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Please, show some respect

Discussion in 'F1 2012 - The Game' started by Kristian Nenov, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. Hello.

    I've been planning to make this thread from a long, long time but I haven't had time so as we're very close to F1 2012 release I decided to go for it.

    Now, I've seen a lot, lot, LOT of complains about F1 2010 and F1 2011. Especially when F1 2011 was released, everyone was saying how F1 2010 was better. Well, it wasn't. People who are 'afraid' of changes say that. People who want the new one but they still don't want to switch to it. Anyways, that's not what I made this thread for.

    CM made F1 2010 for less than an year. The game was awesome when you think that it's made for just a few months. F1 2011 had more time for developing considering that the game was there and they needed just to improve it. Anyways, when F1 2010 was released everyone was saying how rFactor is better how bla bla bla... Well, before you start crying about damaging for example, please think from the other point of view too. CM have a lot limitations. ESPECIALLY about damage. They have a contract with FIA. Anyone who doesn't know what FIA is - google it. Anyways, CM have a lot limitations around this contract. They can't make the game without it, but the game will suffer at some points with it. The choice is obvious. They can't make better damage. (which seems to be the main problem to all of you). They won't, not because they can't make better damage modelling. That's a piece of cake for them. They'll make it in 1 week time, if they get the chance. They're just not allowed. This contract with FIA gives them a lot more limitations of course, so if it's not a bug, you shouldn't blame CM for it!

    Now, the topic with the bugs. Back in F1 2010, there weren't many bugs. The game was fine. But now in F1 2011, with the new improvements, which weren't just a few for sure, we had a lot of bugs. If you're an offline player - you get out of sight bug. You get invisible walls bug. If you're an online player, you get messed up timings, you get fake cars and such stuff. Sure, CM could've fixed this in a patch. It'd be a big patch, but they could. But again, it comes to the contract with FIA and the money. Now, FIA actually doesn't have to do with bugs. But CM have to pay FIA so they can use all the names and everything. I don't know how much they pay them, but believe me, it's not a few dollars. They also pay a lot more money for the developing of the game. These things aren't cheap. They're millions. So, they fixed a few of the bugs, but they left most of them for the new game, just because it would cost them way too much to release a patch that is for free. Firstly, they'd need around 1 month hard work to fix all of these bugs, and more importantly, they'd need a lot, lot of money. So they left it for F1 2012 which actually may have been their only choice.

    Now, guys, look what they've done just for 2 years time. They made an incredible game. Everyone here has very good memories from playing this game. It's enjoyable. It's a really good game. Especially 2011! You know that. Just, please, if you see a bug, report it. Not moan and cry all day - all night about it. OK, it's annoying. I know it is. I had to experiment maybe a month till I found the fix for the Out Of Sight bug. And it wasn't a 100% fix. It was just kinda lower it to the in sight lap times. Some things need a lot coding to do to be flawless.

    All I'm trying to say is, give CM some credit. They made a phenomenal job for no time and you haven't showed much appreciation. You play the game and like it and at the same time you cry about how CM are a piece of crap and they didn't do anything. Well, it doesn't work this way. Reporting bugs is the way. Crying 24/7 won't change a thing. Do you think CM people are spying over here and watching if you start crying about something? They're not. They simply aren't.

    Thank you for reading it, it became a lot longer than I planned it to be, but well... Never mind. Thanks for your attention! :)
    • Like Like x 6
  2. I agree with you but the contract is with FOM not with FIA :)
  3. Valid opinion. When I stop and think about how much fun ive had playing 2010/11, I have to say they have been some of the most enjoyable gaming moments ive ever had. If it wasnt for these 'gateway' driving games I would never have got into sim racing.

    However, regardless of contractual limitations, with 2011 there were certain bugs which to me, (as a software test analyst of 12 years experience) simply cannot be vindicated. They show a total lack of fundamental testing (costing not a lot of money), and in turn, the way CM reacted to perfectly resonable initial bug reports is also pretty unforgivable and explains why people were getting all bent out of shape, although I never liked how aggressive people got. CM will know that bug fixing costs less the earlier its found, so such basic 'new' bugs in the 2nd evolution of a game is really bad development and definitely indicates a total lack of testing. Some of these things were reported within hours of release.

    The big hitters for me were (iirc):

    Save game corruption in v1 and v1.01
    11/11 'on rails' bug in v1 fixed in 1.01
    Tyre wear bug introduced 1.01

    In any line of business, you can put out an impressive product, but if its fundamentally flawed and those flaws are ignored and in some cases made worse, you probably wouldnt buy it/another one again, and you might even complain - games are no different, except in the digital world, it isnt as hard or expensive to fix mistakes, and if you handle the situation correctly, you can come out of the situation with an even stronger fan base and a better reputation.

    Its called looking at the bigger picture, and evolving your product and service to your paying customers. Not dropping them and moving onto the next one, and to rub salt into the wound, using the same propaganda in the shape of screenshots and videos trying to 'wow' the same people with the same 'shiny shiny' that you did the last 2 times, and not expect them to ask questions about bugs and be sceptical about the game for what isnt being talked about and still seems a taboo subject.

    I dont know where you got your data from regarding development timespans, and I am curious how FOM contract limits the amount of damage they are allowed to employ in the game - however I will take it on face value.
    • Like Like x 5

  4. What's this tyre wear bug? o.O

    Well, a game to make is a long period of time. And as far as I know, they start working on the new game around the before season testings. So they have like half an year to make the new game. And coding isn't easy. Yes, they didn't make much tests, it's obvious. But actually, did they have enough time?

    Now, this goes for the 11/11 bug and for the few car handling bugs. Maybe around a month before F1 2011 was released, they lost their coder for the car handling(s). So, I bet we wouldn't even think about 11/11 suspension and invisible walls and such bugs if they didn't lose him.

    And yes, they did screw up with the patch. Again, lack of testing. But, for more testings, they need more people. Which means, they'll have to pay someone to test. Like, giving 10-20 more jobs with a pay so they can test would be bad (for their budget).

    About the damage limitations, they've said it a hundred times. FOM (I thought it's FIA actually) limits them. Not because of something else, but they just don't want to show much of the car. Contracts like this give a lot of limitations. We have no idea what this contract is stating. But one thing is for sure - we won't get any damage improvements over the years. At least till this contract is over. If/When they sign a new one, it may give better opportunities to CM.

    Also, about the lack of patches for this game. We were using GFWL (Games For Windows Live). Remember when was the patch ready? It was maybe over a month before it was released. It was all about waiting Microsoft pick up their lazy asses and test the goddamn patch so they can release it. It also costs CM to release a patch through GFWL. So yea, it's complicated. If they had more time - they'd make an incredible game. I'm sure. But when they have to release every year a new game - it's hard. It really is.

    Altho, what I don't like about CM is that they do tend to lie. For example, they said that the AI will be rewritten for F1 2011. Well, no such thing. We had the exact same AI with just added the use of DRS and smoother work. Nothing else changed.

    Now, for F1 2012, they have a few new people in the developers team. The main impact makes the new handling coder. If you pay more attention while playing F1 2011, you'll see that sometimes you get like tire whistle sound when you don't have to and you don't get it when you have to. They say that's because of the handling modeller. So, they seem to want to improve sounds, so we'll see if we'll get that in F1 2012. If they don't - it seems that one of the developers was pushing the game back.

    And another thing. They found out about these bugs due to lack of testings. You're right. But after they knew the bugs, they tried to fix them. They released a patch. 11/11 bug was fixed which for me was the biggest one. I didn't get any save bug in my life and I'm happy about that. Before a few days just got my first invisible wall bug, so it hasn't been that much of a problem for me. Anyways, if they fixed all of the reported bugs, which I don't think wouldn't be that much of a problem because these bugs aren't anything big in terms of coding. They could, but what would they offer us more in F1 2012? I'm pretty sure they asked theirselves the same question and decided to stay out of it so many people can buy their new game. That's something that most of the game makers do. If they're making a series of games, they are giving 100% just on the last one. That's money making tactics. Because, 99% of the people that are moaning day and night that will never buy a CM game WILL buy F1 2012. I bet most of them have even pre-ordered it.

    Anyways, with this thread, I wanted to focus on another thing. Everyone has to try and stand on their place for a little. It's not easy. It certainly isn't. People don't understand that. It is flatout work. People think that making a game is playing it and saying - we'll do that. Bam. It's done. Before they even think of playing a game, they write like 1 million lines of code. One game has millions lines of code. MILLIONS.

    Anyways, the post became way too big, so... Thanks for reading it, again. :D
  5. By tyre wear, I mean the bug where you enter the pits during a practice/quali session, drive out on the same set of tyres but it burns a new pair each time. Basically you can only run 1 set of each tyre, quit, and restart the entire session until you are happy with your setups and practice etc, so you cant realistically run a co-op or career game.

    Again I get your further points, but I still dont see how these factors should really matter to the consumer. Every company has challenges, restrictions, loss of staff - whatever. Still doesnt mean we should be grateful when our game doesnt load, or we cant 'live the life' in coop because we are fitted with fresh tyres each time we leave the pits. Its just a shame FOM couldnt be involved to say - 'hey CM, progressing through a full season without restarting and tyre strategy are a big deal to racers - FIX IT.

    I know there is a long term contract in place for future games (isnt there?) so I kinda think CM dont actually even need to try as hard this time, as next years game is assured regardless.
  6. We'll have a demo soon, but despite running a faster newly formatted 1t Samsung spinpoint, F1 2011 continues to save game crash, also, the steering was crap on my G27, I know people say otherwise, but I'm comparing it to sims.
  7. I'm not seeing anything new enough to warrant buying 2012. Jumping through hoops in the Young Drivers Test is utterly pointless to anyone who's played a fair amount of the previous games. The demo might sway me but it's unlikely.
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Graham Laing

    Graham Laing
    ...... mostly harmless Staff

    Kristian makes some valid points, but I tend to share Paul's point of view.

    I liked both F1 2010 & F1 2011, and generally I preferred F1 2011.

    Out of all the bugs in both games, F1 2011 had the 'killer bug' as far as I am concerned. Luckily I race online with friends, but single player career mode was appalling in F1 2011. Why? ..... It is because of the game save bug.

    F1 2010 had a game save bug on release, luckily it was easily fixed with a small tweak all users could do themselves. To release F1 2011 with a game save bug was not only careless, it was unforgivable, because they did not fix it in any patch. This game to most users (non league players) is essentially a single player career mode game. If you can not take part in some or all of your career, and are consistently losing your data, it's a waste of time, as saving the game is fundamental to this mode. I did many careers in F1 2010, but ONLY 9 races in F1 2011, half a season.

    If it wasn't for online play with friends, the game would have been dead to me long ago, and that's a shame.

    However, I am an optimist at heart, tempered with a healthy dose of cynicism. That is why I have pre-ordered F1 2012, and hope to see not only a better product, but also to finally see the end of the saving bug, due the ditching of GFWL and the adoption of Steam.

    I have noticed that CM have been a lot quieter with their claims this year, and so they should be. I do wish them luck, because a good quality release will benefit all of us who love F1.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    You have to earn respect mate.
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Not all of the bugs that existed in 2010 / 11 can be pinned on Codemasters. GFWL has had a pretty big history of being buggy (PC especially) on a large number of titles. I don't know the specifics of the GFWL API, but Codemasters basically had to develop certain features around it. Saved games needed to be bound to a Live account (both online and offline). The online lobby, matchmaking, and I imagine quite a bit more technical stuff behind the scenes were built on top of Live rather than independently.

    Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I think that the switch to Steam / Steamworks gives them a huge chance to redeem themselves and that F1 2012 will be a much better quality release.
  11. No respect for CM absolutely. Who cares really how many millions of code does this game have if it doesn't work as it should. If they are too lazy to do their job properly they should release license to someone else.
    • Like Like x 3
  12. If Codemasters did not have enough time, then why did they release it? Should we, "the testers", pay full retail price for a product that has not been completely smoothed out? Surely release a BETA version or something so that they cancel the need for at least one patch especially if they aren't going to test it thoroughly enough themselves.

    In my opinion, the best franchises are made through consistency, attention to detail and good relations with the customers. I believe that if CM continue to sell a product at full price that hasn't been attended to correctly and then ignores the community after release, the franchise, and more importantly customer base, will break-down.

    Perhaps this is a little over the top but I just can't understand why any firm that actually cares about its reputation would ever release a game that is so buggy and then not fix it correctly. It makes sense for them to spend the extra money on a patch as well since if they have a long-term contract with FOM, they have time to make this into a sensational series- so why not get it right first time or post-patch? This way, they would be guaranteeing their profits for the following year since everyone would be so impressed by the current one. Instead of new features, let's have flawless gameplay first.

    Hopefully, CM have developed a beautiful F1 2012 for us and there will be no need to question their lack of deliverance! :O_o:

    I'm not attacking anyone and apologise if I have disrespected CM but until they respect me (as the consumer), I'm not hugely apologetic! :)
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Its all about the cash cow. A yearly throw away game cheaply converted to PC, where unfortunately PC gamers have come to expect a certain level of testing, reliability and work on the logic that the Developer WANTS to improve it and make it better, whereas the console logic to this is waiting for next years release.

    Am I right in thinking the rFactor2 beta has now been running for about the same length of time as its taken for CM to develop and release two F1 games? (2011 and 2012)
    • Like Like x 2
  14. @Paul Lock, I 100% agree and without knowing the numbers, I doubt rFactor2 has a bigger budget than CM. Coupled with the fact that rFactor2 probably won't garner the same revenues as F1 2012, it is clear who cares more about quality and credibility! Could be wrong on this of course.

    Without getting too off topic though, I also feel that the criticism, on this forum anyway, isn't too aggressive. It starts as constructive criticism (which surely any developer appreciates?) and then goes unanswered by CM, hence the frustration. So whilst I know it is in't easy to develop a game perfectly, if that is what CM are hoping to do to make money year in, year out, I'm not going to give them sympathy until they LISTEN!

    So, in conclusion @Kristian Nenov and with no intentional disrespect, I fundamentally disagree with you on this point!
    • Like Like x 3
  15. If you've followed the responses of Codemasters closely, they've stated that they've changed the way of development for F1 2012, with the aim to prevent serious bugs. So it should be less this year.

    Since I'm not in R-factor, I cannot compare the CM F1 series to R-factor. When I first played F1 2011 I immediately enjoyed it a lot better than F1 2010 so I uninstalled that one. I'm hoping and expecting the same will happen for F1 2012.

    I've done many online races here on RD, and most were very enjoyable!

    From CM perspective I totally understand they have to create a game that will apply to a very big group: they have to earn their investments back. If they try to compete with the hardcore r-factor game, they'll be out of business.
  16. Alberto Casado

    Alberto Casado
    Premium Member

    I agree with the title of the thread, but nothing else.

    Please, (codemasters), show some respect (to customers).

    P.S. Not buying this year. Even if the game turns to be good.
    • Like Like x 1
  17. 100% Agree with you mate. Yes, there were a few bugs. But though F1 2010 and 2011 weren't a hardcore sim, but I think most of them had fun playing. The last F1 game for PC before F1 2010 was F1 Challenge 99-02. In 2003 that was the best F1 game. Remember how many F1 games EA Sports released before they came out with F1C. I still have the F1 2000 CD and when compared to F1C, F1 2000 was no where.

    I'm sure that F1 2012 will be better than both F1 2010 and 2011. I've pre-ordered the game and I'm looking forward for the demo as well.
  18. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    Well, just tried the Demo.


  19. Respect is earned. Thus none will be flung to Codemasters' side from this side ;)

    Geoff Crammond earned respect.
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Honestly, how was it? Do you have any more detail?