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New Laguna Special Motorcycle Controller by IASystems

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by doubledragoncc, Dec 23, 2012.

  1. Hi to everyone again. Ive been away from here trying to get the new designs of my Bike Controllers finished and build the Laguna Special designed for use by EBay Motors and other companies at race meetings for the general public to use. Here is the link for a quick video of the Laguna Special and GP Bikes Alpha 7. More videos of use in other Bike games like SBKX, GP500, MX Simulator, TDU1, TDU2 and a full picture set will follow shortly. The Laguna Special is the exact dimensions of a real Suzuki GSXR and uses an original GSXR seat. Riding it can be a real workout just like on a real bike and makes it so much fun to use, especially in GP Bikes. I am just trying to get it up on all the forums and all the specs will be posted soon.



    Here are a few pics of the MK2 version.

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    BTW thats the Mad Professor, not me, Im not that old yet. Great to be back and I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
    DD

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 7
  2. magicfr

    magicfr
    www.ivory-tower.fr

    That's great !!
    Suggestion: possibility to push,pull the bars for lean front/back input :)
     
  3. Due to the amount of pressure exerted on the bars, unlike a steering wheel, it would be very hard work for the rider to control the bars in such a manner. I have experimented on different movements and what I have now is by far the best for a system like this. I am working on a system using accelerometers and gyros connected to the seat for rider movement control in a program. I am working on a full explanation of the function and theory behind the design over the holidays. I will post asap.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. i am looking forward to using one of these in the future , best of luck
     
  5. Why wait its Xmas treat yourself lol
    Merry Xmas Scott
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Hello to everyone, here is a quick note before you read further. If you don't have an open mind, if you can't look outside of the box, if you think you know it all and have never done it and have a love affair with a gamepad, DON'T READ ON !!!
    So let's get started, a little history behind my thinking my help you understand that this is not my first system, in fact I have lost count on how many I have made. I built my first controller, or rather made my first controller conversion back in 1983 for a bike racing game on a Commodore 64 with an Atari joystick, remember the old square thing with a stick and 2 buttons?, well you might not be as old as me, but that was high tech in its time. I've built so many steering system starting with the old bungee cord for centering you name it, ive basically done it. The only thing I have never gotten into is FFB (Force Feed Back) , as it has a cost factor to it.
    Onto basic concepts. First and foremost, have you ever ridden a motorbike? If you have then you know the physics involved in riding down the road and taking a corner, if you have not ridden then you wont know!!! In order to build a system that EVERYONE can use and not just those that have ridden you have to take that into account, plus, how old are you? is everyone that will use this system the same age with the same knowledge? NO!!! To design a system that will allow the real rider to enjoy and have his fun, it must also be useable by a 12 year old who has never ridden!!! The original prototype was tested with a 7 year old girl who had never ridden a bicycle and she learned the basics in riding within half an hour. Our systems are as much for the real racer as a learner. My son died on his bike (December 5th 2005 RIP Koni), aged 18 after he hit an oil patch. He was on a Ducati and knew how to ride it, but maybe he might have had more of a chance if he had played around on a good bike game or simulation and learnt how to react a bit quicker in a certain situation, I will never know, but I intend to give the chance to everyone, to maybe learn from scratch, or learn just a little bit more in the safety of the home. I am a fanatic and love my simulations, but have ridden for over 36 years ( 7 as a professional medical courier ) and still don't know it all.
    ON THE ROAD VERSUS IN A ROOM
    To really understand the reality of designing a control system for use on a computer thats sitting stationary in a room, you need to understand what physics are involved in the real world. In a room the only force of nature you really have while sitting still is gravity, in the real world when you ride you can add momentum, velocity, centrifugal, friction, drag, thrust and more, I am not a scientist, but in a room, all other physics are lost, they don't exist and therefore you have to practically leave them out of the equation in the design of a static control system. If you have $10,000 no problem I can build you a system to simulate movement, but I am talking about a system for everyone.
    PROGRAM CODING AND REAL MOVEMENT
    This is a very important point. Today's programmers have more controllers than ever to write code to allow them to integrate with a program, BUT, they still mainly program for silly gamepads when it comes to bike games and simulations, WTF!!! they can code for ALL kinds of input but DONT!!! So now we have a game/sim that is coded to the movement of a little joystick that moves 10mm in one direction at the most, measure the movement of a bike thats standing straight while going in a straight line, you come to a curve and crank the bike over, it's about 600mm of movement measured from the top of the headstem, as you go through the curve.
    Using a gamepad means very quick movement, but takes away the ability for small control movements, no sensitivity. There are so many out there that I have seen ride with a keyboard or gamepad and are amazing, but they spend their whole life and maybe sleep with the dang thing, it's not natural. Programs are simply coded wrong (GPBikes and MX Simulator excluded), even in these modern times. So to the real point, if you want to steer a bike with a controller as you would on a real bike, you would be steering through a near horizontal axis, depending on the rake of the headstem, and would be giving counter-steering pressure on the handlebars, meaning, you put pressure on the right side of the bars to go left, how much? 10mm, 15mm in movement if that, well if you only use a gamepad with a joystick that is 10mm high, thats fine, but now do it with a set of real handlebars, you would have an over sensitive scenario due to program coding and to be honest you can't do it, it's so sensitive you just could not ride. It is possible using loadcells to replicate pressure, but gets expensive and is boring as there is practically no movement while riding in a game/sim, I know, I tried it and its BORING. Does a rider just sit upright? NO!!! A rider leans a bike with the body, weight transition is a natural movement while riding, if you ride, think about it, as you counter-steer, you automatically lean the top of your body into the curve, your foot on that side is pressing against the foot peg, now try to replicate that with 10mm of movement on a gamepad, it sucks. With all these points and after testing so many ways to replicate all of these points into steering design, the southern-pendulum system is the only way you can combine, lean, sensitivity and feeling in one axis. Many who have simply looked at any of the videos I have made, have done just that, looked, you need to look, study and think. When I ride on my systems and come to a right curve, I push left with my right arm, I lean with the bars to the right and use my body weight to move the bars, not my arms. I pivot the top of my body from the bottom of my spine, as I would on a real bike. If I put the pivot point of the handlebars in the center of the yolk I would not be moving naturally, my wrists would have to twist in an unnatural angle. Using the southern-pendulum system, I keep my wrists in a natural riding position. At the end of the day, that means all of you that critic my system for not being counter-steering have got it wrong.
    SYSTEM CONTROLS AND BUTTONS
    IASystems controllers have full high resolution analog controls for:
    Steering
    Throttle
    Front Brake
    Rear Brake
    Clutch

    Our motherboard allows an additional 3 analog axis which on certain systems are used for body movement, but can be customized to the customers wishes. We can provide up to 32 digital switches/buttons and an 8 position POV Hat. IASystems controllers connect by USB cable and need no additional software with most programs. Unfortunately, every game made by Milestone/Blackbean, which are the SBK and MotoGP Series are programmed only for silly gamepads need to have a Joy2Key file and XBox360 file set placed in the game folder, these are supplied and take only a few minutes to transfer from the included DVD. Potentiometers for braking can be replaced with loadcells but at substantial cost as this is still in testing and involves far more work. We are also moving onto using Accelerometers and Gyros for rider control in the near future.






    SYSTEM PHYSICAL DESIGNS

    IASystems has no limitations on the physical design of a system. All systems are hand built and can be custom designed and built to your specifications. IASystems controllers are not toys, every system is designed to take the punishment a real bike would get on the road in real life. Unlike a car steering wheel, handlebars receive up to 200 times the physical forces placed upon them. Whether your 100lb or 400lb the IASystems controllers are made to take it. IASystems can also offer a system with full fairing, gas tank, tail piece from Sharkskins for certain models, or if you send us yours we will fabricate all mounting brackets.


    IF YOU WANT IT WE CAN BUILD IT


    I hope this helps you all understand where IASystems is coming from. Our goal is to change the motorcycle gaming/ simulation world into an equal of the car gaming/simulation world. This means offering a controller that people want and getting the software houses to start writing code for real
    controls and not toys. We can only do this with your support. It is our time now, so let's do it

    "Keep it sunny side up"

    Allan J P Beaton
     
  7. I´m eagerly waiting for something similar to what you found in arcade halls where you basically had half a motorcycle body that you leaned on :)

    Bikes are just a another level of what´s needed to properly simulate it.

    I also used to love a game, was the best bike game i ever tried (long time ago)
    It wasn´t a Moto GP title but i think it said GP in the title,
    Think they had it on PS1

    Edit: found it, Moto Racer 2 - epic game :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. hampus, something similar to the motogp namco cabinet with gears control, foot rear brake with actuators as simconmotion adapted to bikes and ffb in handlebar that would be de dreamy motorbike setup i think
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. another beautiful feature would be some kind of kinect registering your physical movement and translating it into the game where your weight goes etc... ohh gosh why i only have ideas and no talent :D shiiiiit!!! :p
     
  10. 3ller keep going guy, ideas are a start. Kinect is a good idea but I want to have it so my system covers it all. I am working on using Gyros and Accelerometers to work for steering and rider movement at the moment.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Hi guys n gals, not sure if ladies are here but good to be polite. I am getting a lot of

    feedback about my systems and there is some points that are better for me to know so I can

    try and make a system you can all afford. Please tell me what you

    A: Can afford
    B: Are willing to pay
    C: The minimum control specs you want.

    I will have to speak to my backer, but I am personally prepared to take installments, as

    long as my parts costs are covered to start with.

    Well I think this is the best way to go so let me know guys n gals.

    DD
     
  12. Your little poll is a bit limiting, I'm not sure you're getting results which will make sense really.

    The answers people give are very dependant on their motivation or what their expectation is for the product you are offering.

    9 out of 10 will probably stay under a 1000 dollars pounds or euros, since for most that is the phsycological price I guess where most hobbies start to get quite serious.

    Anything below that 1000, you can't do a proper motion rig for bikes. Though, in my opinion, for motorcycles it's almost a waste not having it in there, if you want to control the bike as you would in real life (if I can trust the opinions of people who actually drive motorcycles ;) ).

    If you're going for a the 'low tech' approach, there are cheap racing rigs for 800 dollars for example.. But are they worth it.. yours will take more r&d and custom parts, since the rig is the controller.

    All in all, another question would maybe be, is it worth bothering, if there is a limited source for motorcycle sims, and very limited feel without motion included.

    (doing it well mechanically means quite a big-ass and expensive unit:
    http://www.saferider-eu.org/index.php?id=5 )
     
  13. no way you too, i use to play this many many years ago and there was another one to which i played on the old Sega :)

    oh that game is bringing back the memories.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Yea that game was awesome :) There´s one track i loved which had a tunnel.
    Looked like regular roads and pretty much flat out all the way,
    Used to play split screen for hours with a friend :)

    Found it on Moto Racer 1, just brilliant track :) think it´s on Racer 2 as well,

     
  15. museumsteve

    museumsteve
    Premium Member

    I've ridden bikes for 25years (not so much these days) and would welcome somekind of setup. I have a racing setup with 2dof motion which is awesome..but I think what adds as much 'immersion' as the motio is tactile feedback. SimVibe is an amazing piece of software
    On a bike rig you could easily have things like road noise(wind effect), gear change etc on tacile units and it would immediately get the bike from being just a 'stand' IMO. I didn't notice anyone mention tactile, if they did I apologise ;)
     
  16. A:Not a lot
    B:For a decent bike controller?
    More than I can probably afford!

    C:So that everything necessary to play GPBikes falls naturally to hand with a couple of spare program-able buttons so that I needn't touch the keyboard or mouse again before leaving the game...
    Thanks for your time & efforts, I look forward to being a customer some day.

    [edit]Thought of an extra & probably un-thought-of option for 'C'- a rear brake auxiliary lever mounted on the left H/bar much like the IOM TT guys use for when the right foot isn't an option.....
     
  17. RC45

    RC45
    Premium Member

    I really could not tell from the opening schpiel if you are an actual motorcycle rider.

    Be that as it may - on a tandem wheeled vehicle with a steering stem, you push left to go left.

    As much as you try explain away why you don't want to make a counter steering based system, to attract the real bike riders you will need to have a counter steering based system.

    Period.

    Now on to your poll:

    A: Can afford
    B: Are willing to pay
    C: The minimum control specs you want.
    A: We are already paying close to $1000 for a decent car sim setup - $500 to $600 for the wheel, pedals & shifter andanything from $300 to $600 for the seat/dash setup. Not everyone can afford this amount - but that doesn't mean that is too expensive.

    B: $1000

    C: Be based on counter steering and allowing me to lean off the motorcycle and allow me to press on the pegs as a part control mechanism.

    The bottom line is that to make the exercise worthwhile it needs to be done properly or you will not attract the volume of sales from those of us willing and able to spend the money.

    Oh, and one final suggestion - drop the attitude, after all you are inviting people to comment by promoting something you plan on selling.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Ive been playing on or around bikes & cars all my life & read quite a bit about them both...
    I looked at what you have & keep reading about folks wanting 'proper' 'counter steering' & keep falling back to thinking about Tony Foale's book about Motorcycle Chassis design...
    (He actually devoted a chapter to counter steering as well as another to the follow-up experiments he made on that & sterring head angles.....)
    Have you considered mimicking the pivot points of the (in this case GSXR) steering angle, some forks connected to a gyroscope which would be pivoted for tilt at the gyro (wheels) axle height but pivoted for swivel (left & right 'turn') at the trail point.
    Then for the body work possibly another gyro' in a similar plane to the first connected directly to the body (to emulate engine gyroscopic inertia) which would be pivoted (I'd imagine) just above the foot rests but most likely with the foot rests mounted so that they don't move...
    The gyro's would be for a 'form' of force 'feedback' (for want of a better term) offering resistance to movements & with some self stabilizing atributes...
    My thought is that once these gyro's are working then the front-ends steering angle & trail should take care of most of the steering attributes that most are seeking & then it would 'just' be a matter of being able to log the angles from 0.0.0 of each data gathering point & the pressure required to work against the gyro's to achieve those angles....
    If you've already been down this road then please disregard as these were just some musings that kept me awake & pondering last night...
    Some thoughts on such a set-up would be nice to hear though as I am without funds or workshop to be experimenting with such systems...
    Good onya for what your trying to do & best of luck to you....

    PS, I'd be interested in sampling/purchasing the system you've already built anyway!
     
  19. Hi RC and Lee. Thanks for the comments guys. Firstly to RC, I cant see why you think I have an attitude? if it comes across that way, sorry, but it is just my wording may not be correct for everyone.Oh but try yours, "if you are an actual motorcycle rider." I have ridden over 36 years, 7 as a professional medical courier, was workshop manager, tech for Suzuki in Stuttgart, Germany and worked with Speedproducts, the same for Honda in UK and design/fabricate custom Harleys, (I owned Diablos UK) from the ground up including the frames. Just thought some history is always good lol.

    Lee, I am experimenting with gyros and accelerometers too, just trying to get the basics right first, which brings us back to RC45 and steering. All other controls are as per a real motorcycle, only the steering is a pain to replicate the real world while siting stationary. It is a movement in real life that actually requires more than one input to get right if your sitting in a room. I am not doing a motion system yet as cost is already a problem with a static system. I think most people forget there is only certain programs on the market right now and those are what I have to work with as far as their programming goes. Its all well and good having so many ideas and even a way to do them if you have no way to implicate them into a game/sim because there is only one simple coded input available. I am fully aware of how it appears in a video, but you have to sit on one of my systems and ride with it, I have left a system with a friend at his shop for a week, he only builds race bikes and all his customers hit the track as often as they can, they were all astounded at the way it felt and it was hard to pry the dang system away lol.
    RC45, why do you say "As much as you try explain away why you don't want to make a counter steering based system, to attract the real bike riders you will need to have a counter steering based system. Period."?
    I never said that, Period. If you look at the video, it is actually counter-steering, push left to go right, it just LOOKS as if its not. It would be great to have the steering as on a real bike but because the modern game/sim coding is written as it is, with such minimal amount of movement as on a real bike would mean your input from movement of the bars to an electronic signal the program receives, would make the input over sensitive and you would be flopping from left to right all day long. Load cells might work, but dont allow for quickness of response in curves, due to the fact you have to have a way to counteract the pressure from a person leaning on the bars, thats quite some force for a spring or damper to contend with. For now I am trying to make something for everyone, not just the purists RC, you have to think of learners, novices, teenagers, cost, etc.

    I can only do my best and hope someday to make everyone happy, not just a few. Well guys great chating with you keep the thoughts coming.

    Happy New Year to you all.
     
  20. RC45

    RC45
    Premium Member

    Whether you have been 36 or 63 years, it does not mean you have been doing it right.

    If this tool/toy/controller is going to have ANY hope of being of use for a novice, then it will need to be push LEFT to go LEFT.

    The reason novice (and longtime) riders get hurt as they run into the car/pole/phone box/bus they have seen and are trying avoid is because they do push RIGHT as they think they are going to go left and miss the obstacle - however they end up going RIGHT and steer directly into the object they where hoping to avoid.

    Creating a system that requires OPPOSITE actions to achieve the directional change a REAL bike needs will not be a useful learning tool - period.

    Push LEFT to go LEFT.

    Any controller not built around that action is a pointless gimmick.

    If you ever tried to sell this controller as a training aid I would go so far as to suggest you would be liable for the injuries sustained by the person that learned with your system then steered into the bus they saw - as they hopelessly pushed RIGHT thinking they would go LEFT.

    You controller is a great toy but until it requires the correct input it is no simulation controller.

    My riding credentials are a lot less colourful than yours - they are however correct: