the same way.

As for the rain aspect, there is no possible rain driving for now on a noraml RR rate.
As soon your tires get to running temps you are aquaplaning all over the place.
So rain racing currently not possible at all.


EDIT: Having wider tires also means you have your peak performance longer but you need a bit longer to get there BUT in our case the tires are already preheated so this is obsolete.

example by this nice lady here :D

I think it would be interesting to go to the same tyre wear rate as we have on the ISI car. I think that would change a lot.
Of course with the URD cars you loose laptime during the stint, but at least I don't have to really adapt during a stint. It is a diffrent type of racing.
With the ISI Corvette you may have 2 or 3 fast laps at the start of the stint and then you have to settle down a bit and pace yourself. With the URD cars you can be more aggressive for a longer period of time.
One thing I personally find a bit annoying is the braking. For example T9 and T10 at Bahrain are so easy in the URD cars and that is a hell of a corner. The best drivers in the world struggle there, but in the URD cars I can master it in 3 Laps and I am for sure not the best driver in the world :D Most of the time you can slam the brake and brake very deep into the corner without risking a lock up.
It would be really interesting to get things like chasy flex. For me they just feel a bit flat and I don't get as much feedback from them as from other cars.

I don't think they are totally wrong, but rather small adjustments could help them a lot to get more alive.
 
@Miroslav Davidovic
Thanks for your considered reply.

You are correct that I did not try to do a full tank of fuel stint on a normal track but simply extrapolated the impact on the wear figures acheived at Nazareth. However the lap times of the URD car had not significantly eroded after 35 laps and the iSI did after 20 laps.

Following that I did my setup work at Bahrain. It did mean I had driven them against two logical comparators in the iSI Corvette and the BES 1.0 911. Both of which I preferred over the URD cars.
Its also that most times when I do setup in a good car its to get it to grip better and be easier to drive, in the URD cars they were so easy and grippy out of the box. The Darche was just plain wrong I'm afraid.
I accept what you say regarding the race impact of wear over a full stint.
But for me the cars are way too easy and when I add the 80% better tyre life, and the lack of feel and feedback it takes away a lot for me. So I just plain dont like it I'm afraid.

Sure man, you are free to like or not like what ever you want and I am not going to tell you what you should like lol. Just to be clear there.

But thing is you have ignored basically everything what I have said for what ever reason.
Just go and try the things I suggested maybe there is a chance you'll discover something.
 
I think it would be interesting to go to the same tyre wear rate as we have on the ISI car. I think that would change a lot.
Of course with the URD cars you loose laptime during the stint, but at least I don't have to really adapt during a stint. It is a diffrent type of racing.
With the ISI Corvette you may have 2 or 3 fast laps at the start of the stint and then you have to settle down a bit and pace yourself. With the URD cars you can be more aggressive for a longer period of time.
One thing I personally find a bit annoying is the braking. For example T9 and T10 at Bahrain are so easy in the URD cars and that is a hell of a corner. The best drivers in the world struggle there, but in the URD cars I can master it in 3 Laps and I am for sure not the best driver in the world :D Most of the time you can slam the brake and brake very deep into the corner without risking a lock up.
It would be really interesting to get things like chasy flex. For me they just feel a bit flat and I don't get as much feedback from them as from other cars.

I don't think they are totally wrong, but rather small adjustments could help them a lot to get more alive.

Look, with the ISI corvette and so on.................

Why don't you compare it to the Panoz,? It would be the same comparisson. Just makes no sense.
Not sure that is so easy where you claim it to be at all.

The cars need some final adjustments that is for sure and chasis flex but it ain't that way you guys try it to look like either. Pretty sure there.

I aswell could claim turn 9 and 10 are easy in the ISI F1 car too, now go ahead and prove me wrong in that. You can't , it's just a subjective "claim"
 
Look, with the ISI corvette and so on.................

Why don't you compare it to the Panoz,? It would be the same comparisson. Just makes no sense.
Not sure that is so easy where you claim it to be at all.

The cars need some final adjustments that is for sure and chasis flex but it ain't that way you guys try it to look like either. Pretty sure there.

I aswell could claim turn 9 and 10 are easy in the ISI F1 car too, now go ahead and prove me wrong in that. You can't , it's just a subjective "claim"
I am just describing my feeling and I just looked at the physics file, which explained a lot to me even with my reduced modding knowledge.
You gain very little drag by raising the wings and you don't get any aero dropoff, if you go sideways. With the Lola the same value is 0 for the diffuser, which makes it unrealisticly difficult over bumps and out of slow corners.
With the EGT wings it is the opposite you will always get the full downforce and that T9 and T10 is not a claim by me..

As I said I don't think they are wrong in general, but as I just saw there are values in them, that don't make a lot of sense (at least to me).

At the end of the day we will have enough drivers to run two GT cars, but you seriously can't deny, that they are not 100% exploiting all of the physics available.
They are much better than every other GT car Mod out there, but they aren't perfect either.

Look at 2:20 I nearly matched Martin Brundles words there :roflmao:

 
@Miroslav Davidovic
@Frederic Schornstein
at least it got us all talking.

Miroslav I didnt ignore you points its just that my testing and the numbers it produced are objective regarding tyre wear and dont really lie. It won't however simulate fully your experience with the mod so I wont argue with you on it but I cant really fully agree either.

My testing and views are one thing but I guess a much better test is the 2 hours of racing we have on Saturday!
Once thats dones some drivers will have raced in this and other mods by then and we can talk some more.
 
This is paraphrased from someone that has driven 911 gt3 spec cars(recent and older) a lot and recently got to drive an older endurance spec 911 (996 rsr) around my local track eastern creek. He said that a gt3 has a decent amount of aero but it doesn't work all of the time, you lose it in slower corners but the mechanical grip makes up for it. A gt3 has lots of grip but will give little warning and will let go very quickly. The endurance spec car has a lot more aero obviously but it also has aero that works a lot better, aero that works at lower speeds than the gt3 spec cars. That with the extra grip they have they feel nowhere near as heavy as they actually are and almost have grip all the time. They can be easily compared to driving a radical even with the extra weight. It has some similar characteristics to the gt3, but basically they are very different cars. With the way the under-tray is designed on the endurance if you lift mid corner you rapidly lose turn in and understeer quite badly. This is all i got unfortunately.

For me the endurance (urd) should handle and be as predictable/stable/fast as how he describes it. GTE cars are designed to be faster etc than gt3 spec ones so to me it makes sense for them to be kind of the way they are. I am not entirely sold on the URDs but they are a big step in the right direction for a good LMGTE based set of cars and BES1.0 is good for the GT3 spec cars. If this is going to be like USCC than URDs should be used. Just like they should be used in a WEC race as this is what is used in the real series. Well my opinion anyways.
 
This is paraphrased from someone that has driven 911 gt3 spec cars(recent and older) a lot and recently got to drive an older endurance spec 911 (996 rsr) around my local track eastern creek. He said that a gt3 has a decent amount of aero but it doesn't work all of the time, you lose it in slower corners but the mechanical grip makes up for it. A gt3 has lots of grip but will give little warning and will let go very quickly. The endurance spec car has a lot more aero obviously but it also has aero that works a lot better, aero that works at lower speeds than the gt3 spec cars. That with the extra grip they have they feel nowhere near as heavy as they actually are and almost have grip all the time. They can be easily compared to driving a radical even with the extra weight. It has some similar characteristics to the gt3, but basically they are very different cars. With the way the under-tray is designed on the endurance if you lift mid corner you rapidly lose turn in and understeer quite badly. This is all i got unfortunately.

For me the endurance (urd) should handle and be as predictable/stable/fast as how he describes it. GTE cars are designed to be faster etc than gt3 spec ones so to me it makes sense for them to be kind of the way they are. I am not entirely sold on the URDs but they are a big step in the right direction for a good LMGTE based set of cars and BES1.0 is good for the GT3 spec cars. If this is going to be like USCC than URDs should be used. Just like they should be used in a WEC race as this is what is used in the real series. Well my opinion anyways.
That's amazing as in all other 911s if you lift mid corner you get massive lift off oversteer as the engine/gearbox continue on the inertial journey to where the were last headed.
Driving a 911 quickly was always initial turn in with fronts loaded then load the rears and whatever you do keep them loaded.

Co incidentally I too have driven a 911 GT3 around Eastern Creek but not an RSR (maybe one day)
 
That's amazing as in all other 911s if you lift mid corner you get massive lift off oversteer as the engine/gearbox continue on the inertial journey to where the were last headed.
Driving a 911 quickly was always initial turn in with fronts loaded then load the rears and whatever you do keep them loaded.

Co incidentally I too have driven a 911 GT3 around Eastern Creek but not an RSR (maybe one day)
Basically the front lifts and loses its suction to the road as the under-tray loses its effect. With the car being reliant on this for front grip you pretty much wash out. You also have to take into account that it could have been down to the way it was setup.

Edit: but otherwise i could understand the feeling of extra grip but it should be said that even with the extra grip it would still move around a lot. Something that the URD cars need a bit of work on, maybe this might come with the chassis flex implementation who knows.
 
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Ok thanks for the feedback guys :thumbsup:

Result:
75% URD EGT + single LMP
25% Single GT + single LMP (free cars)
Total votes: 70

I think the result is quite clear and so we will run LMP + EGT.

Since there was also some interest in a single car GT class, we will give you the option to sign up for a GT Cup class with the ISI GT2 Corvette. However there must be a minimum number of teams willing to sign-up in this class for it to be included.

The number of cars in each class will be limited, we will probably go by:
  • 12 LMP
  • 20 EGT
  • 8 GT Cup
Originally we planned to start the first event in September, but since the latest build introduced several issues we will postpone the league until an issue-less WEC club event has been run in a newer build.
 
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