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Outbreaking instructor in Driving School, question about locking tyres, braking technique in GTR?

Discussion in 'GTR 2' started by JohannDaart, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. JohannDaart

    JohannDaart

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    Hi I just got interested in sim racing, and GTR2 with its Driving School seems to be best sim to get started :)

    I have some questions about braking in (vanilla) GTR2 - what's the most effective braking technique in GTR2?

    In braking section of Driving School I can't outbrake AI instructor on wet (exercises 7 & 8) fast enough to get Gold rating.
    I'm using DFGT (so pedals are toyish), and in settings brake sensitivity is set on default 50%. I've turned up tyre sounds to the max.

    When I "observe" AI doing that exercise, there's no tyre sound at all when he brakes.

    I'm trying different things, braking whole time, braking hard initially and releasing brake 1-2cm... Braking early or late... Still too slow to get gold.

    1) In GTR2 does any tyre squeal indicate a lockup? What sound effect should I turn to the max to get the best info about lockups? Maybe it's the "road noise" option?
    2) Should I aim to brake in a manner that produces no squeal at all?
    3) Approximately for how long should I hold the brake on full power to get the most of the braking phase before a corner? For the first half of the red braking area? First quarter of it and then slowly release? 3/4 of the braking area on full brake and then slow release for the remaining 1/4?

    Thanks a lot for any tips :)
     
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  2. DucFreak

    DucFreak

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    Honestly, you're giving too much credit and importance to GTR2's driving school highest score, instead of focusing on the mere basics while progressing through the tests.
    You have to understand that, as serious as GTR2 is, there is still a "gaming" element behind it. A bit like GranTurismo before, the "gold" trophy score is considered more of a gaming gimmick than something indicative about your skills.

    In reality, the "bronze" scores are good enough, and "silver" is actually the intended good score. :thumbsup:
    For newcomers (sometimes even for veterans), the "gold" score can be quite difficult to get (sometimes less, sometimes more) - and that is on purpose. :ninja: The gold score should be considered more like a challenge, something for the user to repeat later (the tests) if so interested, or for the utterly competitive individual who can only accept the best scores.
    What really matters is that you understand and retain what is teached throughout the exercises - the racing lines and braking/acceleration aproaches, the lines (through the apexes) and different corners, etc.
    Some tests seem trully vague and redundant, but what you quickly realise is that what you exercised for "X" corner on driving exercise "Y" at track "Z", can be applied exactly the same way on some other corner at some other new track that you're lapping for the first times. :coffee:

    Making time-trials against your own "ghost" (of your previous best lap) on a track of your preference is also a really good complement to GTR2's driving school.

    The best advice you'll see around is "to be smooth". :cool:
    For example, braking too late can be good (for overtaking, etc) but, for pure laptime purposes, sometimes braking a little earlier so that you can pickup the throttle earlier as well (and smoothly so) can be better.
    And yes, you should avoid locking the wheels when braking, as that will increase temperatures and wear in the tyres and, when it happens, it allows less control when driving. For more on the matter, and in relation to GTR2, maybe take a look at this.

    In here, contrary to arcade games, and following real life racing, the more agressive, excessive and abrupt with exaggerated movements you get, the less consistent you'll be (inconsistent laptimes), and the more the tyres will suffer (heat and wear, on and on, in a vicious loop), not to mention yourself behind your wheel getting tired and exhausted at a higher rate. :sick: Also, it's great to do very stylish drifts and slides but, in here, that's opposite to what's intended :poop: - avoid that at all costs.
    The idea with most of these "hardcore" games is to take care of your car (and yourself) for the entire race (which are long), while lapping the fastest you can, on and on.
    So, try to avoid being too "nervous" in your driving (overdriving, pushing things excessively). Be imediate and precise in what you do, but as smooth and relaxed as you can.

    Remember, GTR2 is a recreation of the FIA-GT series, which were endurance type races (usually up to three hour races), where there was also a special event called the Spa 24 Hours (which is also recreated in the game).
    If later you want the ultimate experience, try to follow the real life series aproach - which means, races with a full grid for three hours per event! ( :geek:....good luck! LOL)
    Years ago during some holydays, I did an 8-hours endurance race with four friends gathered as a team. We shared a sim-racing cockpit, each on 40 minutes periods. Lots of beer and fast food (unlike real series!) but it was extremely fun - if tiresome at some point!

    If you're that interested in techniques and aproaches, then maybe take some time to learn a bit more around, and then try to replicate what you learn into the game.
    These are very decent material for anyone to learn driving techniques on race track and sim-racing:

    Most of all, I'd say to have fun. Try not to overthink it, take your time, no need to be too technical.
    Especially, avoid being too competitive. The skills, overtakings and laptimes will come with time.
    Once you feel confident, and good enough to race close with your car glued to other people's cars without bumping, lap after lap, then go online to race with other humans. That's when you'll progress faster (and perhaps enjoy yourself the most). :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  3. JohannDaart

    JohannDaart

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    Yep, you are right, I'm sick with my own completionism, it kills a lot of fun for me in everything I do. It's a burden I can't get rid off hahha. Monkey on back.

    That sounds like my kind of fun haha!

    True, but is there a way to judge if tyres are locking up in GTR2 by the sound they make? If I hear their squeak it means they are locked?

    Thank you for all the tips and links, I will check them out :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. DucFreak

    DucFreak

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    You'll feel it through the force feedback in your wheel. Audio clues are important, of course, but not the most vital. The FFB in your wheel is also related to the grip, so the less grip the less force resistance. If the tyres are locking up, the force strenght goes down in your wheel (wheel becomes numb) just as abruptly and, yes, the tyres will "squeak" in sound (and eventually produce some tyre smoke).

    Maybe some recommendations can help you out?

    First the Audio settings. I'd recommend these:

    [​IMG]


    Next, I'd recommend to try some specific settings for your DFGT, which is still a tremendously effective wheel, regardless of "toy-ish" looks or materials.
    It's fundamental that it is well setup'ed for each game. In the particular case of GTR2, I'd suggest:

    In the Logitech Profiler, set your rotation and your FFB settings at:
    • Force Feedback at 100% (don't use more than that, as spikes will occur in FFB)
    • Centering Spring "checked" but at 0% (yes, zero percent)
    • Wheel Rotation at 540º or 630º (try either of the two, see which you feel better with)
    If you're not using the Logitech Profiler, I suppose you can also alter these settings from your Windows Control Panel.
    Using 540º rotation for the wheel was always very popular for GTR2. Alternatively, 630º has been another good option. This is due to two factors, first for realism, second for the default setups.
    Regarding realism, AFAIK, the real life FIA-GT racecars varied between 540º and 720º steering rotation.
    Regarding default setups, and IIRC, I believe Blimey!Games (who developped GTR2 for Simbin) used a steering ratio of 19,5 for all these cars. Which means then that using either 540º or 630º are the best choices for the default GTR2 setups of all cars, which all use the "Steering Lock" setting at a default value of "15" (see in the garage car setup in the game).

    Next, in GTR2's game settings for the CONTROLS:

    ADVANCED:

    Sensitivity
    • Steering ----- 50%
    • Throttle ----- 50%
    • Brake -------- 50%
    • Clutch ------- 50% - not used (as there's no clutch pedal on DFGT), so it doesn't really matter.
    Deadzone
    • wheel (steering) --------------------- 0%
    • throtle (pedal) ------------------------ 1%
    • brake (pedal) -------------------------- 2%
    • clutch (pedal) -------------------------- 2% - not used (as there's no clutch pedal on DFGT), so it doesn't really matter.
    FORCE:

    Select (i.e, click on) the Logitech G25 setting (highlighted at top under specialized effects)
    ForceFeedback Effects: put at LOW or MEDIUM (as anything higher will introduce canned effects and spikes in your wheel)
    ForceFeedback Strenght: as high as you feel comfortable with (start with 100%, then decrease if necessary).
    Make sure "REVERSE EFFECTS" is checked.

    SPEED SENSITIVE STEERING should always be at 0% (zero percent) if using a steering-wheel controller (like the DFGT), as it is a setting meant mostly for gamepad, joystick and keyboard controls (it works as a steering-damper, and increases damping strenght with speed).

    Button preferences are up to you, of course.

    If even after setting up the wheel things feel "twitchy" (too sensitive), that can be also helped by decreasing the mentioned sensitivity on the controls (see above).
    50% sensitivity means totally linear input, so that is the ideal, perfect setting. But sometimes people reduce these sensitivity values down to 40% to make it smoother (meaning, not recommended but up to individual).

    Lastly (and IMO), before being accustomated to a wheel/controller (or driving a car), selecting the faster racecars right from the start in this game is (obviously) the biggest mistake.
    For instances, three cars that are great to learn the game initially (IMO), are the BMW Z3M, the Gillet Vertigo Streiff, and the Porsche 911 GT3-Cup. Especially in tracks like Donington Park, Imola or Anderstorp (any versions of these tracks), these make for a nice car/track combo for learning matters, because of the good cornering flow, and easy good manners of those cars. Good to understand and feel the car reactions, sliding/countersteer, smooth driving, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  5. JohannDaart

    JohannDaart

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    Thank you a lot for all of your help, I'm using your settings now :)
     
  6. HypoToad

    HypoToad

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  7. JohannDaart

    JohannDaart

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    I've applied that ffb settings, and it feels nice :) I've also tried "real feel" settings posted somewhere else, and they are good too :)

    Thank you for your recommendations :)

    But, I'm still confused about braking in GTR2 :(

    Right now I don't really aim for gold gears. My aim is to learn proper braking technique (push hard, keep pressed, slow release before wheels start to lock).

    For testing purposes I've turned up tyre scrub noises and turned on outside view. I've also increased brake pressure in settings up to 100%.

    Then on the straight I braked hard without release to full stop, and when tyres lockup, they make different noise and there's smoke.

    But then in driving school braking exercise on wet (7 & 8), I've noticed that to hit apex right, I need to brake to around 60 km/h at the end of the braking zone.

    And damn!
    It's impossible to brake down to 60 km/h using only red braking area without locking tyres!
    Or at least I'm not able to do so...

    Should I brake with locking during races? I still lack finesse in other aspects of cornering, but what habits should I aim for?
     
  8. DucFreak

    DucFreak

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    You should NOT be locking the wheels so easily. As said before, it's very bad for tyre temperatures/wear and car control, not to mention that it can also ruin braking distances.

    It may be a variety of factors and not just car setup, i.e, not just one single thing causing the issue.
    I'll go in parts and try to make this clearer, for you to contemplate different solutions...

    First, the car setup.
    Try changing the brake pressure there.
    If you're doing the Driving School, where you have the screen to choose the different sub-exercises, you'll see two options on top, "TECHNIQUE" and "GARAGE".
    Click GARAGE and there under the "BRAKES" area, you have the setting to reduce brake pressure. Originally it's 100%, try changing to 90%.
    After changing, click "TECHNIQUE" on top and then you can "TRAIN" or "ATEMPT". :)
    Personally, I can be a bit "hamfisted" at times with the brakes (too much of a brute sometimes), so I prefer a margin of safety and use brake pressure from 90% to 95% (depending on car, etc). I never use the default 100% on car setups, exactly to reduce chances of locking the wheels.

    Second, the SENSITIVITY settings in the CONTROLS section. As said in a previous post, these should all be at 50% (so that there's full linearity) but some prefer to reduce the sensitivity settings for the pedals (brake, throtle, clutch) a bit lower, down to 40%.

    Third, it may have to do with braking techniques used (good or bad).
    Again (said in a previous post), and also in relation to GTR2, take a look at this.

    Fourth (and lastly), it could have to do with the pedals.
    For example, I use an old Logitech DFP, which is very similar to (and older than) the DFGT. It uses the same pedals, which lack tension and are over sensitive, waaay too much.
    Most of the older mainstream wheels (still today, perhaps) suffered from this, and this is one of the reasons why, well over a decade ago, it became common to sim-race with shoes off, with socks or bare foot. I prefer to use soft shoes myself (the softer the better).

    Perhaps the best thing I did was to "mod" my Logitech DFP, by using that old trick of using a Squash ball under the brake pedal, so that there's more tension in it. I strongly recommend it for anyone using the Logitech DFGT, or DFP, or Momo models (pedals are basically same in these), it's much better then.
    You can get Squash balls from any propper sports shop. I believe there are different types, some "softer" some "harder" and are identified by color (blue, black, yellow...?), I just got blue because it's what the sports shop had.
    You just stick it under the brake pedal (inside the cavity there). I just used one but I clearly remember people saying that they would put two under the brake pedal, or even three of them (one on each side of the pedal and one in the middle), which actually makes sense.
    This following image is not from mine but it's similar (notice that this guy seems to be using two or three squash balls in there):

    [​IMG]

    :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  9. JohannDaart

    JohannDaart

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    You have been very helpful Duc, thank you a lot :)

    I'm a bit scared that that squash ball will cause pedal break - that plastic isn't sturdy...

    Anyways, I came to the conclusion that my braking will improve with time, and now I should focus on getting good lines, hitting apexes, and getting on throttle early while turning out properly.

    So I need to brake earlier witout worrying about outbraking anyone haha

    I have some problems with big corners like Monzas Parabolica and Grande/Biassono.
    I need to shift gears up while driving on them... But how to do it properly with the wheel turned and sequential shifter? With FFB is hard to keep the wheel turned with one hand...
     
  10. DucFreak

    DucFreak

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    No problem. :)

    Regarding the Squash ball trick and pedal break risk, you're right, it may happen in the long-term.
    However, the Squash balls are actually soft enough not to be problematic.
    If it serves as reference, my Logitech DFP was bought in late 2004(!) and it's all still working fine today, and it has seen some abuse up untill some three years ago (when I took a break from sim-racing). ;)

    Regarding the braking, follow my leads above, those will certainly help.
    I think everybody goes through the same problem in GTR2 (and also GT-Legends), just maybe more or less problematic depending on individual. And when all else fails, well, then there is still the ABS assistance. ;)

    Regarding your description of being unable to keep the wheel turned with one hand in such corners, then (IMO) that means you're using the FFB much too strong. You need to tone down a bit that FFB strenght in options.
    IRL, these race cars are usually absent of power-steering (which all road cars use) - no power steering, the faster you drive the easier it is to steer. AFAIK, they do not have such a harsh steering force that would require the driver to really have two hands on wheel at all times during such corners. They are precision racing machines, not fitness machines for body building. :) lol

    Maybe some real FIA-GT videos for you to see the driver's hands and wheel shake could describe this mental image better for you. Here are a few that may serve the purpose:



     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  11. JohannDaart

    JohannDaart

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    That's exactly what I've figured out too... During long turns real racing drivers hold wheel with one hand firmly so they can shift up.
    I've always wondered why they hold the wheel so firm... Now I know - you often need to control the car with one hand only ;)

    Examples of wheel turned and controlling it with one hand while changing gears.

    Group C driver on Parabolica (9m26s):


    Senna on Biassono (0m27s) (it looks hard and violent haha, I think his wheel turns harder than in DFGTs FFB):


    I started holding wheel more firmly + I've lowered FFB power down to 80% as you recommended and it helped, thanks :)

    Also, in Driving School Monza track practice is done on Lambo... Lambo is too fast. It's a disaster for me. I can't control it properly yet.

    But I took Gilette and damn as you recommended- finally I can have some fun :)

    Too bad I can't practice Monza in separated sectors with Gilette like in Driving School :/
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017