Physics realism?

[Christopher Junkins]

Hi, new here and indeed to racing sims/games in general.

I've been doing a little bit of searching for the most realistic driving/racing sims/games out there, and I've landed on "Racer". Looks nice, and the fact that it's free is great, and for PC! (GT5 is PS3 only! what an outrage!)

My question is, in comparison to Reality and the Newtonian and Non-Newtonian physics of this universe of ours, how realistic is the physics and driving "feel" of this sim.? Also, how much difference in the physics is there between cars, or is the physics completely separate from the vehicles? (I.E... in other games (this is my first actual sim) while the physics engine is separate from the vehicles, each vehicle can behave wildly different outside of the differences in the builds... one car will kick it's back end around like a rodeo bull, while another car of similar weight and build will drive perfectly, irrespective of the driver's abilities).

 

[Péter Bártfai]

I've tried a couple of version from Racer, for a free game it's ok, but I think if you would like to try a very good sim with great physics, try:
netKar Pro: http://www.netkar-pro.com/main/ (you can download the game for free, without a license it contains one car and one track)
rFactor: http://rfactor.net/ (you can download the full game again, and you can play it for an hour for free, after that you can buy an unlock code)
Simbin games: http://www.simbin.se/ (there are a couple of demo versions with some cars in them, all playable online, there's also Volvo the game which is free, contains 2 tracks, and a couple of Volvo cars, and there's also RaceRoom the game which is also free and you can download it from raceroom.net after you register there, it contains the Formula RR (which is basically an F1 car), and a Chevrolet Camaro)

These are all very nice quality sims, and they're not even very expensive if you decide to buy them.

 

[April Dillon]

What are the cars in question which drive wildly differently? Because there's a lot of things which can affect that, such as choice of tires (compound and size), weight distribution, engine power, differential, gearing... Sorry, I've got no experience with Racer, so can only offer outsider's information.

 

[QuadCoreMax]

What are the cars in question which drive wildly differently? Because there's a lot of things which can affect that, such as choice of tires (compound and size), weight distribution, engine power, differential, gearing... Sorry, I've got no experience with Racer, so can only offer outsider's information.

All those have a big impact on the final car behavior. Racer is really a big solid project & it simulates quite nicely the Newton world. A skeletal ball thrown in Racer will do his job as you would except, same if you lower the CG, car will be more stable, etc...

I hope Mitch/Ruud will implement wind & other forces (vortex..) to create 'unique' new scenarios.

I test all Racer content with a G25 so yeah it feels great...

 

[Mr Whippy]

Racer is pretty damn good really.

netKar and some others feel nice, but because it's all hidden data, you don't know if it's actually all that accurate. It also depends what you want to do.

For me Racer is great because you can use road cars on the road, with very realistic physics. Nothing else has done that yet.

Can't beat driving along a rough road in a Lambo taking some air and bottoming out on bumps etc

Dave

 

[Christopher Junkins]

Well, like I said I'm new lol.... like REALLY new. I mean I've been into watching NASCAR races all my life, and have played a few games here and there with the keyboard (just got my wheel!)...

And in just getting my wheel, and 1 game, and this "Racer" sim, I'm just now able to put into practice what little about cars I've learned over the years... given that it's all simulated of course lol.

As far as cars that drive wildly different... I was just refering to the fact that a lot of the games I've played over the years will have, say, a lambo.... and let's say they are all the same model... and you can't know the specifics due to the fact that most of the games don't give you that choice or knowledge... in one game the car will drive perfectly alright... VERY controllable. In another game, same car/model will drive without any pose or control, even if you're going 20kph or less around a turn, it will not turn and ends up going off track... u have to go like 1kph or so to make it ... lmao. bad physics in the last case probably.

I mean I know I'm new to racing, especially in a Newtonian-Real environment, but I know the basic concepts like "kissing the apex", "too fast in=going off", "jumping the corner".

And really, to be honest, at the time of writing this, I didn't know that racer was like "no limits roller coaster simulator", in that the sim itself doesn't come with tracks n such (it does come with trains and etc, but not tracks and models)... and that each car can be setup differently lol.


But yea.

 

[Mr Whippy]

Hehe, hmmmm...

Racer is as good as you make it really. For most users, they won't find the issues with a well setup car vs most other 'sims' and games.

It's only in certain conditions cars do weird things, but they can creep into normal use sometimes, and ruin the immersion.

FF still needs to be better imo

Post-limit tyre behaviour can be odd sometimes


Apart from those, most things are consistent enough to be tolerable for me.


Something like TDU2 for example, is pure arcade. It's so arcadey that despite the amazing concept, cars are so annoying to drive and feel so samey, that there is no fun in doing so purely for the sake of it.
Early NFS games had better physics engines because they were consistent. Ie, NFS4/5 were not great wrt physics. You could call them arcade setups, but each car had a character, they were consistent, you could get good. You can plug a modern wheel into either game today and enjoy them without any real issues.


In a way Racers physics don't help it be better. The artists/car setup people are what count the most. So don't expect Racer to be great with any content you choose... some will be really good, some will be average, some will be really bad (ie, Lotus Exige that can drive on walls it has so much downforce )

Dave

 

[Some1]

In a way Racers physics don't help it be better. The artists/car setup people are what count the most. So don't expect Racer to be great with any content you choose... some will be really good, some will be average, some will be really bad (ie, Lotus Exige that can drive on walls it has so much downforce )

Dave

Thing is, we need more physics people. I for one, cannot be bothered tuning the car.ini to match closely the performance of the car I'm modeling. I want to put all my efforts into making the car look accurate and good.

For example, when I made the Corvette and Supra for rFactor, this amazing physics-wizard, Niels Heusinkveld, created awesome and accurate physcis for the cars. Its not just about inserting the values from a magazine or car spec sheet into the game and hope it is accurate (I wish it was ), it's all about knowing what you are doing.

 

[KS95]

Yeah, +1 Some1.

 

[Mr Whippy]

I'm happy to help, as is someone like Cosmo, and I'm sure many others too

A big issue I used to have was working on cars for people at half way mark, but they never got finished/released. Or, things like car models/scales were all out, meaning basic numbers couldn't even be right straight off.


I have about 20 cars here right now that sound nice and drive nice, but are just grey boxes or naff conversions from old games just as a dummy to put the physics to... I love that side of things, but don't always have the time to model/texture a car up (I get half way then just start tinkering with physics and forget the finishing of cars )


Team work is what counts for us now with Racer. I've worked on lots of stuff with both Camsinny and Cosmo alot over the last few years. Content is shuffled about and we all do the bits we are best at... still hasn't helped some of it be released though haha, as we all aim for perfection which we know is often an impossibility for now (ie, Cam's F458 is essentially done, but we are not happy with steering feel yet, but I've said to just get it out the door and get people enjoying it as best they can for now, since we might be waiting years for a decent power steering emulation etc)

Dave

 

[Christopher Junkins]

I'm just happy with something that works, lmao.

Right now, I wouldn't really even consider myself a "rookie" or "newb"... just plain bad. I can't get your lambo around carlswood 1 lap without going off somewhere... even going slow I still slide off. lol. I need a long, large track (like say a recreation of BMW's "top secret" test track, or something similar with a 13 mile straight, but some nice, fun curves along the way )...

 

[Mr Whippy]

Hopefully in a week I'll have a beta of my new track out.

It's probably right up your street

Bit of space there

Dave

 

[Christopher Junkins]

uhm? Dunno what track that is but heh... I wouldn't would I?

But I know one thing whippy, with your lambo, I keep dramatically over steering or something on that blind hill/curve on carlswood... even when I'm going slow, it just whips the back end around no matter how slow I go... unless I'm creeping along. Man, wish we could set up a race so I could learn some car control. LOL. Wana get something going today sometime? I'm up for it, I got all the time in the world lol. I'd host one myself, but I just have a 1Mb down/14k up cable line.

 

[Christopher Junkins]

double posted by accident.

 

[Mr Whippy]

It's Elvington airfield in the UK... big place. Top Gear used it for a show, but unfortunately Richard Hammond decided to get a puncture in the Vampyre rocket car and roll it... doh!

Very long, large areas for test driving etc, and lots of run off space.


As per Lambo over-steering, is that during braking while turning in? Are you using a PC wheel, if so which one?

Dave

 

[KS95]

Hopefully in a week I'll have a beta of my new track out.

I think I'd rather have your other one, haha, that nice country road..

Then again, a new track is a new track, something to play with for a while, eh?

 

[Christopher Junkins]

Thrustmaster Ferrari 3-1... nice wheel, the only one in my budget , so let's not "go there", shall we?

As far as the issue with that corner, and indeed most corners... if I go in at at speed over 20mph, it jumps it and circles round.

Kinda like how in rFactor you end up spinning if you even go near the accelerator in the stock F1 cars lol. BTW, tried out rFactor... spent the whole trial hour trying to get in a race with the stock car they give you, ended up in a F1 race, and getting lapped a billion times, cause I spun out everytime I got first gear near the rev limit for shifting... it's like just accelerating can cause you to spin out, ****ed up. Don't think I'll spend 50 bux just to spin out every time you get near rev limits for shifting.

 

[Christopher Junkins]

BTW, Dave, you willing to toss me an IM handel via PM, or even a ventrilo/team speak 3 server you use?... I'm looking for some gear-heads to talk to .

EDIT:

THATS IT! I've had it with the ai! god damn, ****ing moronic things! LOL, I'm definatly not using those any more. Anyone made a better ai for this or anything? cause what's in it now just doesn't work. (the dev needs to work on these things big time, they don't know your there, they will spin you off the track in a heartbeat... not to mention I barely have control as it is... god... it's like it's set to ignore the player/driver and set to hardest difficulty)... oi.

As far as the lambo/ cars of racer... I just don't know what to do. you can't go more than 60, or you end up off the track due to corners, but if you try to go round a corner at more than 30 you're screwed.. (mph)... to get anything to turn u have to go 20mph, else it just straightlines off the track for several hundred feet. When you try to get back on, you're circleing left/right a billion times just trying to line up and get back on.... unless your going 5-10mph... oi.

 

[KS95]

That might help!

 

[Christopher Junkins]

LOL, already counter-steering. Just didn't know it was called that. it still wants to fish tail like crasy even when doing so... so I end up counter-steering the other way, then it just whips around and I've lost all control.