PC1 Let's kill one of the biggest misconception about WMD

[c172fccc]

A misconception so big that SMS and many WMD members are getting wrong.

"Project CARS was tested by 80 000 people"

Yeah, let's kill that one.

1. Where does this miconception come from?

On wmdportal, at the bottom, it is written

.

2. Why is it wrong?

It isn't wrong, it is very true. The problem is that free members and people with multiple account (I'll talk about this) are included in that count.

3. So how do we count how many are paid account than?

The answer is in the face of everyone.

This:

Let's do some math.
A Junior account is 10€, Team Member is 25€, Full Member is 50€, Manager is 1000€ and Senior Manager is 25000€.

88180/10 = 8818
255025/25 = 10201
380315/50 = 7606,3 (it doesn't work for some reasons)
158300/100 = 1583
486805/1000 = 486,805 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
887030/25000 = 35,4812 (I'll explain why it doesn't work)
For a total of 28 731 members, and that's just the maximum.

4.Why is it the maximum?

What if you wanted to put more than 100€, but 1000€ was too much? It's easy, you just had to buy another account.

What if you wanted to put more than 1000€, but 25 000€ is too much? Managers could have a multiplier. You could be Manage (x1.75), for example.

What if you wanted to put more than 25 000€? Senior Manager could also have a multiplier.

I doubt there was more than 20 000 different people.

5. So that's it, there was approximately 20 000 people testing the game?

Not really. Some of these people never really tried the game for many reasons. Some people didn't have a proper pc to play the game, some people were just waiting for the final game, some people were here only for the money, ect.

And that's not all. Testing the game is nothing if you are not reporting. If you had a crash, you had to go on the forum to post them, nothing was automatic. Same thing for bugs, you had to report them.

I counted some times ago that there was exactly 9697 members with at least 1 post on the forum and most of them probably didn't ever post proper feedback. Also don't forget that people that only reported things 4 years ago are included in this count.


In conclusion, SMS, WMD Members and everyone, stop saying that there was 80 000 testers. Say more than 20 000 testers, and you're still wrong. Say more than 20 000 backers and you might be right.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

As I'm sure you are aware, it is actually quite difficult and time-consuming to give good feedback that result in solid repros which can then be scheduled and actioned. Posting opinions is a lot easier.

Install the JIRA bugtracker for vBulletin forums and you'll have less opinion and more on topic bug reports that can be configured, managed, scheduled and fixed perfectly fine.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

It's comments like this one you have made above, repeatedly, on nearly EVERY damned thread is what's confirming everyone's suspicions and beliefs that SMS/WMD can't take any slight hint of criticism.

Where is your evidence that Bram has an "agenda"? Back your slander up with evidence or GTFO. This must be the 20th damned time you have accused him of having an agenda without any kind of proof to back up your claim.

In my opinion, Bram raises fair and valid points, asks reasonable questions, provides facts/screenshot/quotes to backup statements all in a diplomatic tone. I feel he echoes the general consensus regarding PCARS here on RD.

I don't agree with everything he writes, I've hit the disagree button on a few of his posts, but here's the thing that you struggle to understand: that's his opinion and he is entitled to it.

You, on the other hand, make a point to attack the character of a person rather than address the actual issues raised, you change topic when it suits your "agenda" even on other peoples forums/posts/threads.

I wouldn't mind if you did this on PCars forum as I keep away from that cesspool, but I choose instead to get my info from here, (where people don't get banned for disagreeing with Sir Ian Bell and his perfectly created racing simulator) and quite frankly, you hijack every thread / post that highlights this poor excuse of a game and its many, many bugs.

Your schtick is tiresome at best.

Bravo!Bravo!

 

[Andy_J]

We must all remember one thing here people. There are game fans, there are fanboys and there are honest gamers with an opinion.

Then there is "the investor".

A totally different breed of hateful, spiteful, greedy, self opinionated creeping, sycophantic, obsequious, servile, fawning, ingratiating, unctuous, oily and slimy people.(obviously this only applies to those who it applies to.)

Any one reading or participating in this thread both now, in the past or in the future that feels that the above description fits him, please feel free to give me a dislike or a disagree smiley. I promise I wont get upset.

 

[David Wright]

Just like to say I found the original post informative in terms of understanding the real size of the crowd funding for pCARs. When it appeared pCARs had 60,000 backers, it was puzzling why Reiza are struggling to get 600.

 

[ermo]

Install the JIRA bugtracker for vBulletin forums and you'll have less opinion and more on topic bug reports that can be configured, managed, scheduled and fixed perfectly fine.

Thanks Bram, very good suggestion which I'll make sure to pass on.

Before pCARS 2 launched, I posted three times (which is what I limit myself to in terms of 'pushing') about how I felt we could probably benefit from both a more granular 'Like' system (Xenforo is pretty decent in that regard) as well as access to a proper issue tracking system, even if it is separate to the internal tracker.

I've set up and administered JIRA myself with a PostgreSQL back-end on CentOS (I'm quite partial to the upgrade routine in their stand-alone installer), so I have a decent idea of how JIRA works, and provided the extension is well-designed from both a management, technical and usability perspective, this might actually be just the ticket.

 

[ermo]

Depends.

If he is a smart guy driven by the target of pushing his product forwards and improve it, he would take the criticism, grab the good ideas, and make them happen. He would improve his product.

If he is a shortsighted guy he would get all mad and take it personally. He would not listen even if you gave good points just because "you´re negative". His product would not improve.

But yeah, you have every right to disagree. Not everybody is wise and mature enough to handle (and take advantage of) criticism. If a costumer comes to my business and tells me my meal is ****ing **** because there´s a rat on it, I would be a total imbecile kicking him out of my restaurant. I

As I recall, you are affected by a potentially wheel-breaking issue, right?

I think your analogy with the rat is a straw man in the sense that it is over the top. But I agree that paying to play a racing sim and going to a restaurant with the expectation of receiving a well served and well prepared meal share similarities.

In my view, a more representative analogy would be that your difficult-to-prepare meal was undercooked due to the kitchen being overburdened (due to lack of time, but not due to lack of cooking skills).

For that you are perfectly entitled to a refund as well as telling your mates that your meal was undercooked and not properly flavoured for balance between the ingredients.

Re. How criticism is delivered, I would tend to think that a wise man would think carefully about how to ensure that his message gets through without negative impact on the morale of the receiver. Telling people off (unless you are their boss and it is part of your responsibility to do so if the circumstances warrant it) tends to create friction and strife and is rarely conducive to constructive, civilized discourse.

 

[ermo]

ermo, you sound like a paid PR guy/girl. Not that it is a bad thing. Just saying. What you gave us was a very eloquent excuse.

I respect what SMS are doing and how hard they are working to make it a success, that's no secret. That's not to say that I agree with everything they do or say or vice versa.

I outlined my perspective on cause and effect given my WMD experience. If my comments cause you to think that it reads as an excuse, then I hope you will forgive me for thinking that perhaps your bias is showing as well?

And thank you for the compliment ... I think?

 

[SwaggerJacker]

You're welcome. bmanic completely missed that. You write well. So much so that even if I don't agree with your opinion, I'm inclined to continue reading.

 

[Dyrgl]

As I recall, you are affected by a potentially wheel-breaking issue, right?

I think your analogy with the rat is a straw man in the sense that it is over the top. But I agree that paying to play a racing sim and going to a restaurant with the expectation of receiving a well served and well prepared meal share similarities.

In my view, a more representative analogy would be that your difficult-to-prepare meal was undercooked due to the kitchen being overburdened (due to lack of time, but not due to lack of cooking skills).

You can´t really think so, you´re smarter than that. Shame you are tied by the proverbial balls and have to stick to a fixed agenda.

I bought a 400 Euros wheel and a 400 Euros console to enjoy a 60 euros game. The 60 euros game is not only broken, but it´s also damaging my wheel.

That´s a rat in the meal. Not only it will make the 60 euros meal worthless and useless, it also can cause you to lose something far more valuable (let´s say health issues and a week at the hospital). An overburned meal will spoil your meal and that´s it. A rat in the meal can further ruin your life in the near future.

 

[bmanic]

It's comments like this one you have made above, repeatedly, on nearly EVERY damned thread is what's confirming everyone's suspicions and beliefs that SMS/WMD can't take any slight hint of criticism.

Where is your evidence that Bram has an "agenda"? Back your slander up with evidence or GTFO. This must be the 20th damned time you have accused him of having an agenda without any kind of proof to back up your claim.

In my opinion, Bram raises fair and valid points, asks reasonable questions, provides facts/screenshot/quotes to backup statements all in a diplomatic tone. I feel he echoes the general consensus regarding PCARS here on RD.

I don't agree with everything he writes, I've hit the disagree button on a few of his posts, but here's the thing that you struggle to understand: that's his opinion and he is entitled to it.

You, on the other hand, make a point to attack the character of a person rather than address the actual issues raised, you change topic when it suits your "agenda" even on other peoples forums/posts/threads.

I wouldn't mind if you did this on PCars forum as I keep away from that cesspool, but I choose instead to get my info from here, (where people don't get banned for disagreeing with Sir Ian Bell and his perfectly created racing simulator) and quite frankly, you hijack every thread / post that highlights this poor excuse of a game and its many, many bugs.

Your schtick is tiresome at best.

Look, it's very simple laws of physics. There's action and reaction. One person spews vile poison which needs to be countered. Hence as long as somebody keeps turning every thread into poison somebody needs to out that person.

I can't help you for not seeing it my way, nor do you have to. Keep in mind that I enjoy and play many of the other established simulators. I was one of the few at the iRacing forums defending Assetto Corsa from similar vile poison that was going on there at the iRacing forums. There needs to be people who out all the BS.

As for "defending" Project CARS.. no I'm not. It's very obvious that you do not know me. If you happen to be part of WMD or know somebody who has access then all you need to do is to search for my name there. I am one of those HIGHLY CRITICAL people over there. I've raised red flags about NUMEROUS issues over the years.. up until the very end. This is why I keep saying that I am LITERALLY living proof for people not getting randomly banned nor harassed by the developers.

What I do NOT tolerate is obvious poison. Posts written with a single goal in mind.. to make everything look worse than it is. I'm also very much against writing down right lies and twisting the truth to your own benefit.. I'm also not afraid of admitting when I am wrong (I have been wrong many times of course).

Basically I'd like the community to calm the <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.> and realize that this is just a friggin game.. one of many. I try to remind people that we live at an all-time high when it comes to sim-racing. There has never been a better time to be a simracer, yet the community is infested with whiny little brats all over the place. Considering the average age of us simracers it is completely inexcusable. Why on earth is there so much bickering going on? The level of entitlement is horrendous..

Yes the game has some severe issues. Yes SMS broke some "promises" (note how I put it in " " because it is THEIR game.. they can do whatever the <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.>want as they own the IP and did all the work. We can complain a bit but it doesn't give us any right to be whiny little brats about it all!). Yes the advertising is over the top (but so is every other single game and sim.. if you can't see that then you are blind). Basically everything about the marketing and release of the game is exactly on par with the status quo. Deal with it and try not to be a douche about it. Vote with your wallet and then leave it at that.

I just have a hard time understanding the mentality of the crazy fringe who go mental about a game and actively seek out to poison the community. Yes I know these kind of people are among us in society as well but it doesn't mean we shouldn't fight these people. Stand up to them, scrutinize what they are saying and implying. Politely at first, like in real life, but if they can't seem to understand how utterly disruptive they are then <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.>. A child only learns to grow up as a decent human being if there is a good mix of love and discipline involved. Nothing different here.

I have absolutely NOTHING against Bram as a person. I don't even know him. I even respect him for running a website that has the potential of being great but I am NOT going to stand his <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.> and spreading of negativity and poison, not without outing it. I'm still don't understand what he has to gain from it.. or what any of you other people who spew vile poison have to gain from it. It is completely foreign to me. Know this: I don't hate the person. I don't disrespect the person. I disrespect and fight against what they say, imply or stand for. That might sound contradicting to some of you but then so be it.

 

[bmanic]

You're welcome. bmanic completely missed that. You write well. So much so that even if I don't agree with your opinion, I'm inclined to continue reading.

I didn't miss anything. Ermo is just a much nicer and more tolerant dude than me. He is way smarter too. He fights fire with water. I fight fire with fire. It's just how I am.

Like I said. Ermo is a super friendly awesome dude so writing snarky posts as a reply to his thought out, honest and friendly posts irks me.. which is why I reacted (and always will react) the way I did.

 

[sniper420]

Look, it's very simple laws of physics. There's action and reaction. One person spews vile poison which needs to be countered. Hence as long as somebody keeps turning every thread into poison somebody needs to out that person.

I can't help you for not seeing it my way, nor do you have to. Keep in mind that I enjoy and play many of the other established simulators. I was one of the few at the iRacing forums defending Assetto Corsa from similar vile poison that was going on there at the iRacing forums. There needs to be people who out all the BS.

As for "defending" Project CARS.. no I'm not. It's very obvious that you do not know me. If you happen to be part of WMD or know somebody who has access then all you need to do is to search for my name there. I am one of those HIGHLY CRITICAL people over there. I've raised red flags about NUMEROUS issues over the years.. up until the very end. This is why I keep saying that I am LITERALLY living proof for people not getting randomly banned nor harassed by the developers.

What I do NOT tolerate is obvious poison. Posts written with a single goal in mind.. to make everything look worse than it is. I'm also very much against writing down right lies and twisting the truth to your own benefit.. I'm also not afraid of admitting when I am wrong (I have been wrong many times of course).

Basically I'd like the community to calm the f*** down and realize that this is just a friggin game.. one of many. I try to remind people that we live at an all-time high when it comes to sim-racing. There has never been a better time to be a simracer, yet the community is infested with whiny little brats all over the place. Considering the average age of us simracers it is completely inexcusable. Why on earth is there so much bickering going on? The level of entitlement is horrendous..

Yes the game has some severe issues. Yes SMS broke some "promises" (note how I put it in " " because it is THEIR game.. they can do whatever the f*** they want as they own the IP and did all the work. We can complain a bit but it doesn't give us any right to be whiny little brats about it all!). Yes the advertising is over the top (but so is every other single game and sim.. if you can't see that then you are blind). Basically everything about the marketing and release of the game is exactly on par with the status quo. Deal with it and try not to be a douche about it. Vote with your wallet and then leave it at that.

I just have a hard time understanding the mentality of the crazy fringe who go mental about a game and actively seek out to poison the community. Yes I know these kind of people are among us in society as well but it doesn't mean we shouldn't fight these people. Stand up to them, scrutinize what they are saying and implying. Politely at first, like in real life, but if they can't seem to understand how utterly disruptive they are then smack them in the teeth. A child only learns to grow up as a decent human being if there is a good mix of love and discipline involved. Nothing different here.

I have absolutely NOTHING against Bram as a person. I don't even know him. I even respect him for running a website that has the potential of being great but I am NOT going to stand his BS and spreading of negativity and poison, not without outing it. I'm still don't understand what he has to gain from it.. or what any of you other people who spew vile poison have to gain from it. It is completely foreign to me. Know this: I don't hate the person. I don't disrespect the person. I disrespect and fight against what they say, imply or stand for. That might sound contradicting to some of you but then so be it.

<Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.>

You still somehow managed to not answer the ONE question that I asked.

I'll ask again.

Where is your evidence that Bram has an "agenda"?

Provide the evidence or <Mod Edit: No need to swear like that.>

You should stop simracing and become a politician as your attitude is truly vile.

 

[ermo]

You can´t really think so, you´re smarter than that. Shame you are tied by the proverbial balls and have to stick to a fixed agenda.

I bought a 400 Euros wheel and a 400 Euros console to enjoy a 60 euros game. The 60 euros game is not only broken, but it´s also damaging my wheel.

That´s a rat in the meal. Not only it will make the 60 euros meal worthless and useless, it also can cause you to lose something far more valuable (let´s say health issues and a week at the hospital). An overburned meal will spoil your meal and that´s it. A rat in the meal can further ruin your life in the near future.

(emphasis mine)

Ad the bolded part, I think you'll have to explain that one to me, because I'm not sure I get what you're attempting to tell me other than it appears to me that you are assuming something about me that I suspect isn't true. FWIW, I disagree with you because of my experience with how the developers work, not because I think they can do no wrong and must never be criticised and Project CARS is perfect (it isn't!).

And my point of view is that I think you appear to be extrapolating from your personal experience to the broader experience, as e.g. my wheel (the fairly common G27) is most certainly not broken on the PC version. As a local truth, you might smell a rat (metaphorically speaking). And you have every right to be upset and complain about that in my opinion. €860 is not small change and I'm certainly not going to try to explain away the issues that people with Thrustmaster wheels are apparently experiencing (nor the multitude of other issues that have been reported and are currently being addressed internally). Frankly, I don't know what on earth is going on in interfacing with those wheels (I've seen reports of the 300 series also needing absurd amounts of soft clipping), but you can be pretty damn certain that it wasn't and isn't what the developers intended.

"Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by ignorance" as the saying goes -- that is, if the developers, 3rd party testers and Sony all didn't see the issue in their in-house testing, can you really blame SMS for thinking that it would be ok to publish the build?

This is what you said once you got fed up with the issues:

"Yep, you admit the ones that become blatant and you can´t hide anymore from consumers. Sure.

But otherwise they´re kept in the dark, swept under the carpet, deflected, or directly denied. Example? I didn´t hear a word about most peripherals acting crazy in certain platforms before release. And you guys knew about it!!. It is impossible you didn´t, as it took me 15 minutes being forced to restart my wheel to protect the FFB engine the first 3 times. That was a critical, perfectly known issue swept under the carpet until it was impossible to do so." -- (source)

You categorically assert that SMS knew about the issues and (taking that assertion as fact) you accuse them of deceiving and lying by omission. I question that they knew about the issue you experienced. I also assert that IF they had known, THEN they would have tried to fix it OR failing that, have posted about it in the list of known issues. Because that's how they have operated in the time I have known them on the WMD forum. And I do agree that having a reproducible issue that makes a certain steering wheel effectively self-destroy is pretty serious and should definitely count as a blocker in terms of having a patch accepted for publishing.


Anyway, to take a step away from legitimate grievances, I guess all there is left to say is that if you haven't sold it on the used games market by then, I'm fairly confident that your experience with Project CARS will be different in 3-4 month's time. If your attitude has soured to the point of no return, then OK, I can see why. I'm sad to see you and Ole go, but I respect your reasons for doing so.

Have fun on the track in whatever sims you prefer.

(edit: typo)

 

[Dyrgl]

(emphasis mine)


"Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by ignorance" as the saying goes -- that is, if the developers, 3rd party testers and Sony all didn't see the issue in their in-house testing, can you really blame SMS for thinking that it would be ok to publish the build?

This is what you said once you got fed up with the issues:

"Yep, you admit the ones that become blatant and you can´t hide anymore from consumers. Sure.

But otherwise they´re kept in the dark, swept under the carpet, deflected, or directly denied. Example? I didn´t hear a word about most peripherals acting crazy in certain platforms before release. And you guys knew about it!!. It is impossible you didn´t, as it took me 15 minutes being forced to restart my wheel to protect the FFB engine the first 3 times. That was a critical, perfectly known issue swept under the carpet until it was impossible to do so." -- (source)

You categorically assert that SMS knew about the issues and (taking that assertion as fact) you accuse them of deceiving and lying by omission.

Sorry mate, no sell. And not that you should care, but in my eyes you keep dropping lower and lower in the integrity ladder. I don´t believe for a second you yourself believe a word you write. For God´s sake, have a good hard look at your posts LOL.

Are you trying to tell me that, somehow, there´s a REMOTE CHANCE of the upper example not being a case of malicious behaviour, but instead a case of incompetence? Are you telling me there´s a remote chance SMS did honestly NOT KNOW about these issues when I bumped into the whole mess in a matter of minutes? Really? Then let me just laugh.

Of course I accuse them of being deceiving! On not only by criminal omission like in this case, also actively. Like when Kim Jong Bell told us months ago the game was 99% finished.

I don´t know if it´s sad or hilarious having to read this stuff. It´s sad to see what this rotten model generates. But it´s also hilarious seeing how far people will go when money (even if it´s ridiculous amounts) is involved.

 

[ermo]

Are you trying to tell me that, somehow, there´s a REMOTE CHANCE of the upper example not being a case of malicious behaviour, but instead a case of incompetence? Are you telling me there´s a remote chance SMS did honestly NOT KNOW about these issues when I bumped into the whole mess in a matter of minutes? Really? Then let me just laugh.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting to you (ignorance as in initially "not knowing", not incompetence). And you refuse to take it at face value which is fine. That's your prerogative.

But you see, if you assume ignorance instead of malice, then suddenly Ian's stance toward what you posted is perfectly straight-forward. Can you not see that?

 

[c172fccc]

Oh, look, my informative thread turned into a shitstorm where people insults themselves. Thanks Bram...

 

[Hash_V8]

Oh, look, my informative thread turned into a shitstorm where people insults themselves. Thanks Bram...

Yeah its brams fault lol unreal, couple of questions, feel free to sidestep as you have through out this thread and have you or another write essay how Pcars should be left alone and doesn't deserve to criticized despite its horrible state, having largest dev studio in sim racing as well as budget, and a marketing arm claiming perfection.

Why do you feel you need to address a "misconception" some random on pretend race cars said, when the very business that you are (defending?) is saying the same thing as a marketing slant?and saying it very strongly too.

What actual use did you think this would have other than ammo to attack ppl criticizing pcars?

Especially when SMS choose to continue to use that number, was it supposed to help ppl enjoy the game more? or for us that have major issues to have some kind of feel sorry vibe for SMS after robbing me of 100nz dollars? or maybe you get sick of defending pcar bugs when ppl bring that number up?(like it makes blind bit of diffrence what ever it is).

Would you be willing to divulge some more info on misconceptions...

like is this really a perfect build (as said by bell himself)?

Does bell truly believe he has best AI on market?

Is the vast majority of issues actually users fault as made out by SMS?

Why was the second patch in game called 2.0? is this some kind of sick joke? end of patches? or is the 1st pcars now the sequel as the numbering suggests?

Will Ian bell talk to me nicely if I have dinner with him and give him 10 thousand big ones?

I have many many more for the "misconception" buster so if get through those maybe can answer more, your "informative thread" might actually contain useful info now.

 

[Lorenzo Bonder]

Oh, look, my informative thread turned into a shitstorm where people insults themselves. Thanks Bram...

Bro,

don't even dare to put a finger in front of Bram's face and accuse this is his doing, as I won't blame you for putting up this thread , you wanted to get some "facts" straight and you did. Period.

However, it doesn't matter if it was 20k or 80k or 100k "testers". The game still has MIND BOGGLING bugs, ones capable of crashing someone's computer, and those bugs still weren't addressed. Multiplayer is still a mess (being addressed in a turtle pace though), we can't EVEN GET A PROPER RACE set and not having people crashing because of MP issues.

So if we are to believe to heart that "Those issued will be addressed and the dev team is looking at it", we'll be only getting those fixes by 2018, when pCars 3 releases (they announced pCars 2 already, so lets just imagine it gets announced after pCars 2 goes gold and it gets released).

The only issue I have with pCars that they went through the same issue 90% of the triple A games are going. Unfinished products, with game breaking issues and therefore it takes our WHOLE fun experience away. I believe that if pCars needed better work and a few other months of delays could work, even though SMS would take a financial hit it still would be a major success all around, they'd eventually get their money back for sure.

But keep this noted: Don't point fingers on others for free. It won't end up well for the accuser.

 

[c172fccc]

.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

I'm sad to see you and Ole go, but I respect your reasons for doing so.

I was surprised to see me mentioned here - and just as a sidenote (or this thread itself is a sidenote...). If the game get fixed(in my own terms regarding "fixed" ), I'll re-buy it.