Open letter from Devs

[Antonio Crinò]

Can someone post it here please?

 

[fortyfivekev]

...

However, corner one at Spa was the clustercluck I was expecting - you can simulate a race but you cannot engender the fear of borking a €500k GT car and neither can you instil a sense of physical fear - so crashes are more likely to happen than in real life. After that I had fun...

Did you watch the Spa 24 hours the last couple of years? Huge pile-ups at Raidillon are common in real life GT3 as well. Outside of the WEC, GT3 driving standards are not great. Getting rear-ended by the AI or in MP is probably more realistic than we might think

 

[xnorb]

There are 3 types of pile-ups:
a) A real pile-up where everybody tries to pass the mob
b) Your typical Racing game pile-up where all the cars stay on the racing line and you can gain 20 positions in T1
c) The "I brake at the 100 sign, no matter if people already stopped at the 150 sign" MP driver cause pile-up.

The pileup in a) is what i want to see in my racing sims

 

[Ernest Aubert]

I see these comments all the time. Why aren't you racing online here at RD then? We don't have such driving standards in our club races

That's what I'm referring to. That's why I gave up. It reinforced my inherent opinion that when the element of competition is introduced into an enjoyable activity, it degrades the purity of the activity. I mean activities that aren't by their very nature competitive; that one can engage in by oneself.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Please explain the level of competition in our racing club as there is none The only place where it becomes competition for the points are our leagues. The rest are social nights.

 

[Andreas Knöpke]

fail, sorry.

 

[Andreas Knöpke]

I tried that, and always got taken out by being hit from behind while I was driving cleanly.

Sorry, don't take that personally but those comments usually come from people who are simply not used to drive with others. So your opinion about driving cleanly could just as easily mean that you stick to your line no matter what, not being able to react to unusual circumstances and not being used to share the space on the road.

That's what we have the evenings events for, so people can use the cars to drive fast and to develope their racecraft. Many people often just jump into leagues with no or very little prior on track experience just thinking they did many public races and thus have all the skills they need....

 

[Borbor]

That's what I'm referring to. That's why I gave up. It reinforced my inherent opinion that when the element of competition is introduced into an enjoyable activity, it degrades the purity of the activity. I mean activities that aren't by their very nature competitive; that one can engage in by oneself.

yet the very act of comparing laptimes is in itself a form of competition.

I daresay having your laps timed in itself is already a competition, because inevitably you'll seek to go faster than your previous attempts. Whether you'd like to admit it or not, you're competing against yourself (nevermind others if you're looking at laptimes of other people)

 

[zAmboni]

I am a bit confused about some of Aris' complaints.

Just because he doesn't see people talking about x,y,z on the official AC forums, doesn't mean its not happening elsewhere. I would have to say that much of it is Kunos' own fault. When I first got AC, it was a pain trying to learn about racecraft. I've always liked racing games/sims, but wasn't really knowledgeable about many of the finer details that go into racing a real car. I quickly realized finding that type of information wasn't going to happen in the official AC forums.

EVERYTHING outside the nuts and bolts of the actual game was all thrown into the "Chit Chat" forum where it was nearly impossible to find any signal because there was so much noise. Eventually I ended up here and rarely look at the Kunos forums. Because the forums were never really set up to be a gathering place for AC drivers, they all split off to find their own communities. It is hard to fault people for not posting things in the AC forum when they have found a home elsewhere.

Why talk about car setups and setup guides at Kunos when you have to go to RD (or elsewhere) to download setups? The discussions are likely going to be held where you find the information. I've learned more about racecraft and setups on Teamspeak here at RD doing club races/leagues than I have by actually reading guides.

The ppl I have raced with here at RD have been really helpful. The fast guys want to help out the slower ones and aren't stingy about sharing tips and setups. Many of the questions that once would show up in forums are now being asked over teamspeak during a club race practice. It is a lot easier to learn and have questions answered by watching others during an online session and actually being able to talk to them in realtime.

 

[Brandon Wright]

AI isn't broken.
MP isn't broken.
Physics aren't broken.
Cars aren't broken.

I don't see a faulty product here.
I also don't see an unfinished product here for the featurelist that is available on the store page.

It might be not as good as we'd want it to be, but that's a different story.

Nowadays people are buying a game with an expectation rather than simply looking at the feature list and reading/watching reviews to base their purchase decision on.
It's not the fault of Kunos that we thought the MP part would be more like iRacing and the AI would be more like in rFactor 2. As far as i can tell, they never promised anything in that direction.

For me, what's faulty is the way it's advertised as "Your RACING Simulator", and there's very little in AC that meets my expectations of what a racing simulator should be. Yeah, it has cars on tracks, but that's about it. The track environments are sterile and dull, the AI (at least before the last update) is pointless, the career mode feels like an afterthought, and driving at 200mph feels the same as driving at 30mph. I watch dozens hours of motorsports every month and usually attend about half a dozen in person each summer, what AC presents does not compare to a real major motorsports event. It's more like a track day at an abandoned circuit, and I find that to be very disappointing, to the point I've basically given up on it altogether and other than a short session after the latest update I haven't touched it in months.

Like I said, this is just based on my expectations which only apply to me, though my expectations really aren't that high. But AC was the game/sim that convinced me to finally leave consoles and get a proper gaming PC, and when I finally got to try this game I'd heard so much about, it was an utter letdown and probably the most disappointed I've been with a racing game. A lot of this had to do with me expecting that PC sims were all like rFactor and GTR and Race07, sims which I'd heard amazing things about for many years. So I was very disappointed to find AC was not up to the standards of 5-10 year old sims (and it doesn't appear it ever will be). And that's my fault for having incorrect expectations, but it does puzzle me why they thought a bare-bones, sterile "driving simulator" would cut the mustard after the games mentioned above had set the bar so high.

Just my opinion and I'm not saying it's any better or more correct than anybody else's, but these are the reasons I have been disappointed in AC and why I don't engage in threads discussing track nuances or setup secrets, because none of that is going to address the many other issues I have with AC. They have a good foundation to build on, and in theory it could evolve into something that I would really enjoy, but I don't see any progress in that area and this open letter tells me that there probably won't ever be any since KS appears to consider this a simple driving simulator instead of a full-fledged racing sim.

 

[Cristian Haba]

Eventually @Brandon Wright you will end up driving this sim and you might see why so many of us are egging it on, it's missing the immersion, and the mp and etc etc, but the core (actual driving) is really good.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Eventually @Brandon Wright you will end up driving this sim and you might see why so many of us are egging it on, it's missing the immersion, and the mp and etc etc, but the core (actual driving) is really good.

I have well over 100 hours in AC, I know all about what it offers (or doesn't). It just doesn't come close to scratching my itch for virtual motorsports, and while the FFB feels good I find the driving experience to be very dull and sterile. Very little sense of speed or movement, braking from high speeds is a non-event (where in other sims it nearly makes me poop myself), going through a turn at 50mph feels the same as 150mph, the tracks look abandoned and lifeless, all of that combined with the lack of basic features or a compelling offline mode just makes it not my cup of tea. I have no problem with others enjoying AC and I'm not suggesting anyone needs to share my opinion, it just does nothing for me personally. I really want to love it, I just can't find much to love about it.

I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, and I think some of these issues address the core of the open letter. Why would we bother to discuss proper lines through a track or setup secrets when we find the majority of the game to be dull? If I'm at a restaurant and have a sandwich with delicious meat, fresh veggies, and tasty bread I will be sure to recommend it to my friends. But if that sandwich has delicious meat but the veggies are soggy and the bread is stale, well it will be forgettable and not worth discussing.

Again, I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me and I'm not bashing AC or Kunos. I'm just sharing some reasons why people may not be spending a lot of time discussing the intricacies of the game as much as the devs would like.

 

[Cristian Haba]

Still dat meat tho

 

[Brandon Wright]

Still dat meat tho

I think SCE's meat is pretty much as tasty, but their toppings and sauce and bread are to die for!

 

[fortyfivekev]

I have well over 100 hours in AC, I know all about what it offers (or doesn't). It just doesn't come close to scratching my itch for virtual motorsports...

Well I agree with you to some extent, for me at least AC started as a driving simulator and it is taking Kunos quite a while to add racing features and it is still short of RF2, iRacing, GSCE, etc. in a bunch of areas. The fairly recent addition of basic flags, pit-stops, etc. shows they didn't have racing as an initial priority so I guess that is why Aris wants to focus on the driving.

But I do think the driving and feel of the cars in AC actually stacks up fairly well against it's competitors. I played a lot of GTR, etc. back in the day and I enjoy the actual driving in AC a lot more and the better visuals are way more immersive. People complain about Kunos speed of development, but compared to ISI and iRacing they are really zooming along.

I think a lot of the lack of immersion in the home sims now is just down to the hardware and environment most of us have to race in. If you watch videos of people with high-end wheels when they are taking a corner at 150mph they are putting in a much more realistic amount of effort compared to me with my G27 turning the wheel with one hand while sipping a coke.

 

[Radu Oros]

@Brandon Wright have you ever driven in a race track with a medium-high speed car? Or you're basing your experience in AC with driving at city speed limits? Are you basing real life immersion vs home immersion with a monitor sitting on a chair?
Do you know what is actually sense of speed? It is based on the objects that pass by your peripheral vision. The "screen" of real life is huge compared to a fixed monitor on our desk. Maybe virtual devices like oculus rift and vive can fill that immersion gap.

(turn down the volume on this video, just wind noise)
He has other videos with similar content in his channel.

I think in that video he's constantly going over 200kmh, but can look like he's going 70. And when he does 70kmh there, could look like 30kmh.This may appear better sense of speed, but is also due to how the camera shakes. In AC we have a fixed camera, even in onboard replays, compared to cameras installed in real life cars which aren't fixed like the ones in game.

The main difference between real life and sitting in a chair looking at a screen, is our view range size, in real life we are actually in the world, but at home we are seeing the world separated from our sensorial and peripheral vision. Triple screens and ultimately a VR (virtual reality) headset can help with sense of speed.

 

[Brandon Wright]

@Brandon Wright have you ever driven in a race track with a medium-high speed car? Or you're basing your experience in AC with driving at city speed limits? Are you basing real life immersion vs home immersion with a monitor sitting on a chair?
Do you know what is actually sense of speed? It is based on the objects that pass by your peripheral vision. The "screen" of real life is huge compared to a fixed monitor on our desk. Maybe virtual devices like oculus rift and vive can fill that immersion gap.

(turn down the volume on this video, just wind noise)
He has other videos with similar content in his channel.

I think in that video he's constantly going over 200kmh, but can look like he's going 70. And when he does 70kmh there, could look like 30kmh.This may appear better sense of speed, but is also due to how the camera shakes. In AC we have a fixed camera, even in onboard replays, compared to cameras installed in real life cars which aren't fixed like the ones in game.

The main difference between real life and sitting in a chair looking at a screen, is our view range size, in real life we are actually in the world, but at home we are seeing the world separated from our sensorial and peripheral vision. Triple screens and ultimately a VR (virtual reality) headset can help with sense of speed.

Yeah, I'm aware of all that. But other sims give a great sense of speed/movement. R3E has an incredible sense of speed to it, going 200mph is a butt-puckering experience and braking for a hairpin from that speed can be nerve wracking. Same with GSCE, driving a stock car in that game feels like I'm really wrestling a 2-ton beast that's trying to leap out of its own skin.

So, it's quite possible to achieve this sense of speed/movement within the confines of our three screens and toy steering wheels, most other sims accomplish it just fine. Yet, for whatever reason, AC doesn't produce this for me. The last time I drove in AC I had just finished thrashing the Aussie V8 in GSCE, my heart was pounding, my head was spinning, and my arms were tired. Then I turned on AC to try the newest update and it was a very ho-hum affair, 200mph felt the same as 50mph, braking from high speed felt no different than pulling to a four-way stop in a street car, it just felt sterile and lifeless.

Like I said, I'm not bashing AC or saying anyone has to agree with my opinion or suggesting that people who love AC are somehow inferior. This is just my observation after many, many hours with the sim, and it just doesn't do it for me. Which is why I don't get involved in discussing the nuances of the tracks and cars like the dev was complaining about. Not trying to turn this into a rant thread, just relating my experience as to the issues in the open letter.

 

[Radu Oros]

You should test these sims with fixed camera movement, because these games are using different things, so if you keep the onboard (driver) view fixed (to the car, not the horizon), then you can better compare.
Also the track and car play a role too, so you should compare with similar content.

If you want a bit better sense of speed in AC, then use g-force effects 1x and camera shake 1x. Then try other values but start from there. But to compare between sims, turn off all these camera movement and shake effects, with similar tracks and cars, and also similar/same fov and seat pos, and game resolution.

I can assure then you're gonna get the same or very similar sense of speed between the sim games, but first turn off all those "tricks", then the comparison is more fair.

 

[Brandon Wright]

You should test these sims with fixed camera movement, because these games are using different things, so if you keep the onboard (driver) view fixed (to the car, not the horizon), then you can better compare.
Also the track and car play a role too, so you should compare with similar content.

If you want a bit better sense of speed in AC, then use g-force effects 1x and camera shake 1x. Then try other values but start from there. But to compare between sims, turn off all these camera movement and shake effects, with similar tracks and cars, and also similar/same fov and seat pos, and game resolution.

I can assure then you're gonna get the same or very similar sense of speed between the sim games, but first turn off all those "tricks", then the comparison is more fair.

It's been a while since I looked, but I believe my g-force effects in AC are around 1.5x. I've turned them up to the max, makes the camera shake more but doesn't really improve the sense of movement for me.

As for the other suggestions, I don't want to make other sims feel like AC, I want AC to feel like all my other sims. I like the sense of movement the other sims provide and I'd love AC if it gave the same sense, but it doesn't. Whatever "tricks" the other sims use, I like them and that's what keeps me coming back to them over AC.

Anyway, that's enough derailing of the thread, which was never my intention.

 

[Radu Oros]

Ok lets say you are using a device like trackir or oculus rift, when the cockpit camera movement is explicitly related to your head movements. Then the sense of speed will be the same in these sims, if you're using the same fov, resolution, seat position, and the same or very similar content.

With this I'm trying to say that if you happen to take a race car on a track in real life that also exists in AC, you won't find many differences between real life and AC sense of speed. With this I'm also saying that AC's sense of speed is real, and the limitations only exist due to our home setup. For example people that are using triple screens setup with the appropriate fov aren't finding problems with sense of speed. So I think is a bit unfair to say that you're disappointed with the game (about the sense of speed subject).. because what comes across is something like "I will play need for speed instead of sim racing because they offer me a better sense of speed".

 

[Cristian Haba]

@Radu Oros you're getting a little cute now, the man said his peice and his view on things, both of which he's more than entitled to and once more he presented them like a level head human unlike some other ppl here who shoot from the hip.

You're a helpful individual when it comes to AC and appreciated in that sense, this constant pestering and praise you're always giving to AC is fine, but not when you start preaching like you just did. This is how we ruin our community, leave it be.