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WIP Partaharju (public road)

Discussion in 'Bob's Track Builder Projects' started by jtbo, Oct 11, 2011.

  1. http://jtbo.pp.fi/tiedostot/rfactor/partaharju3b.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPPccxQKPQE


    http://jtbo.pp.fi/tiedostot/rfactor/Partaharju3b.zip

    Google Earth-Streetview

    Maybe someday?

    Almost 6.5km tight curves, narrow tarmac road with immediate hazard lurking right next to road.

    Road needs some refining, currently just gps data imported, road profile is ready, terrain needs naturally be made but biggest problem is those trees, I think summer version would be best as there is no snow physics and it is lot more complicated than just lowering grip.

    Making textures would be also a problem, simple 3d objects I can make.

    Also it is possibility to make it only partially real route, so that there is fantasy scenery like now, just perhaps better.

    There is high probability that I never get this finished because lack of skill, but without trying there is not knowing, but first there are other projects that need to be done.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Looks like it could be a very cool project, im sure you could manage to have alot of trees without having too much of an fps loss by using some special techinques..

    As long as you have the dedication to learn and the passion for the project it should be make'able :) Just shout out when youre stuck.

    Is that a 240 in the video?
     
  3. Just tested this. GPS data really makes a difference, roads have much more natural feel. Which is important as this is a simulation game in the end. I really like tracks and projects like this!
     
  4. I made some tests using polish Xpack, there is almost 2200 collision enabled trees now, some traffic signs and cats.
    http://jtbo.pp.fi/tiedostot/rfactor/partaharju3b.zip

    Just experimenting a bit with different ways to make scenery.

    edit: Download is 24MB, just to let you know. Road texture is from Road - Medium Xpack by ennisfargis, traffic signs from European Road Elements Xpack, made by delu77, some objects and trees from Poland vegetation and Poland objects made by martinez.

    I really can't make ditch to blend to grass nicely, also I would like to make some trees, but it is quite difficult, especially when one has no idea how, but maybe I learn, also need to experiment with collision system a bit, would like to make collisions differently.
     
  5. I advise you to open that polish xpack in XPacker (extract polish XPack to XPacker\XPacks, make backups first) and edit every tree. Use collision column (something like 120cmx30cm box) rather than making the whole tree collidable. Everything becomes rock solid when using simple collision, it uses the whole area not just the visible parts of the tree. Collision detection won't use chromakey/alpha, it uses the whole area of faces, visible or not. Making those polish trees collidable makes them simply huge, using collision column only bottom of the trunk makes it much more realistic, predictable.

    Then you can drive under the branches realistically and i think that the game engine will thank you too for removing unnecessary collision volume. A lot of it..

    You have to test this first, using collision column works only with correctly centered objects. It adds a new box around the origin so if the tree is not centered around the trunk, the box may appear at the edge of objects. I used a different tactic, only some of the largest trees collidable and used those all around (i think i used the big japanese tree and one smaller spruce). Collisions adds to processing load quite a lot so making objects collidable when not absolutely necessary is not recommended. Betatesters are crucial here to get performance reports from different systems.

    I think it is anyway better to have a car go thru trees occasionally off track than have it stop in the middle of the road crashing into invisible wall because of some hanging braches..

    Making your own trees is simple process, they are very lo poly. Polish trees uses only 4-8 quads (double for triangles) and you can use their textures before making your own. They have reasonably good chromakey area and alpha layer, and fits to Finnish vegetation. Some textures need just a little hue correction, some of the leaf trees (koivut sun muut...) are different here but pines etc fits perfectly. Trees are so simple that you don't even need 3D editors, it can be done by editing xml files manually but Sketchup+XPacker is the easiest tools to do it.

    I can upload my edited polish xpack, it has all the large trees configured right but preferably you do it yourself. You need to learn how to use XPacks and XPacker properly, it helps a lot in the future and helps to optimize the track performance.
     
  6. Thanks to Johannes from fixing the link :)

    Kenneth, I'm 3ds Max stumbler, can't say user as I lack one part, graphical skill, but simple shapes are not much of issue really, textures are more of issue, even I know alpha, I can't produce correct results, texture guide for dummies might be nice.

    Anyway I can first try it with Polish textures as you say, but need to learn quite few things for that. Collision column is another object at location of tree, right?

    From my memory collision worked between edges and vertices, but not between edges and edges, but it had also some polygon to vertices type of detection which worked worse further from edges and vertices collision point was, but this is memories from 2006 of course, can't remember that much from those days anyway.

    Closer the vertices, better is collision, but hit enough fast and there is no time for collision detection to stop vertices entering wrong side and then FPS drops and result is buggy, if too little vertices then one just goes trough the object, that is general idea how it works from my memory and one should adjust collision object of course accordingly.

    There is of course odd chance that it was some other sim that has this kind of collision model, in my memory old things tend to get mixed up, but I think it was only rFactor that I studied that much back in those days. I think that we would need some Finnish XPack, nokanmov has made quite lot of photos, which could be used to make textures and then put it up as Finnish nature pack, if many would work together it would not be long until we could have few trees, maybe some traffic signs etc. to create some of our beautiful country to digital life.

    I would like to get something that looks like real road, but complexity of scenery is easily issue, like in here, streetlamps switching sides, many different kinds of trees, ground type is sometimes forest, sometimes ex forest, in that pic there is also sundog that is very close, but that is of course not necessarily, that photo just shows nicely different shapes of surroundings as being so dark that it is easier to see what of those actually would need to be objects, at least so it works for me.

    [​IMG]

    I have been thinking about multilayer tree walls and sawtooth profile treewalls which might work better than simple treewall, but yet have better performance than making all those trees, some places trees are fine, some places forest is like a wall at side of road, but edge of forest hardly ever is straight, so it needs some tricks to look correct. Ground at side of road varies quite a bit too, that needs some planning too, simple ditch at side of road does make proper effect for sure, there is not hope for saving a car on that road if one goes off the road, but quite often looks of it are not correct.

    I'm not very worried about performance, it is point to point, not really suitable for multicar driving, unless one wants to emulate traffic, also I build road firstly for myself, so as long as it works on my outdated rig, it is ok with me, if others can enjoy from it, all the better, but for some track will be too heavy to run, but when they sometime in future upgrade hardware then they can run and I hope it still would be usable. Of course it can take so long to build that any hardware is good when it is completed and nobody is no more using rF1 by then so many things have to be redone for newer platform, but hard to predict these things.

    As I support greatly goal to have as brutal damage as in reality (for car that is), there will be quite severe results from hitting ditch or tree, that is with my own car mods of course, creating that fear one experiences in real world going fast on such course is very important, hopefully I can achieve that goal, at least it is very difficult to get back on track now, which is good, drive off and race ends, that is the goal :)


    This is how that current test version of track's scenery looks like, I'm getting around 280fps with my old 8800GTS and Core 2 Duo:
    [​IMG]

    I did put here some photos from roads and roadsides, also one stop motion video, which can be loaded to VirtualDub and then scrolling by mouse wheel one can move in video, good for general view of road area and how it varies and what one sees on Finnish roads, also as it is spring time, ditches etc are most visible, at winter covered in snow at summer grass and such covers most of it.
    http://jtbo.pp.fi/tiedostot/rfactor/ditches/
     
  7. It's looking good. I use the random function in BTB to create more complex meshes. Usually those that comes straight from the editors simple tools are too flat. For roadside something like X=10 y=8 is my default. Same for roads, more lateral random than vertical so the small bumbs and valleys won't appear in line.

    Collision column is simple transparent box shape that is created in XPacker and added to the object at export, AFAIK. I think all gmotor2 games uses faces to calculate collisions not vertices, again not a fact but speculation. I have no idea how modern games does collision detection, with old sidescrollers it was soooo easy.. "Did your character move to location X,Y on screen? Yes. Life=Life-1"
    I use multiple layers for the most important treewalls, i think with efficient materail usage the effect is quite nice. I won't shy of doubling a large texture that is used all around the track just be able to use different mipmaps and slighthly different levels like changing the hue and saturaion for the second layer. What i've heard from material usage it doesn't matter so much if you have 100 or 10 materials, the more materials you have on screen at any given time is costly. Not if they are not drawn. So some of the tips for using less and less materials is somewhat false but it was simpler for me to understand at the very beginning. Usually the amount of materials in a reace track won't become an issue if somekind of moderation is used..
     
  8. I learned what i know about transparency by studying the said Polish XPack and experimenting. There are a lot of texture guides around, mostly for FPS or other than simracing. But the same principles are there too. Maybe we should do a finnish trackbuilders society or something like that..
     
  9. It would be small society, but smaller the quanity, better the quality :wink:

    I'm devoting more time for car project of Johannes at the moment, so learning track stuff is taking bit more time, however I find this to be rather nice snack while doing car physics, it is important to take distance every now and then with that or one ends up with rubbish, but same I think is with track building too.

    Whole surrounding terrain will change as also road will change, it is not quite complete yet, those ditches are actually part of road shape as it is much simpler to make that way, but now first I try to learn methods and ways of making all things as when being able to do it will come out better.

    There will probably be many different test versions along the road as I like to share even incomplete versions, might get new ideas from others that way, evolving process or such.
     
  10. I just wonder if Kenneth would be interested of a building a "track" for the modding project :cool:

    Finnish modding society sounds good, or similar something
     
  11. There's already an Australian (O.A.C.G) & an Afrikaans circuits group 'potentially' starting up, as well as this (Finnish that is)....
    Im wondering if maybe a 'Real Roads Racing' would cover, if not all of these, then at least MOST of these?
    Especially considering the TYPE of roads that we're all enjoying here.....
    It COULD save space on the server AND keep the thread('s) a bit more active....
    Just a thought fella's.....

    (edit) P.S. Ive also thought a few times about the possibility of running a server through RD for a BTB builders only track 'testing' channel as some of us don't have a stable enough internet for hosting but it's still good enough for joining a race......
     
  12. Real Roads Racing sounds very cool, I am personally into that almost completely. Also I like the idea of RD test bed, I wonder if it would be doable? Would be really nice...
     
  13. LOVELY looking road jtbo!
    Shame I can't get a full download on ANY of those links- although I think it IS my own 'net here....
    A 'Real Road Racing' page keeping all these similar threads slightly more active WOULD mean that it's Fantasy/ fictional/semi-fictional AS WELL AS real tracks that were incorporated on it....
    And as for an RD BTB 'test bed' server, it would mean some way of making sure it's only builders, whether BTB-er's OR otherwise, that have access to the track &/or server.....
    Anyway, it's just a thought & Im sorry if Ive high-jacked/derailed/off-topic-ed the thread here,just figuring on saving server space.....
     
  14. Sure, what HP and mass in the mod, what type of track (i might have some ready, just never published) ;) Real Road Racing, tracks that aren't safe.. Sounds good and catchy, RRR. And it's tt not th but that's another story..
     
  15. I have no better details yet, but it should be road track located in USA. Road layout can be completely fictional, but scenery should look some what real and plausible. Like a semi-fictional or something :D I believe jtbo has some good GPS-routes (like this Partaharju) which can be used as starting point, but lets wait him to comment something on this.
     
  16. Do I really need both Chroma and Alpha channel for trees to work?

    With chroma I get nice pink boxes around trees, RGB 255, 0, 255 set in 3ds max as chroma and Xpacker, texture I have tried to set 1, 3 and 5 DXT without much of difference, with 5 I can of course choose chroma and still manipulate alpha channel and I get transparency via alpha channel.

    I think that first that I did test Chroma did work just fine and I think that there really is not much settings to be toyed with.

    Not quite sure about 3ds max material settings which those should be, One - Zero, double sided, then at map chroma transparency checked and color choosed to RGB 255, 0, 255, T1 shader with DX9.

    Or maybe it is not even needed at all, material is set in xpacker too, also haven't found very good listing of gmotor material settings for different objects really, so I use mostly defaults.

    I guess there is somewhere thread about 3ds max -> BTB xpack, just haven't found one yet.

    Making trees itself or other track side objects is not much of challenge, but those material settings and texture making is annoyance.

    Also when I put shadows to max I can see there are some parts of tree not erased, but so far there has been no way to see those parts at image editor (GIMP), not in alpha channel, not in anywhere I can see such and I have used eraser on every channel and layer to get rid of those levitating pieces of snow, but no avail. Those black lines at tree tops, I can't see anything and no matter how I erase, those will not go away, but at least I can now manage alpha layer somehow. Also those trees are ugly, but I intended to just quickly test making some trees, which ended up to be full evening and night of wrestling with single tree. So I need to study more of it, also need to browse trough my photos for better texture candidates, might even take some photos so I would learn whole process much better.
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Latter part of this might have some good roads, it is all prepared for BTB, just need to cut some proper part of it:
    http://jtbo.pp.fi/tiedostot/rfactor/11_nmea.zip

    Here is Google earth file so you can actually see where roads are, coordinates are of course different system, but I think that kansalaisen karttapaikka can help with that?
    http://jtbo.pp.fi/tiedostot/rfactor/11_nmea.kmz

    There is some bug in data so that from Sodankylä to Peurasuvanto is just straight piece, also there was some issues bit earlier after Kajaani and at Puolanka had to drive bit back and forth, but there is plenty of road to choose from even if ignoring those missing pieces. Good part of data is that it makes ready to drive road, road camber etc of course need to be adjusted, but easiest way to get lot of rather good road, imo.
     
  18. If you are exporting objects from Max to BTB, you should not use any gMotor materials for that. Im not sure but they can mess up things. Just use normal Max materials for applying textures and then just export to Xpack format (3ds or 3do I can't remember).

    I am not sure about the floating pieces of snow, it might be error on how graphics are drawn, but also something odd in the texture files. I've seen that happen in many tracks thou.

    You can get rid of the black lines by scaling the texture just a little bit in BTB material editor, yes, that is the only solution. Black lines are unexplainable :tongue:

    Chroma should be used for trees if they are overlapping each other, graphics engine has serious trouble rendering overlapping alpha-textures correctly. You will see some very odd results with alpha.
     
  19. Thanks from tips, must try without gmotor materials then, much easier that way too :) Those levitating snow pieces are texture issue, I can see them in max and at xpacker texture viewing screen, but they don't appear at gimp. However I can see where they are if I choose blue channel and give command 'selection from layer/channel', then I have selection that includes also those spots, then I can paint them black or some other color, erase color and have black or other color instead of white. Now that I think about it, there is option erase color for bucket fill, that might do it, must try that later, it is really odd how color picker can get color reading but still nothing can be seen, quite annoying actually, but that must be because I know too little about it. I did notice that selecting alpha transparency is not correct way, hard to explain what I did saw and I'm just trying to forget what I saw and move forward, there are no words which could explain it. Setting shadows to maximum does produce quite nice results even with those not so good trees, it is however rather heavy for performance 330 meters track I managed to get fps 140(ish), that is with one car and no AA or AF, without shadows somewhere around 300fps.