Physics right or wrong?

[Frederic Schornstein]

Disclaimer:
First of all please don't make that a fanboy discussion. I always try to be objective and leave my personal preferences out of the way. I am always willing to accept, if something I don't like on emotional basis, is better than what I like on emotional basis.

Ok I hope I covered that part and this won't get into a "You are a fanboy of this and that thread".

Prequal:
Like most people I eagerly awaited the release of Assetto Corsa. I read about all the licensed content, loved the screenshots and everything. I didn't drive the tech preview, because I didn't want to get a false impression, because it was all still WIP. The day AC was released on Steam I bought it.
I started really testing it after the first update were the FFB was fixed.

I do really like the game and wanted it to be good and so far my only issue are the physics. Most people praise them and they get a lot of love and I do confess, that in external videos they look great.
The car dives in on the braking, you see all the weight transfer and everything. No other sim offers that!

Example:
But as soon as I drive it, it feels just so wrong to me. Just one example: I tested the BMW Z4 GT3 at Monza. I know the track very well and usually drive GT cars, so a perfect combination for me.
Despite all the massive understeer you get everywhere in AC even with setup tweaks, I wanted to point out something you can judge on a much more objective level. So I will talk about the braking distance.

Every racer knows how hard the first braking zone in Monza is. You have a low downforce car and arrive at 260+ kph and have to break down to 60-80kph. So if you look at a lot of GT3 onboards on youtube even with cars, that do have ABS and are a bit restricted due to BOP. They all break before the 200meter board.
That said, I can brake at the 300meter (270kph) board and have the car at a total stand still at 150meters. If I brake for the corner I can brake at or after the 150 meter board.
So we already have a 25% shorter braking zone compared to a real life car with equal or less power and ABS, which I didn't use.

Test conditions:
So now people would start arguing, that I maybe run more downforce and stuff and that is the weirdest thing. I tried to figure out the "worst" braking performance. I used hard tyres and removed all the downforce from the car for this test.

I don't want to get to much into the details of the cornering behaviour and the understeer and that you can just pull on tons of lock and don't get any turn-in oversteer.

Is my opinion qualified?!:
A lot of simracers don't have a lot of reallife experience and I didn't race a GT3 car in my life, but just a quick background:

I drove Race07, rFactor1 and now rFactor2 and I am a pretty good driver in rF2 especially in rear wheel drive touring or GT cars. Even in the new Civic I was racing for wins after 30mins on an unkonw track, so I can quickly adapt to new cars and tracks etc.

In my free time I did some kart races with friends and even on an unkown track with for me unkonw more powerful karts than the average rental karts on a bit cold track I got within 1,9 seconds of the track record within 15min and reduced it to 1,5 seconds in a further 15min.
Keeping in mind that real professional Kart drivers practice their and I had maybe 2 or 3 hours track time in karts ever, I would say I am not a bad driver.

So when I jump out of rF2 into a kart it just feels like home. I apply nearly the same technique and everything. When I jump into AC it all feels wrong. It is so hard to get wheelspin. You can turn the wheel so much, that you would end up in a wall in real life.

I also spoke to some guys with actual racing experience and they got the same feeling.

The end:
I really wanted AC to be a very good sim and I do love everything about it, but these physics keep me from driving it.
In a sim I don't want it to be easy, I want it to be as realistic as possible, but in AC you can apply some really bad driving technique to get quicker laptimes.

 

[William Levesque]

I don't think brake fade/wear/temp is modeled in AC at the moment, might be part of the problem.

 

[nijeat]

Every racer knows how hard the first braking zone in Monza is. You have a low downforce car and arrive at 260+ kph and have to break down to 60-80kph. So if you look at a lot of GT3 onboards on youtube even with cars, that do have ABS and are a bit restricted due to BOP. They all break before the 200meter board.
That said, I can brake at the 300meter (270kph) board and have the car at a total stand still at 150meters. If I brake for the corner I can brake at or after the 150 meter board.

I'm pretty sure you are joking, or just distorting the fact only like other silly guys.
Look at below video, monza one quali lap with Z4 GT3 by Michela Cerruti, and who has visited the Vallelunga dev office some time. And she takes the braking point exactly at 150m, not 200m.

In addition, just take a look at when she hard brakes the car gets some swaying, which is also valid in AC.

And one more,

Go to 1m14s. This is first turn in race and she takes it around 200m in middle grid somewhere, which also disproves your opinion that all break before the 200m board.

Well, no surprise honestly to hear that some people are still mentioning it again and again. It's so much normal in sim racing world.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

EDIT: Nothing offensive now

 

[Marian Zelenka]

As far as I know, AC is in 0.4 state. Low speed physics doesn't work (they say) and also you can't stall the engine. And it's hard/next to impossible to spin wheels in some cars, yes, but we are not in 1.0 yet. It was already mentioned that the grip is curently not changeable and it's always at its full.

Some cars indeed understeer much, but it's quite good tweakable with setup.

We had the outrage about stopping distance some time ago when they showed that video with 458 GT2 on Monza. I think it was already explained.

Yes, I don't like some things in AC too, but it's still too early to judge. But I think they are on the right path.

 

[William Levesque]

I'm pretty sure you are joking, or just distorting the fact only like other silly guys.
Look at below video, monza one quali lap with Z4 GT3 by Michela Cerruti, and who has visited the Vallelunga dev office some time. And she takes the braking point exactly at 150m, not 200m.

In addition, just take a look at when she hard brakes the car gets some swaying, which is also valid in AC.

And one more,

Go to 1m14s. This is first turn in race and she takes it around 200m in middle grid somewhere, which also disproves your opinion that all break before the 200m board.

Well, no surprise honestly to hear that some people are still mentioning it again and again. It's so much normal in sim racing world.

Holy crap that's late, lol...

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

That Italian series Michela Cerruti drives in must be an arcade series, so much grip and no ice surface.

Lovely videos!

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

As far as I know, AC is in 0.4 state. Low speed physics doesn't work (they say) and also you can't stall the engine. And it's hard/next to impossible to spin wheels in some cars, yes, but we are not in 1.0 yet. It was already mentioned that the grip is curently not changeable and it's always at its full.

Some cars indeed understeer much, but it's quite good tweakable with setup.

We had the outrage about stopping distance some time ago when they showed that video with 458 GT2 on Monza. I think it was already explained.

Yes, I don't like some things in AC too, but it's still too early to judge. But I think they are on the right path.

Thanks for the inside information really appreciate it. I didnt have the time to follow all developments closely. But it is good to hear, that low grip physics are still wip, because they felt a bit weird to me.

So I guess the physics will still improve further. RF2 maybe started with more finished physics so I was expecting the same in AC.

Thanks for all mostly constructive comments. Until we have MP there is not a big motivation for me to drive it, but I hope it will all come good in a more finished version.
I am really looking forward to the further improvements.

 

[zenek]

I'm pretty sure you are joking, or just distorting the fact only like other silly guys.
Look at below video, monza one quali lap with Z4 GT3 by Michela Cerruti, and who has visited the Vallelunga dev office some time. And she takes the braking point exactly at 150m, not 200m.

In addition, just take a look at when she hard brakes the car gets some swaying, which is also valid in AC.

And one more,

Go to 1m14s. This is first turn in race and she takes it around 200m in middle grid somewhere, which also disproves your opinion that all break before the 200m board.

Well, no surprise honestly to hear that some people are still mentioning it again and again. It's so much normal in sim racing world.

Frederic can you reply to that post? What do you think?

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

That Italian series Michela Cerruti drives in must be an arcade series, so much grip and no ice surface.

Lovely videos!

Some people have not understood the intention of my postings

 

[Radek Zukowski]

Thanks for the inside information really appreciate it. I didnt have the time to follow all developments closely. But it is good to hear, that low grip physics are still wip, because they felt a bit weird to me.

So I guess the physics will still improve further. RF2 maybe started with more finished physics so I was expecting the same in AC.

Thanks for all mostly constructive comments. Until we have MP there is not a big motivation for me to drive it, but I hope it will all come good in a more finished version.
I am really looking forward to the further improvements.

Low speed physics have some bugs/workarounds, but they are irrelevant, because they indeed are really low speed, like under 2 km/h or so. On AC forums Aris gave the number.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Some people have not understood the intention of my postings

I did but nowadays humor isn't picked up anymore

In simland ice surfaces are still associated with being sim, hence the smarty remark.

AC does what other sims don't: offer realistic grip levels.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

Frederic can you reply to that post? What do you think?

I cant watch the video at the moment. I found only material where good drivers where breaking much earlier. So my assumption of too much stopping power is wrong. I have no problem to admit that. If it is the true performance capabilities of the car I am just impressed by the Z4 to stop that weight from that speed in such a short distant.

 

[Marian Zelenka]

Also in real car the brake pedal is much stiffer and harder to use 100%. In a sim rig you simply slam the brakes and youre instantly on the full braking.

Well, good for you if you can slam brake pedal easily. I always try to set less pressure on Clubsports when driving too much. I need my foot for going to work too. The brake pedal can be set for 60kg as someone measured it out in a forum I read few days ago.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

I did but nowadays humor isn't picked up anymore

Believe me there are a lot of people who would state that as a serious statement.

I still never understood people with their driving on ice. I have driven on ice in real life, but never found something similar in a sim

 

[William Levesque]

@Frederic Schornstein, how much fuel and what tyres did you have when you were doing your tests ? Just curious.

 

[RaceNut]

For me, the SIM vs. reality accuracy doesn't carry as much weight as it does for others. As teens, we often raced ATV's on trails and frozen streams. Ice-racing (without studs) was incredibly fun even though the speeds were much slower than on dirt. It was all about the competition and the challenge of finding the ideal line, braking points, shift points, throttle application, etc. Any onlooker probably would have been bored to death in a few minutes as the speeds were slow and spins and the like rare.

My point is this, at the end of the day - those same principles apply to whatever SIM you play. It's all about the challenge of squeezing every last millisecond off of your lap-time and turning the perfect lap. Whether it's done in AC, rF2, Race07, iRacing, Dirt2/3, Shift1/2, or whatever title is of little consequence. The accuracy is a nice plus to have but, not absolutely essential. If that were the case, I would seek out the most used title by real-world race teams for training and use that only.

I have not driven any true race cars although, I have driven some very powerful modified street cars and participated in a little autocross, driven carts many times and more. I have even exceeded street car limits quite a few times and managed to still be here to tell about it. AC comes the closest to matching my RL driving experience as any SIm to date in terms of driving characteristics and feel. I'm not saying it has to be perfectly accurate - it just feels right.

My suggestion to someone who is struggling with AC's physics and/or handling is this: spend a substantial amount of time getting familiar and adapting only to AC driving characteristics - maybe for a week or two. Then go back to you favorite SIM and see if that still feels better or more real to you. Then you have all you need to know. IF "real" is that important - then do real, not simulation. No SIM will ever equal real, it's just not possible.

 

[Raig Strehlow]

Keep in mind you got 100% grip for now. You can brake later, drive faster than IRL tracks offer as grip.
"Green Track" with different levels of grip are planned.

 

[BanjoMaster]

Nicky Catsburg says it's good, and Allesandro Balzan says it's good. As far as I'm aware, they're not being paid for endorsements because Kunos simply cannot afford that at the minute. Both those guys' opinions carry a lot ofweight with me personally, particularly Catsburg who I and others rate very highly. Not to try and squash others' opinions such as OP, but that's two solid thumbs up from very respected sources in my opinion. In time I'd like to see more driver endorsements, especially if they're on merit alone

 

[Requiem84]

But as soon as I drive it, it feels just so wrong to me. Just one example: I tested the BMW Z4 GT3 at Monza. I know the track very well and usually drive GT cars, so a perfect combination for me.
Despite all the massive understeer you get everywhere in AC even with setup tweaks,

Do you really get that much ondersteer? I find the BMW pretty oversteery on the brakes. Perception of speed in AC is not really good for me at the moment, which means I often approach te corner faster than I think, hence it might feel like oversteer, while basically you are entering a corner too fast.

I wanted to point out something you can judge on a much more objective level. So I will talk about the braking distance.

Every racer knows how hard the first braking zone in Monza is. You have a low downforce car and arrive at 260+ kph and have to break down to 60-80kph. So if you look at a lot of GT3 onboards on youtube even with cars, that do have ABS and are a bit restricted due to BOP. They all break before the 200meter board.

First of all, like I said, it's very very complicated to compare physics with video's. There are so many unknown variables, are they taking care of the brakes? Which tires are mounted? Is it a qualifying lap? How good is the driver? First session of the weekend on a green and gripless track, or is it fully rubbered in? Did it just rain before the sesson? Etc etc...

And as you can see by other video's in this thread, there are many differences between different youtube clips.

Keep in mind that AC has perfect track conditions (26 degrees, 100% grip) and the Z4 is on supersoft tires by default I believe.

That said, I can brake at the 300meter (270kph) board and have the car at a total stand still at 150meters. If I brake for the corner I can brake at or after the 150 meter board.
So we already have a 25% shorter braking zone compared to a real life car with equal or less power and ABS, which I didn't use.

The video provided above shows a driver that can brake at the 150 meter sign. I would suggest that you would need to be very careful on your assumptions and conclusions! . The only real comparison is a dataplot from AC compared to a real life data plot, where both track temperature, type of tires, setup etc etc are given.

I don't want to get to much into the details of the cornering behaviour and the understeer and that you can just pull on tons of lock and don't get any turn-in oversteer.

This makes me wonder if your wheel and rig is setup good. I do feel some lift off oversteer.

In my free time I did some kart races with friends and even on an unkown track with for me unkonw more powerful karts than the average rental karts on a bit cold track I got within 1,9 seconds of the track record within 15min and reduced it to 1,5 seconds in a further 15min.
Keeping in mind that real professional Kart drivers practice their and I had maybe 2 or 3 hours track time in karts ever, I would say I am not a bad driver.

So when I jump out of rF2 into a kart it just feels like home. I apply nearly the same technique and everything. When I jump into AC it all feels wrong. It is so hard to get wheelspin. You can turn the wheel so much, that you would end up in a wall in real life.

So now you are comparing karting in real life to driving GT cars? Karts have pretty hard tires, no diff, no suspension and when driving indoor, slide like mad.

Taken into account that your brain feels that all the cars should drive like that, it makes sense to me that you think that rFactor2 is more realistic. Why? The tire model is much more slippery than AC's. So yes, basically what you are saying is that GT cars in rFactor drive like go-karts.

If you take into account the aero, mechanical and tire grip from the much softer rubber, a logical conclusion would be that GT cars should slide WAY less than a go-kart. So, basically, I'm saying you are comparing apples with oranges in this case.

I also spoke to some guys with actual racing experience and they got the same feeling.

Kunos also spoke to some guys with actual race experience, even better, they let some guys with actual race-experience of the EXACT same car in real life test AC, and guess what:

- AristotelisVasilakos ‏@Aristotelis16 november
Nick Catsburg drives #assettocorsa : " I like the, almost impossible to save, second oversteer, same in real life"

- AristotelisVasilakos ‏@Aristotelis16 november
Nick Catsburg drives #assettocorsa "I like the little oversteer you get under brakes once in ABS"

For your record, Nick Catsburg drives the Z4 in real life in the Blancpain Endurance Championship: http://www.nickcatsburg.nl/

Alessandro Balzan (drives 458GT in different series) also had a go at Assetto Corsa:

Alessandro Balzan ‏@BalzanAle28 augustus
Just finished to test @AC_assettocorsa I never never had a feeling of tyres and car like that. Later I will write all impression!#shockreal!

Alessandro Balzan ‏@BalzanAle28 augustus
@JesperGB @assettocorsa that is the part that I was talking, you can oversteer and manage it, sure losing time. You will see believe me!

Alessandro Balzan ‏@BalzanAle29 augustus
@JesperGB @assettocorsa driving real racing cars for a racing driver is quite easy. Reaching the limit is hard. This is @AC_assettocorsa.

Further impressions of Alessandro are found here: http://www.virtualr.net/assetto-corsa-allesandro-balzan-test-reporthttp://www.virtualr.net/assetto-corsa-allesandro-balzan-test-report

In a sim I don't want it to be easy, I want it to be as realistic as possible, but in AC you can apply some really bad driving technique to get quicker laptimes.

Which bad driving techniques are you referring to?

Just recently I drove a BMW 120d with 180bhp and you can spin the wheels in it much more easily than in the BMW road cars in AC.

AC tracks have 100% grip. I wonder what would happen when you would drive the 120d on a perfectly rubbered in Monza or Imola at 26 degrees ambient temperature, instead of the (dirty? cold? bumpy?) street where you could spin the tires. Second to that, the tire physics of AC do not work under 2,7km/h. If you have a mathematical tire model like AC's, it's really hard to implement tire behavior close to 0 km/h.

Basically what I'm saying in the above is that you are comparing completely different situations, different vehicles, and that you are basing what you feel is realistic on random youtube video's, and comments from 'guys with real life experience' that can not really be verified.

Conclusion
All of the above is not meant to be a hallelulah for AC, as I also do feel there are improvements than can be made. But what I do say is this: based on current available facts, professional driver comments, and logic, the AC approach of 'driving a GT car is easy, until you get to the limit', is finally a great step that has been made in simracing.

 

[Andrew Ford]

AC physics are cool