Much faster in a FWD

[Nathan Merry]

Hey,

Kinda doubling this as an intro thread, just got myself signed up for a license and looking forward to racing online

Not too long ago when I was using a flight stick for Race 07 I ran a race at Curitiba in the WTCC 07 cars (Honda Accord) at 90% difficulty. I struggled a bit in qualifying but easily won the race. Now that I have a G27 I set up a race at Brands Hatch with the F3000 at 90% and got my ass handed to me. I figured this was because I was not used to the faster car so had another go with the Formula BMW, again I was beaten pretty bad. A whole 7 seconds off pole position actually.

So at this point I can't work out if I'm not used to the wheel or if I just suck at open wheelers. I set up another race with the Honda Accord this time at Brands Hatch, again at 90% difficulty and this time get the pole position time in my second qualifying lap (a 1:37). I thought this just means I am better with the touring cars however I tried the BMW 320si in practice and I struggle to get a 1:41. It seems to me then that I am faster in a FWD car. Is this normal? I always thought the RWD was better and quicker in a race.

I have not been using any aids and I used the clutch and H-Shifter with the BMW as that is more accurate. I know its not my skill with the H-Shifter as I also tried the 6-Speed sequential version from the STCC as well as the Mercedes from the STCC and in both I was struggling for a 1:41. Also I tried using auto clutch in the 5-Speed version and if anything did worse, I was going off the track quite a bit :S

Sorry for the massive wall of text, especially in a first post but this is something that really bothers me, and something I need to fix before I go online and either get destroyed by the competition or accidentally crash and ruin someone else's race.

 

[Dennis Phelan]

The BMW is a car of choice for some drivers, a quick launcher with an easy to drive five speed. For some it has bad habits on the road but I think these are just a good car teaching you how to drive .

Most WTCC/STCC drivers prefer the fwd cars, some cars are really fast, having speed and acceleration and there are plenty there to find your soul mate. In each of the racing classes there is a parity but also advantages and disadvantages to each car. Formula cars are matched but oh so tricky to drive and skills usually determine speed. A good comparison would be how you do against drivers in rwd F cars and then in fwd Mini's!

I never drive against AI, humans are so much more fun to be around. There are variables using both AI and human racers for comparison. AI drive at different levels but always use the same cars, people make adjustments to their cars and of course we all drive differently!

You've posed a tough question. If mistakes lose you time or control, which also loses time, IMO a mistake made in a rwd looks bad, loses a lot of time and has a good chance of putting you off track or into someones path. Overdriving a fwd loses time yet usually is easily recoverable so again, IMO you can push harder and a failure teaches without destroying a lap.

 

[Jim Cole]

FWD will always be easier to get a good time in as they have a natural tendency to push in corners unless you know how to drive with the throttle. RWD cars are trickier to drive and take a little more practice at first to get used to them. The reason is because you usually have to be more careful with the throttle so you don't lose the back end. The open wheelers, especially the F3000 can be very tricky to drive well because of this.

As you have said you are new to racing with a wheel too, and that will take a little time to get your skill to the same level as you had with the joystick. Be patient and practice and you will soon be racing the AI at 110% and winning, even with RWD cars.

 

[Nathan Merry]

Well I see what you mean about the differences in cars Dennis. I tried the Seat and also got 1:37 (in default setup) but the Vauxhall and Chevy was 1:40. Still better than the BMW but definitely a noticeable difference.

I tried the Mini comp and didn't do so well. So I think the issue here is the differences in the cars for the WTCC. I also tried the radical 190hp on 90% and got pole. The radical of course being RWD. I might drive those cars for a while then move up to the higher horse power ones to really practice my driving. This way I'm not throwing myself in the deep end with a hard to control car, where I just end up frustrated.

Also Jim, being able to race 110% would be awesome What sort of level should I be at to race online with you guys?

 

[Alberto Casado]

I have the feeling that AI difficulty is not homogeneous all through the car classes. You may find easy to beat 100% in some fwd and impossible in others (the same with rwd) and has nothing to do with your ability.

IMHO to race online you don't need to be even near beating 110% AI. If you can make 10 laps in a row without stepping out of the track and keep the pace of 90% you are good to start.

 

[Dennis Phelan]

IMHO to race online you don't need to be even near beating 110% AI. If you can make 10 laps in a row without stepping out of the track and keep the pace of 90% you are good to start.

Totally agree!

The nice thing about Mini's, adjustments are minimal, jump in the car and go.

 

[Jim Cole]

As Alberto mentioned, I wouldn't go by what level of AI you can beat to determine when you should race real people. Real people are going to act differently than the AI and you have to learn to drive with us. Only real way to learn is to do it. I would however suggest that you make sure you have time to practice for events and don't just think that you can jump on the track. They key is learning the car and track and getting to where you can run a race length without leaving the track. If you can do the laps with consistency, all the better

 

[Martin Leyfield]

Yeah - RWD noobs should have a very soft rear anti roll bar, plenty of bump and rebound, enough ride height to maintain traction over bumps, and know the tricks of saving a spin (opposite lock and power or opposite lock and lock the brakes - a dab of handbrake if you are real sideways).

Best car to learn RWD is Caterham 200. Next best is Retro Cool Volvo Amazon. It is tail happy but you get plenty of time to settle the thing if its tail is wagging. WTCC87 Volvo 240 (STCC2 bonus content) is a nightmare. E30 and Alfa 75 not to bad if softened at the back.

NOTE: only use an online setup if it says easy, or beginner or some such (unil you get the hang of RWD).

Another good car to practice in is the four wheel drive Audi R8 production from GTR-Evolution.

 

[Alberto Casado]

The f3000 is also very nice (as intro to open wheel), it will give many opportunities of practicing spins both on throttle and braking (especially if you downshift too happy). It's easy to spin but also easy to save.

 

[Martin Leyfield]

Yes the F3000 is good at high speed when there is rear down force. It is quite hard at slower speed corners especially chicanes. The Imola chicanes are not too bad as they are quite fast so you do get some rear down force.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I am much faster in front wheel drive (both Mini and WTCC) after lots of miles in rear wheel drive. My FWD technique is now to have the car unsettled through corners and use lots of corrections. I learned how to do this in RWD.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Don't try to compare yourself with AI %.. Specially if you use addon tracks but the same goes for default tracks too: it's impossible to create natural drivingline and actions thru out the track for current AI routine with all the cars available. You have to "cheat" as a dev (i'm just a modder...) to get consistent laptimes for all levels of AI performance. So the actual level varies from track to track.

There are numerous parameters that would need to be exactly the same on each track, like worst/mid/best time differences.. Ai also increases aggressiveness depending on the skill level, 110% on some track mean that they'll crash all the time, drive off track or lose rear on that one corner. Switch to different class of cars and they'll make that same corner with flying colors.

Take all that and AIW (the file that contains the actual AI drivingline that they follow) being anything but realistic and that AI uses different grip than you (usually they have 2-8% more grip than you...).. .You'll have so much variables that consistent predictable behaviour is out of the window..

Running with humans: totally different and as backwards as it sounds, much more reliable data.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Here's values from two ingame tracks, Poznan and Chayka:

Poznan

WorstAdjust=(0.8000)  // Used for  70% AI strength option
MidAdjust=(1.0000)    // Used for 100% AI strength option (note that AIs now use full throttle above 95% AI strength option)
BestAdjust=(1.2000)    // Used for 120% AI strength option
QualRatio=(1.0200)    // Used to adjust AI speed in qual compared to base values
RaceRatio=(1.0500)    // Used to adjust AI speed in race compared to base values
CheatDelta=(0.0000,0.0000,0.0000)
 
  RoadDryGrip = 1.00
  AIDryGrip = 1.06
  RoadWetGrip = 0.75
  AIWetGrip = 0.80

Chayka:

WorstAdjust=(0.8000)  // Used for  70% AI strength option
MidAdjust=(1.0500)    // Used for 100% AI strength option (note that AIs now use full throttle above 95% AI strength option)
BestAdjust=(1.2500)    // Used for 120% AI strength option
QualRatio=(1.0100)    // Used to adjust AI speed in qual compared to base values
RaceRatio=(1.0400)    // Used to adjust AI speed in race compared to base values
 
  RoadDryGrip = 1.00
  AIDryGrip = 1.06
  RoadWetGrip = 0.75
  AIWetGrip = 0.78

Then there are several tricks that are used in the drivingline.. AI is very poor with elevations, corner in the top of the hill is nightmare, the AI bolts it at full speed, gets airborne and it then thinks it's time to brake... So the drivingline may have a "crimp" to stop it happening or AI uses totally different line.. In summarum, AI speed is poor indicator of your true speed.

EDIT:whaddauknow, i learned something new too.. There's a comment line that says "AIs now use full throttle above 95%).... So you can't go under 95% in any case, AI then doesn't use even full throttle so they drive slower on straights..

 

[Jim Cole]

snip...

EDIT:whaddauknow, i learned something new too.. There's a comment line that says "AIs now use full throttle above 95%).... So you can't go under 95% in any case, AI then doesn't use even full throttle so they drive slower on straights..

Hehehe, for those that need all the help they can get, we have put a wooden block under the throttle of all other drivers to improve your confidence

 

[Nathan Merry]

Thanks for the advice guys, sorry its taken so long to reply. I ended up getting caught up in Live for Speed actually.

I have run a race with real people now as I found an Australian league which is great for my timezone and ping. The current series is all FWD's but I'm hoping next series is RWD so I can really practice. I am way behind the others guys but loving the experience.

Overall I find LFS to have better physics, especially with tyres, but Race 07 has better immersion. I can't quite put my finger on what it is, but the crappy LFS sounds do not help. So I do hope to still do some Race 07 racing.

 

[Ariciuc Razvan]

The most important thing in racing is consistency, if you're 1s faster in a RWD but you spin once every 5 laps then you loose more time overall than if you would with at 1s slower FWD.
Also a big thing is not overall time, is how much are you in control of the car. Because if you're always on the limit how can you handle traffic, attack, defense.
My advice is to start with a slow stable car (mini cooper is great) and once you get a feel for the wheel and feel confident that you can handle yourself in traffic, you can go experiment with other cars RWD and with more HP.
The way racing was very gradual I've started playing with mouse and keyboard, then with wheel (no FFB) and now with a FFB wheel over the span of 2 years.
The best practice i've had has been in the 80 min Mini Cooper events, they are long enough to test how well you do under fatigue and mental toughness, also the 80 min races have taught me a great deal on how to mentally handle a spin or a crash and how to stain in control of my mood.

Best of luck and remember to always have fun!

P.S. AI even at 110% doesn't come close to the difficulty of overtaking a human.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

^^ This.. Mini Friday is excellent driving school..

 

[Nathan Merry]

Just a quick update if anyone is interested.

I recently bought the retro expansion pack and instead of doing something smart like get used to the Volvo Amazon. I've just started a custom Single Player championship in the Retro Max class, with the corvette.

I'm finding that by chucking myself in the deep-end a bit it forces me to focus on consistency and not spinning out rather than going hard for the best times. I just recently got 3rd place in Qualifying at Curitiba at 92% difficulty which is something I am quite proud of. I'll keep practicing with this car and then I think I'll be ready to race just about any car without crashing

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Good choice. Try the Commodore and the P??? Volvo too. Then the Mini and your prepared for everything. I think that order is good. Now you have nimble overpowered Vette with horrible suspension geometry to learn the basics of throttle control in RWD, then heavy and soft Opel to get really used to mass transfer during braking. Then the P-something Volvo to keep speed thru corners (and to get used to the other end, understeering RWD, they do exist..) and finally Mini for ultimate cornering (since it's underpowered on straights you need to go really really fast in corners, for which the Mini is perfect tool)

What tracks are you using? There are some basic configuration tracks in the default Race selection: Oschershleben for "mickey mouse" round symmetrical corners, Curitiba for fast sweeping corners and Brands Hatch. The latter is the most important, it represents sort of average of track around the world but best to get used to a new vehicle in a relative flat track.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

I love the Retro pack. With a limited number of cars in each class, but each car has very different set of characteristics ..

 

[April Dillon]

A little setup tip with the corvette; steep camber and high tire pressures. It'll still slip and slide everywhere, but it should be a little more manageable and a little quicker. The rest is just a matter of taming it as a driver.