My thoughts about the forum and the community

[BhZ]

Lately i've been particularly active on this forum and i took part to many discussions. One in particular got my attention. It was about the fact that fast drivers don't help rookies during practice. I think it's true, but at the same time i think many rookies don't even ask. I raced a lot recently on RD and i think i remember just one question in something like 8 races: "what wings are you guys running?". That was the only question that someone asked during practice. This got me thinking about the community and the forum and i noticed that the majority of the posts here on RD are about peripheral issues, graphical issues, news, random stuff. Now, in a simracing forum i'd expect more questions about cars, tracks, driving tecnique...Asking question in a 30 minutes practice just before the race won't make you a better driver for the simple reason that if you are not already a great driver, 30 minutes are barely enough to stay on track and possibly find good braking points. What will make you a better driver is to ask question on the forum, get an answer to it and apply in an offline session what you just learned until it becomes natural.
Everyone is free to do whatever he wants and race every night with a different car in a different track, but my advice is to take at least half of the days you'd race to just choose a car and a track and practice. Push the car, be curious about where is the limit of it. That is the only way to actually improve. Racing every day doesn't give you the time to get confidence with a car or a track, so you will improve, but at a much slower speed and you won't have time to work on the setup, because it's useless to work on the setup if you still have to find the limit of the car.
So my request is as follows: Ask about anything related to a car or track here on the forum, even if it's a stupid question, there are people here ready to help.
I also have a suggestion for the RD staff: In order to improve the quality of racing on RD, it would be cool in my opinion to have nights where instead of racing, you guys set up a server with a car and a track (possibly a combo that will be used in the next RD event) where people can sign up (like in a normal race) and practice for a couple of hours. So you have some sort of "practice event" where people willing to improve can learn more and where hopefully some of the fast guys (which usually practice a lot) will come as well and help.
Just to be sure, since english is not my first language, i want to specify that this is just my opinion and advice to try to improve the quality of driving. Let me know what are your thoughts about it and if you have other ideas that could make this forum a better place.

 

[Kek700]

you could ask for everyone concerned to give a very brief outline of what they expect from rookie class racing.
sum it all up, and try to apply what is rational and not apply that which is impractical.

 

[BhZ]

you could ask for everyone concerned to give a very brief outline of what they expect from rookie class racing.
sum it all up, and try to apply what is rational and not apply that which is impractical.

What exactly would be impractical about "ask question on the forum, look for tips, have some practice"?
What i see is a lot of people that want things easy and have the courage to blame the fast drivers for not helping and for wanting to win the race because that would spoil the fun...

 

[Brandon Wright]

Sharing setups is not that helpfull. I started learning about setups the moment i stopped using others setup and started looking for info on how to do it on my own.

Yes and no. Just last night I was racing the TT club race and was having a bit of trouble with it, one of the other guys shared his tune and suddenly I was doing the same times he was and could really muscle the car around. Sometimes his setups don't work with my driving style, but sometimes they do. But my main point was that in our group people are more than happy to share stuff like this, even if nobody asks. Whether or not the setup is effective wasn't what I was getting at.

Many people need tips on braking, using the track to your advantage, using the whole width of the track, setups in general, use of the pedals and the wheel. That's not the kind of knowledge you can share in 1 hour.

This is also something that happens in our group, faster guys jumping onboard with someone who's struggling and giving them tips on how to attack the track better. And usually within a few laps they've shaved quite a bit of time off their lap and improved their consistency. Obviously you could spend weeks with somebody on this topic, but even just 10-15 minutes is usually enough to make a marked improvement and plant the seeds for them to keep working on things on their own. The first time @Bobby Pennington raced with us it was in the Abarth 500 AC at Brands Indy and he was really struggling, Wiz and I watched his onboards and gave him a few tips and next thing we knew he was able to keep right up with us and has continued to improve.

That's why i think that people should start worry about their driving before the actually get on track (obviously if they have time, but then again, who doesn't have time to ask for some tips on a forum?).

Agree, but like you said not everyone has the time to do that. I almost always show up to a club race having never driven the combo before, I just jump in and get it figured out. I do agree it would be nice if there was an area in the Clubs section where we could discuss driving tips and such so there's a central resource for people to ask questions and find answers relating to online racing.

And like I said, I'm not trying to argue and I do agree with most of your points. It's just the claim in the OP about fast guys never helping the slower guys on the server is not always true because our group is very helpful and informative and talkative so I just don't want people thinking that all RD Club races are as you described. Some are, for sure I've been in servers where hardly a word is said the whole session, but for the last several months in the US races there's rarely a moment where we aren't chit-chatting or sharing setup tips or giving driving advice. Everything else I agree with, I just wanted to clarify that one topic and probably used way too many words to do it.

What exactly would be impractical about "ask question on the forum, look for tips, have some practice"?

He wasn't saying asking questions on the forum would be impractical, he was referring to what people expect from rookie class racing and to discard expectations that would be impractical from a rookie class.

 

[BhZ]

fast guys never helping the slower guys on the server

We've been accused some days ago about it in the EU server. Truth is no one asked anything...
When i say "sharing a setup is useless" what i mean is that you are not learning anything. Being able to make a setup and you driving skills are what define a driver. If i share my setup, you may get faster but you'll never get better. There will never be a point were your knowledge will be usefull to me. It should be a give and take, except that it's just a "give otherwise i will blame you on the forum". That doesn't look fair. A setup is a fundamental part in racing, especially in simracing since we are both race engineers and drivers. I don't like to share my setup because i worked on it, i spent time to be more competitive. I'm sure many do not have time to work on it because they have other things to do, but i see people joining every single race every day. That means that they are just lazy and refuse to try and learn and prefere to do things the easy way. Their way of thinking is "let's have fun, i can just take the setup from someone else and avoid the boring part"
I'm more than happy to help someone learn and i think i've already demonstrated it in other posts but i will do so with those i think are worth. Afterall, i'm not obliged to do help anyone, it's just something i can do if i want to.

 

[Kek700]

I do not mind there being fast guys on the circuit, infact i prefer it. In the sever i know i can ask a question and get it answered. I often listen to the banter and conversations about setup's etc etc. I do not want to know what someones setup exacty is, just occasionally a question on a specific part of setup or driving.
I am reasonably sure this is the general feeling of most people in the rookie class. I like the 8 second differential it gives more interesting racing for everyone. Usually the fast guys have disappeared anyway
and 30 minutes almost eliminates much lapping from their point of veiw.
The only complainant i have is track etiquette , thats it.

 

[Brandon Wright]

We've been accused some days ago about it in the EU server. Truth is no one asked anything...

Oh, ok. I have no idea what goes on in the EU servers but it sounds like it's very different from the US side.

When i say "sharing a setup is useless" what i mean is that you are not learning anything. Being able to make a setup and you driving skills are what define a driver. If i share my setup, you may get faster but you'll never get better.

Depends on what your goal is I guess. Club races are supposed to be fun, casual races and a lot of the guys show up just because they want some quick fun. Sure, just giving someone a setup isn't going to teach them how to tune (give a man a fish...) but it might allow them to have more fun in the race which will encourage people to come back for more. In the short amount of time we have during a race session that's about the best we can offer.

There will never be a point were your knowledge will be usefull to me. It should be a give and take, except that it's just a "give otherwise i will blame you on the forum". That doesn't look fair. A setup is a fundamental part in racing, especially in simracing since we are both race engineers and drivers. I don't like to share my setup because i worked on it, i spent time to be more competitive.

I'd like to think my knowledge has been helpful to people, I've had several people tell me it's been helpful. But obviously my knowledge wouldn't be helpful to someone more experienced/knowledgeable than me. I'm not sure what a rookie can "give" to someone that's helping them learn though, since by definition they have everything to learn and nothing to offer so I'm not sure what you expect them to give in return? I can't comment on the blame thing because I've never encountered that. I'm starting to think I've entirely misinterpreted the points you were trying to make all along. At the very least I think it's clear we've had very different experiences in the RD races.

I'm sure many do not have time to work on it because they have other things to do, but i see people joining every single race every day. That means that they are just lazy and refuse to try and learn and prefere to do things the easy way. Their way of thinking is "let's have fun, i can just take the setup from someone else and avoid the boring part"

Well, that's pretty much what the club races are for? Casual, no-stress racing where fun is more important than competition. That's why I participate in them regularly, because I can just jump in and have fun without having to worry about doing hours of practice and tuning like one would do for a league. Sure, I'm lazy, most of the times I run the default setups (other than tire pressures) but more times than not I'm right up with the front of the pack, occasionally winning a race, and I often have the best consistency of the whole group so I don't see a problem with that approach, and as far as I'm aware none of the guys I race with have a problem with my approach (I think most approach it the same way).

 

[Andy_J]

I don't like to share my setup because i worked on it, i spent time to be more competitive. I'm sure many do not have time to work on it because they have other things to do, but i see people joining every single race every day. That means that they are just lazy and refuse to try and learn and prefere to do things the easy way. Their way of thinking is "let's have fun, i can just take the setup from someone else and avoid the boring part"

I'd agree with you for league racing but..............
After racing in various club events at RD over the years, you are the first so called fast guy that has ever stated that. In AMS the top fast guys would even send you their setup via the ingame facility, they didn't mind at all. Just because someone else does not have the time to practice and or even understand setups, it's not their fault.
I'm sorry to say BHZ but you are the type of guy that I personally would not like to race with in Club racing. What harm does sharing your setup do to you? Don't you want some competition?
I hope you are not one those guys that join Rookie events just so they can shine and lap the slow guys and take easy wins. Sharing your setups would be better and guess what, it might make you feel good too.

 

[BhZ]

After racing in various club events at RD over the years, you are the first so called fast guy that has ever stated that. In AMS the top fast guys would even send you their setup via the ingame facility, they didn't mind at all. Just because someone else does not have the time to practice and or even understand setups, it's not their fault.
I'm sorry to say BHZ but you are the type of guy that I personally would not like to race with in Club racing. What harm does sharing your setup do to you? Don't you want some competition?
You seriously wouldn't want to be one those guys that join Rookie events just so they can shine and lap slow guys. So sharing your setups would be better and guess what, it might make you feel good too.

I shared my setup before. The fact that i don't like to do so doesn't mean i don't do it. On the other hand your previous answers have been really constructive...

 

[BhZ]

You guys say that sharing a setup will help making the race more interesting and competitive. Isn't that even better if people are able to learn how to setup a car and share that knowledge so that everyone get something? Those who can't make a setup by themself won't be as fast as us with our setup, so they won't make the thing more interesting for us. There are around 7-8 guys on RD that i've met that can be called "fast guys". If only one of them is signed up for a race, he will get bored because he has no competition. The only way to get more competition for us is to train people on how to drive, how to make a setup on their own and eventually become even better than us so that we can learn something from them as well. Sharing a setup is non-productive for us, which is why i don't like to share it and afaik, i have the right to believe so. Don't get me wrong though, i will always try to be the most polite possible and if i can help, i will but the way i want to.

 

[Brandon Wright]

You guys say that sharing a setup will help making the race more interesting and competitive.

I never intended to make that point, I only said sharing a setup with someone who's struggling can make the race more enjoyable which doesn't necessarily mean more competitive. We don't have a lot of time in the club session to give detailed advice, but if we can give him a quick setup that will tame the oversteer he's fighting and allows him to keep up with some of the other guys and have fun, then why wouldn't we do that? If he wants/needs more advice then he can hit up the forum the next morning with questions.

For me the club races are simply for fun and not for hardcore competition. For example, last night there were only a few of us so any time someone crashed or had a big off the rest of us would wait up and regroup so we could all be in a pack and race together. I don't think we ever got more than three consecutive laps in without having a slow-down, but man we had a ton of fun!!

Isn't that even better if people are able to learn how to setup a car and share that knowledge so that everyone get something? Those who can't make a setup by themself won't be as fast as us with our setup, so they won't make the thing more interesting for us. There are around 7-8 guys on RD that i've met that can be called "fast guys". If only one of them is signed up for a race, he will get bored because he has no competition. The only way to get more competition for us is to train people on how to drive, how to make a setup on their own and eventually become even better than us so that we can learn something from them as well. Sharing a setup is non-productive for us, which is why i don't like to share it and afaik, i have the right to believe so.

Of course that would be better and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise (I certainly am not), but we don't have enough time to do that in a club race session. So the short-term solution is to provide quick, on the spot training or setup advice. I mean, if a guy is in the server with us and struggling and asks for help/advice we can't exactly stop the show and spend a couple hours with him teaching him the nuances of driving and setups, nor should we tell him "tough cookies dude, you should have learned that before you came here". We just have to come up with something on the fly which usually consists of watching their lap and giving advice or giving them a quick setup. It's a temporary solution that helps them get through that one race but hopefully they have fun, which will encourage them to come back, which will hopefully encourage them to seek out some further training/help/advice so they're better prepared for the next race.

 

[Bobby Pennington]

I see I'll have a lot of reading when I get home. Looks interesting.

 

[BhZ]

Of course that would be better and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise (I certainly am not), but we don't have enough time to do that in a club race session. So the short-term solution is to provide quick, on the spot training or setup advice. I mean, if a guy is in the server with us and struggling and asks for help/advice we can't exactly stop the show and spend a couple hours with him teaching him the nuances of driving and setups, nor should we tell him "tough cookies dude, you should have learned that before you came here". We just have to come up with something on the fly which usually consists of watching their lap and giving advice or giving them a quick setup. It's a temporary solution that helps them get through that one race but hopefully they have fun, which will encourage them to come back, which will hopefully encourage them to seek out some further training/help/advice so they're better prepared for the next race.

I agree on this, i've never said that we should interrupt the race because someone has to learn. But let's say someone race every week in the gt3 event. You race the first time, you choose a car and you find yourself with a clear problem (oversteer, understeer, top speed, a particular turn). You do your race, the next day create a post where you explain what you experienced and we give you the information you need. You will then use those in the next race, see what change in the car and repeat the process...This will help you getting better and more indipendent. On the other hand, if i give you a setup, you won't learn anything.

 

[Mr Deap]

I'm not a premium member, but car setup does a lot on race car & open wheel in AC(especially on Spa & Monza). If you have the best setup you win regardless of your driving skill(race cars are kind of too forgiving). The biggest issue is finding how to setup race cars. I'm not a race fanatic & simply a gamer. I had absolutely no clue about air temp affected the tyre & how PSI affected the grip. Don't start with the things about quitting playing sim game, because that's what is mostly not explained at all in nearly all the setup guide.

After you got a bunch of elitism to improve driving when it's not needed & giving tons of bad advice including the setup guide that only people who know about 99% of the motorsport work that is too hard to understand or doesn't make much sense with flow chart.

Sometime you get nice advice, but it's quite rare.

 

[Kenny Paton]

Slightly off topic but might help.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/523220/Virtual_Race_Car_Engineer_2017/
And there is a demo.
On topic, never yet in any of our rookie or regular club events have I came across anybody not happy to share tips, advice and setups.
The point has been made before but I'm happy to repeat it, club racing is for everyone at all levels with as few barriers as possible to entry and enjoyment.

 

[Brandon Wright]

I agree on this, i've never said that we should interrupt the race because someone has to learn. But let's say someone race every week in the gt3 event. You race the first time, you choose a car and you find yourself with a clear problem (oversteer, understeer, top speed, a particular turn). You do your race, the next day create a post where you explain what you experienced and we give you the information you need. You will then use those in the next race, see what change in the car and repeat the process...This will help you getting better and more indipendent. On the other hand, if i give you a setup, you won't learn anything.

Yep, I agree mostly. I don't see any harm in giving him some setup tips to help him through that one race though, it helps him to do better in the race which means he probably has more fun, he feels engaged with the group, more confident in his performance, and all those things encourage him to keep coming back for more. Hopefully he will then seek out guidance so he can figure out the setup stuff for himself. I do agree that if he just keeps relying on other people to help him with a setup then he's never going to learn for himself. But my main concern is that he keeps coming back to the club races because we need all the regulars we can get, so if he never feels comfortable with tuning and just keeps using the setup he was given I'm totally ok with that if it means he keeps coming back to the races. We need to get people hooked on club racing first, then worry about making them a better driver (IMO, of course), but it would be nice if there was an area where general tuning tips and driving advice could be discussed in a centralized area because right now there isn't really a place for that here.

Keep in mind I was a club host here for a while (and for many years before that) so I'm just programmed to focus on getting people to attend the races, and if giving someone a setup encourages them to attend and become a regular then I'm all for it. But I'm also all for helping them to better themselves too. But this is also coming from someone who's been sim racing in one shape or form for nearly two decades and is still useless at tuning, I mainly drive stock setups or get setups from a friend. But none of that factored into the points I was making because as I said my main concern is always to get people to show up to the race, whether they're using the stock setup, a borrowed setup, or their own setup doesn't concern me much as long as they're showing up to the races.

 

[BhZ]

I'm not a premium member, but car setup does a lot on race car & open wheel in AC(especially on Spa & Monza). If you have the best setup you win regardless of your driving skill(race cars are kind of too forgiving). The biggest issue is finding how to setup race cars. I'm not a race fanatic & simply a gamer. I had absolutely no clue about air temp affected the tyre & how PSI affected the grip. Don't start with the things about quitting playing sim game, because that's what is mostly not explained at all in nearly all the setup guide.

After you got a bunch of elitism to improve driving when it's not needed & giving tons of bad advice including the setup guide that only people who know about 99% of the motorsport work that is too hard to understand or doesn't make much sense with flow chart.

Sometime you get nice advice, but it's quite rare.

First of all, a setup is just a little part. Anyone with a good amount of hours on a sim will never lose to a rookie with a good setup. Second of all, when i started playing ac i knew nothing about cars, so that's not needed to make a good setup. The guides are, in my opinion, way too simplified and they don't help much, which is why people should ask question instead of saying "i cant make a setup" because it just require to try and get a feeling of what happens.

 

[BhZ]

Yep, I agree mostly. I don't see any harm in giving him some setup tips to help him through that one race though, it helps him to do better in the race which means he probably has more fun, he feels engaged with the group, more confident in his performance, and all those things encourage him to keep coming back for more. Hopefully he will then seek out guidance so he can figure out the setup stuff for himself. I do agree that if he just keeps relying on other people to help him with a setup then he's never going to learn for himself. But my main concern is that he keeps coming back to the club races because we need all the regulars we can get, so if he never feels comfortable with tuning and just keeps using the setup he was given I'm totally ok with that if it means he keeps coming back to the races. We need to get people hooked on club racing first, then worry about making them a better driver (IMO, of course), but it would be nice if there was an area where general tuning tips and driving advice could be discussed in a centralized area because right now there isn't really a place for that here.

Keep in mind I was a club host here for a while (and for many years before that) so I'm just programmed to focus on getting people to attend the races, and if giving someone a setup encourages them to attend and become a regular then I'm all for it. But I'm also all for helping them to better themselves too. But this is also coming from someone who's been sim racing in one shape or form for nearly two decades and is still useless at tuning, I mainly drive stock setups or get setups from a friend. But none of that factored into the points I was making because as I said my main concern is always to get people to show up to the race, whether they're using the stock setup, a borrowed setup, or their own setup doesn't concern me much as long as they're showing up to the races.

I paid 10 euros to race, nothing more. I've already said that it's hard for me to understand people speaking in english, especially during an event with the sound of an engine, more people talking at the same time... What i mean is that it's not my job to find new drivers. Obviously if someone asks "should i get premium" i will say yes because it's worth it, but once i get in a race event (not rookie event) my goal will be to win the race and i will focus 100% on my car and my driving style because i have to adapt to the different conditions present in the server. If you want my setup you ask it before the event and i will send it to you like i did with @Bobby Pennington in the last event. To me it's about racing. A race is a competition and once it starts, as we use to say in italy about food, "i have no friends until it ends". This doesn't mean i won't be friendly, it simply means i will focus on my objective. Any real driver will tell you the same.

 

[BhZ]

The point has been made before but I'm happy to repeat it, club racing is for everyone at all levels with as few barriers as possible to entry and enjoyment.

Where exactly did i day that people shouldn't partecipate?

 

[Kenny Paton]

Where exactly did i day that people shouldn't partecipate?

You may not have meant that but there is a whiff of elitism about your posts although to be fair you have said that english is not your first language but my point stands.

 

[BhZ]

You may not have meant that but there is a whiff of elitism about your posts although to be fair you have said that english is not your first language but my point stands.

I said people should care a bit more about learning. That doesn't mean they can't race. I dont care if people are 8 seconds slower as long as they dont spoil my experience (in the same way i try not to spoil anyone's race when i race). What i wish we had is a growing community that learn and help each other. But this is not possible if you have 10% of the drivers that try and learn and the other 90% that simply don't care. I said it before, when i help, i give something but we never get anything in return and never will, because people dont learn. You'd expect a different feeling from the biggest website about simracing.
EDIT: I have no problem sharing tips and advice. I don't like to share setups because that's simply useless. If you don't care about competitivity then why would you need a setup? There's no car on AC that it's impossible to drive with the default setup.