• So long as all your wheels are pointing in roughly the same direction, you should be fine.
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Next Generation Physics (NGP) Plugin

Discussion in 'WorkerBees RBR Plugin Support' started by WorkerBee, Sep 8, 2014.

  1. WorkerBee

    WorkerBee

    Messages:
    248
    Ratings:
    +107
    Direct download links to all the Next Generation Physics (NGP) stuff can be found here:

    NGP Downloads


    Next Generation Physics (NGP) Plugin (PhysicsNG, Version 4.4) for RBR 1.02 SSE
    ===================================================================

    This plugin for Richard Burns Rally enhances RBR's builtin physics.
    Tyres and surface materials are optimized to improve the behaviour of the
    vehicles.
    The vehicle physics are enhanced with new differential types and new
    engines.
    New drive types like rear wheel drive and torque splitting all wheel drive are
    provided.
    Suspension has been improved by progressive bumpstops and fast rebound damping.
    Setup parameters are being validated, fixed and logged if invalid.

    Version History
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    4.4 2016-11-11
    * bug fixes after intensive testing

    4.3 2016-10-22
    * new viscous coupling differential type for all diffs (center/front/rear)
    * optimized differential handling
    * optimized engine idle/stall handling

    4.2 2016-02-20
    * use correct labels in "Differential Torque" page ("preload"), depending
    on the differential type
    * tyres/materials evolution, improved tyres not suitable for
    the surface (e.g. snow on tarmac etc.)
    * changed mass and inertia of some movable objects for more variance

    4.1 2015-12-27
    * fixed power/coast diff issue

    4.0 2015-11-19
    * adjustable linear and progressive bump stops
    * adjustable fast rebound (4-way damping)
    * engine loses some power when some parts are damaged
    * variable shift times
    * better support very lightweight and heavyweight vehicles
    * new dialog to select game language

    3.1 2015-06-05
    * tyres optimized
    * optional single color gear change indicator
    * support for big wheels with radii > 400mm

    3.0 2015-03-14
    * decreased performance of "wrong" tyres (dry on wet etc.)
    * more decrease of performance with tyre wear
    * reduce/remove downforce if front bumper/wing are damaged/broken
    * allow negative downforce
    * maximum clutch torque depending on maximum engine torque
    * fixed weird engine behaviour after collision if damage is non-realistic
    * set helper spring minimum length to 40% of helper spring length
    * input controller filter for handbrake and clutch
    * multi-color gear shift indicator
    * adjustable threshold for playing the skid sound

    2.4 2014-11-25
    * new tyre performance parameter
    * fixed loading of physics in quick rally mode

    2.3 2014-11-15
    * tarmac/snow improved

    2.2 2014-10-12
    * aero kit

    2.1 2014-09-21
    * improved support for online plugins
    * set idle rpm of standard engine

    2014-09-06
    * Initial public NGP 2.0 release.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
    • Like Like x 6
  2. samekyo

    samekyo

    Messages:
    83
    Ratings:
    +32
    Hello! Thank You for Your work on the plugin, I am so happy to get Group B cars for RSRBR with NGP. I have one question- on German forums You wrote "Cause it does not make sense to bother with the steering lock, which specifies how much you can turn the car's front wheels.
    It is up to the user to configure his/her steering wheel to have the "real" feeling he wants to have.
    Some people use game pads or the keyboard." If I understand it right, I should be able to change steering lock by ingame car setup, however I am limited to 544 degrees. This is a huge problem, because if I set up my old DFP to 540 degrees in Logitech profiler, I cannot countersteer fast enough. It basically makes it impossible to drive, I would have to change my wheel seetings in Logitech profiler to much less than 540 (which as You know is realistic setting). Would You consider making it possible to increase that setting in "steering lock" menu? All other RSRBR cars can be set up to max default (i think 794 degrees). One other idea- I don't know about all Group B cars, but I am fairly sure Audi Quattro did not have handbrake avaliable (because of primitive differentials construction). Hope You can help, thanks!
     
  3. WorkerBee

    WorkerBee

    Messages:
    248
    Ratings:
    +107
    Your're welcome !
    Of course NGP is for any plugin or mod ...

    Absolutely right, but I think you have not understood what this really means.

    You can change it, according to the limits imposed by the physic's restrictions.
    And this is ~540°.
    So you are limited to reduce the steering lock, basically.

    And don't forget, it is 540° in either direction, so from lock to lock, it is 1080°, which is 3 steering wheel turns from lock to lock !

    I do not know the DFP settings en detail, but I do use Logi G25, which in the controller setup uses the lock to lock value.
    G25 can do 900° lock to lock, this is my personal setting as well.
    This is roundabout two and a half turns lock to lock, or one and a quarter from center to lock.

    Most of the time I drive RWD cars, which require much more steering and especially counter steering than any other car.
    I don't have any problems with these settings.

    No, as this would mean a turning circle of less than, say, 10 meters, which is ridiculous.

    Yes, and some RSRBR WRC cars accelerate from 0-100 in 2 seconds.
    Just try those 794° on the rally yard, using a camera with which you can watch the car turning from out side.
    Then tell me if THIS looks realistic.

    I do not think that the differentials back in the 80's were primitive, as this stuff indeed does exist a hundred years or so.
    Actually there was no means to unlock the drive train from the rear wheels, that's correct.

    The handbrake feature in the NGP group B cars is a tribute to the modern times, if you put it that way, and to have some more fun driving them.
    Actually I was thinking about disabling the HB, but decided not to.
    And, before you try to argument "that's not realistic!!", if I make these cars realistic like they were in the 80's, you would not reach the finish in every second stage, simply because them cars were quite fragile.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. John Cunningham

    John Cunningham

    Messages:
    985
    Ratings:
    +322
    Truly Mr B you are a legend. Have a great holiday and a happy new year!

    jc
     
  5. samekyo

    samekyo

    Messages:
    83
    Ratings:
    +32
    Thank You for Your answers, I understand Your reasoning. I am going to practice more then;)
     
  6. Kulgera

    Kulgera

    Messages:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Some questions:
    "The vehicle physics are enhanced with mechanical differentials and new engines... and sou on"
    For example WV Polo, the engine is like Lada VFTS not like WRC car, no power no torque. Then differentials locks are unreal, the car makes sometimes sou unexpected move, compared with original.
    And such gravel tires grip was last time used when Marco Allen drive early 80´s..
    Where the data come from?
    We tested one well-known RBR stage with the old (original) physic with N-group Mitsu car. The time was about same as real rally times with real rally cars. Know new Polo with NGP time was 15-20 second slower.. not real..
    Huge work, but Sorry big disappointment.. :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Lamda

    Lamda

    Messages:
    85
    Ratings:
    +4
     
  8. cmtr

    cmtr

    Messages:
    30
    Ratings:
    +5
    I have RSRBR 2016 and the NGP Car pack, but I want to download separate cars from your website. I have done that, and extracted them in the Cars folder in RSRBR, but I don't see them in the game menu. Is this possible? I'm no expert at this, and thankful for any help.
     
  9. porridge

    porridge

    Messages:
    203
    Ratings:
    +33
    You shouldn't use RSRBR installation for this. Everything's possible, of course, but unless you know exactly what you're doing, you'll just run into problems because of the way RSRBR is designed to work. And obviously it's not an ideal situation if you currently have only one installation folder with no "clean" backup.

    (When one installs RBR and the official 1.01 + 1.02 patches, the fanboy trick is to go to the game and do all the desired changes in settings and after that you just duplicate the RBR installation folder. So in case you'd like to use multiple online plugins, all of them would be in their own separate installations.)

    About "not seeing them in the game menu", you're perhaps referring to the car names and preview pics in the quick rally menu but since this is RBR we're talking about, things aren't that easily done, I'm afraid. The car names can be changed by editing RichardBurnsRallySSE.exe with a hex editor (that's quite easy in fairness) and the car preview pics are located in \textures\splash.dat (or so I recall, but a pointless endeavour anyway, if you ask me).
     
  10. cmtr

    cmtr

    Messages:
    30
    Ratings:
    +5
    I think I have a clean install left, but in anycase it's just a 2 min download away.

    Yes, I don't mean it's important but I have to be able to choose the cars, otherwise it's a bit pointless...

    Not quite sure how to do this anyway, I'm learning by doing. :)
     
  11. porridge

    porridge

    Messages:
    203
    Ratings:
    +33
    Well, since I can't remember ever bumping into an English tutorial on how to edit the car name strings, I'll just write one on the spot. I use a software called HxD for this purpose but they're all the same to me so it really shouldn't matter what you end up using. Make backups of RichardBurnsRally_SSE.exe.

    Editing the car names in quick rally menu

    1) First make sure that RichardBurnsRally_SSE.exe isn't read-only. Then open the file with HxD.

    2) Use search (Ctrl+F) to find "subaru". The first instance of "subaru" refers to the full car name string "Subaru Impreza 2000" that in-game is located among the technical specs. Compared to cars.ini the order is reversed, so it's Car07, Car06, Car05... ...Car00.

    And when you scroll down a bit, you'll see the shorter strings like "Subaru '00", "Toyota", "Subaru '03" and so forth. And again, the order is reversed.

    3) Goes without saying that when you edit the strings you can't exceed/go under the original character amount. Just use spacebar to fill the space you don't need, and more importantly, NEVER USE BACKSPACE to correct typos etc.

    4) Save the file when you're done.

    Before: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38969486/quickrally1.png
    After: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38969486/quickrally2.png

    ----------------

    Editing the car names in Tournament plugin (aka the czech plugin) and TrainingDay plugin:

    Just add the extra line in cars.ini.

    Code:
    [Car00]
    FileName = "Cars\xsara\xsara.sgc"
    IniFile = "Cars\xsara\xsara.ini"
    ShaderFile = "Cars\xsara\xsara_shaders.ini"
    ShaderSettings = "Cars\xsara\xsara_shader_settings"
    TexturePath = "Cars\xsara\Textures\"
    CarName = "Citroen Xsara"
    
    ----------------

    Editing the technical specs:

    The specs are found in carinfo.ini but instead of editing and repacking anything in rbz file itself, you should do the following:

    1) In RBR's root directory, create a new folder called "Misc" if you haven't already done so.
    2) Open misc.rbz, drag and drop carinfo.ini into that newly created Misc folder.
    3) Done. The file in Misc folder will now override the original one in rbz pack. The same trick applies to every file in misc.rbz. Remember to turn off "read-only" before editing.
     
  12. ssy6703

    ssy6703

    Messages:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6
    NGP Center of Gravity Too High...Why?

    Original RBR physics
    CenterOfGravity 0.21 ~ 0.22

    Add on Car Ford Focus 2006 physics (Users are to assess Very Best physics)
    CenterOfGravity 0.19

    NGP 2000~2016 WRC Cars physics
    CenterOfGravity
    0.26 ~ 0.35

    NGP is too high...car is easily overturn..
    I played the RBR for 12 years..
    NGP tests that i have for one year...
    I think 2015~2016 WRC Cars
    Center Of Gravity 0.16 ~ 0.18 be suitable

    Sorry.. i don't english
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. WorkerBee

    WorkerBee

    Messages:
    248
    Ratings:
    +107

    Well, there is a flaw in your analysis.
    Obviously you took the CG (center of gravity) value from the LSP files.
    But without knowing the suspension geometry, this information is useless.
    Therefore you can't compare original and NGP CG values at all, as you can't deduce the real CG location from just looking at these values.

    To get the actual CG location it would require the telemetry of the car, which you don't have (but we have it).

    "Very Best physics" ?
    Are you serious ?
    Accelerating from 0-100 in about 2 seconds ... well.
    CG height ridiculously low ...


    I don't agree, as you can only roll the car by hitting an obstacle or a ditch.
    And that is a driving error, not a CG issue.
     
  14. Fergutor

    Fergutor

    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +5
    So, for what I'm reading this is not aimed at making physics better or more realistic, but just different, at taste and whims of the author.
    And if he comes with things like:
    -"but I do use Logi G25, which in the controller setup uses the lock to lock value.
    G25 can do 900° lock to lock, this is my personal setting as well."
    -"The handbrake feature in the NGP group B cars is a tribute to the modern times, if you put it that way, and to have some more fun driving them. Actually I was thinking about disabling the HB, but decided not to."
    -"And, before you try to argument "that's not realistic!!", if I make these cars realistic like they were in the 80's, you would not reach the finish in every second stage, simply because them cars were quite fragile."
    then one has to ask oneself if that same "logic" is applied to his modifications, and after testing this I would say yes.
     
  15. WorkerBee

    WorkerBee

    Messages:
    248
    Ratings:
    +107
    Well, NGP is meant to make the cars as realistic as possible with regard to the real time calculating capabilities of the RBR physics engine.

    NGP is based on static and dynamic (telemetry) data from real rally cars.
    There is no phantasy thingy involved.

    But, as usual, sometimes you have to make compromises depending on the features implemented.
    For example, in the beginning, we did not have viscous coupling differentials, so I had to model some of the famous Group A cars with mechanical diffs, which is "realistic", but not like it was in real life.
    But the latest version of NGP has fixed this issue.

    Nothing wrong about that.
    You may use any setting you want.
    The steering wheel lock (think about keyboard or gamepad) in your controller has absolutely nothing to do with the steering angle of the front wheels. This is a matter of the steering and suspension geometry. And that we have done correctly, based on vehicle data.

    Well, as later we had roundabout +120 cars in NGP, I have decided some time ago that it is better to weaken the handbrake in said cars.
    Almost all Group B cars had a very weak handbrake, so one can keep the car standing still at a slope, but are quite not able to do proper hb turns. Exactly like in real life.

    This comment was related to these cars having technical issues all the time, back in the 80s.
    In no way this was related to the cars behaviour, so this is clearly a misunderstanding.

    So I may ask you what seems wrong.
    Which cars have you tested ?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Fergutor

    Fergutor

    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +5
    First I have to say sorry for the lenght, my english, and my tone. I have to learn to resume!

    If it's not like real life it's fantasy, not realistic. It can be close though and that's "good".

    The first part you said it's quite obvious I don't know why you came up with that. The problem is (and what I meant) that if you use an unrealistic 900º turn in your steering wheel, you'll have a distorted sense of how the car behaves if the geometry of the car is realistic, of course if we're talking about WRC, RRC, S2000, R5 cars and maybe others too that have 540º, all of them. So if you're telling us that you know it is right and it feels right, well, based on that we can't believe it. Assuming of course the wheels of the car turn just like the real thing or rather having the same effect as in real life (540º steering wheel) which is the second part you talk about. So you say that 540º in the "max steering lock" correspond to the real "vehicle data"? And which vehicle you're talking about?

    Now you said before that 540º in the steering lock ratio is counting just one side, so it's 1080º actually! So for 540º it's 270º...but where did you get that it's like this? The only thing I know in the game is like this is the wheel animation.
    Also you said 792º for example unreal because it makes the car make a 10 meter circle.
    So when you said
    are you talking about the steering wheel and the car wheels? The car wheels alone? Or what?
    So, which is the realistic seeting for a WRC car? 270 in game and 540º in your wheel?. I can't test right now but I think that will be very slow (I have G25 and use 540º wheel 540º game and it looks right). And if this is like this why you set 540º as the default? If it's not like this then what that comment means? Do you use 450º in game? So it's 450x2 900º like your wheel?


    ...?... That's what is called "uncorrelation".
    What...? What is exactly like in real life??! This sounds like: "In real life is A, here is Z, exactly like in real life"...

    What...?!
    If the 4wd GrB cars can make a handbrake turn then is not realistic. And what I don't get is that when every developer alive seem to be willing to compromise realism in games for balance, then why not here when actually realism is in favor of balance?! This is: the RWD GrB cars have at least the handbrake advantage...! (the same for RSRBR but I know those guys just don't listen, so, good for you).

    I understood that you were saying that the player is so useless that if you did the cars as fragile as in the 80' he wouldn't reach the end...so ok...
    But you are saying that as the cars in the game don't break that much as in real life then is justified to do this and that unrealistic change in those...see what I said about what we could think of the logic you seem to apply?


    Ok, well first of all I have to tell you that I used the version in RSRBR 2016 for the moment (I tested it some years ago too when they first implemented to it), I will install another RBR soon with RBRTM with up to date versions of the plugin (is that right?) or just your NGP first to test (don't know yet). I used the Impreza WRC 2000 in tarmac, Hyundai i20 WRC, Corsa S1600 and BMW M3 E30 gravel and tarmac, Audi Quattro Sport S1 (this one for few meters in tarmac). Maybe more but I don't remember. It feels like I'm playing rFactor or Race07 the cars understeering unrealistically but then always loosing their rear too easily as if they were not rally cars but ordinary road cars, there's an excessive side rolling in each turn in tarmac especially: if there's a quick left to right turn, you turn left, then right, then left again just because the car lost all lateral balance, I never ever saw a rally car do this and I'm watching onboards right now to be sure it's like I'm saying. There's hardly any weight transfer back to front, you can't force yourself to loose the rear by breaking in gravel like you can easily do in RBR (maybe too easily?). Some are too slow...And much more. The thing is, it doesn't feel right, the result is not right either, watching it doesn't look like when you watch a real rally car (the car doesn't react nor respond like the real thing). In RBR physics they did. Now don't come to me with that "in RSRBR there are cars that go form 0 to 100 in 2 seconds" because that doesn't justify anything nor I agree with those things. There are so many things in RSRBR that piss me off... If I remember correctly the last good RSRBR, for me, was the first 2012 version when they added some 2011 cars but with apparent realistic performance which soon later they increased insanely and also started to change other cars with absurd justifications like changing a car that seemed right because they didn't had the exact data but adding lots of other cars with unrealistic performance and no data for them, behaviour and capabilities because of balance or championship, and things like that.
    There seem to be no developer of anything that doesn't come with "because of: balance, fun, because I don't like it so no one like it, I don't do it so no one do it, who would do it so no one do it, I don't have it, few have, I don't use it, you wouldn't want it, it's better for you, they couldn't, I can't imagine, it's not usual, it's realistically unreal, because something uncorrelated, A for this B for that, the public, the ethics, the past, the future, the target we imagine, it's impossible yeah it's been done before but it's impossible, etc, etc, etc, and bla bla" and so many more crap like this (not the money and time, that's real). There was a rFactor rally championship from spain that had all the cars exactly the same, everything, they only differed in the 3D exterior, when confronted with this they just said: "that's realistic". The cognitive dissonance in this area is...depressing. So maybe I'm expecting this, and being wrong, but judging the results, doesn't seem to be the case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  17. AadHofman

    AadHofman

    Messages:
    142
    Ratings:
    +24
    Are you sure it is not a setup issue? The NGP-cars I have driven have usually had poor default setups.
     
  18. Fergutor

    Fergutor

    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +5
    Well, regarding geometry the creators said this http://sim-control.foroes.org/t1479-debate-sobre-geometrias-de-suspension-en-ngp-physics (the part in yellow) so it's supposedly better by default. I tested first using the usual settings and it wasn't better (that I can remember). Suspension, I didn't touch it yet, so if it's wrong that way then it could be one reason. The same with the rest, torque (which is at 0), tyres, etc.
    So, in some aspects (car stability, driveability), maybe.
     
  19. AadHofman

    AadHofman

    Messages:
    142
    Ratings:
    +24
    In my experience there's a lot to be tweaked with springs and dampers before the car acts like you want it.

    E: ...and not forgetting anti-rollbars.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  20. Fergutor

    Fergutor

    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +5
    I have to test more. But the effects are just too much, the rolling, the lack of weight transer, etc. I just Installed RBRTM and the newst NGP but I will not be able to play maybe in several days.
    With the default RBR physics (RSRBR) I was very good at making setup changes, but I forgot a lot because the last time I played was in early 2015, and now I started again. And with NGP when some things are in "0" as default (or some other weird value) I don't know if I should touch them, why is like that, how much does affect, etc...