Isn't God technically at fault for creating Satan?

[Miguel Gonzalez]

As much as you'd like to tell yourself common sense is akin to morality i beg to differ. You and your friend are hungry and you have a small amount of food. Common sense says "im hungry, i have food, ill eat it so i don't die," morality says: "maybe i should offer my friend some of my food". Everyone deserves respect. If they're assholes and don't treat me with the same respect that's their problem. I don't have to lower myself to their level if i can avoid it.

Yes there is actually. And you have a whole country behind it as a folklore namely Ireland.
The difference is they know it´s a folklore.

Prophets, Saints, Scholars. All regular people but has recieved a mythical status.
Much in the same way people freak out when Michael Jackson or Bruce Springsteen cames to town. It´s no different.

So yes, leprechauns, unicorns, trolls, big foot, giants, Zeus, Hares, Poseidon, Jesus, Mohammed, it all goes in the same box because it´s science fiction. At least modern man has established that greek religions are now mythology.


I wouldn´t use those words but i´d say you are irrational and illogical if anything.

"I'd say you are irrational, illogical and I'm smarter than you." - Fixed that for you Hampus.

You obviously fall directly into the category I described and pride yourself on it. If your grasp of Intelligent design only extends to leprechauns, santa clause and a bearded man in the clouds than nothing anyone will show you will have any bearing on your opinion whether its factual or not. I can use the same demeaning tone talking about your lack of knowledge on scientific subjects which atheists pride themselves so much on.

Laws of physics state matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Using the laws of physics we understand the best explanation for the origin of the universe is: "first there was nothing, nothing happened to nothing which made it explode into everything." - Big Bang

We're all in the same boat trying to find our own answers, I don't care if someone has the different beliefs than mine, I still treat them with respect. Your common sense fails a bit on that one.

No it goes for every single religious person. You believe in something written in a book.
The book is therefore the law which you live your life upon and base your ideals.

Anything to disrupt that will not be accepted because you already have the answer, no need for further information.

You take the book literal in some cases. In some cases not. The difference is you choose what to take literally and what to take with a pinch of salt.

You ever read a science or history book? Was there at least ONE correct fact in those books? Therefore the entire book must be law right? You believed something in it, it must be. Science and history doesn't change over time right? Are you the only one who is capable of reading a book and deciding what you take literally and what you take with a pinch of salt? Are you saying EVERYONE who has ever read the bible is incapable of such a feat? They read the bible they must be religious /end of argument


Stop the broad categorization. Now i'm starting to see why everyone was so adamant this couldn't be talked about like adults here, you're starting to prove that argument. So tone back the Leprechauns and fairies, no one is talking about it or wants to hear it, we're trying to talk in a respectful manner. Does the possibility frighten you so much you have to label it something ridiculous so you can deal with it? I think you're smarter than that and can form a reasonable argument without being so insulting and derogatory.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

As much as you'd like to tell yourself common sense is akin to morality i beg to differ. You and your friend are hungry and you have a small amount of food. Common sense says "im hungry, i have food, ill eat it so i don't die," morality says: "maybe i should offer my friend some of my food". Everyone deserves respect. If they're assholes and don't treat me with the same respect that's their problem. I don't have to lower myself to their level if i can avoid it.

That´s not common sense. That´s selfishness.
Common sense say share the bread since if two people live the chances of surviving is far better then running around all by yourself.
Especially if it´s a cold place and you need someone to create bodyheat with.
Can´t do that with a dead body.

So if a person kills your whole family, you´ll show him respect.
How can you even claim that this person deserves any respect is mindboggling.

"I'd say you are irrational, illogical and I'm smarter than you." - Fixed that for you Hampus.

So now we resort to putting words in other people´s mouths... great.
Wasn´t it you who pushed on about having an intelligent discussion?
Where´s the intelligence behind putting words in other people´s mouths and deforming their comments so they fit you better?

You obviously fall directly into the category I described and pride yourself on it. If your grasp of Intelligent design only extends to leprechauns, santa clause and a bearded man in the clouds than nothing anyone will show you will have any bearing on your opinion whether its factual or not. I can use the same demeaning tone talking about your lack of knowledge on scientific subjects which atheists pride themselves so much on.

I don´t pride myself on it, just trying to understand how anyone can believe in such fairytales.
Fairytales that are not just one but thousands through time.

What scientific subjects do i lack any knowledge about?
I´m sure there´s plenty of them since the scientific field is huge even when you single out 99.999% of the world.
But more to the point, there´s still no proof for intelligent design, that someone has created this world.
If you have any evidence, please show it. Second time i´m asking that now.

Laws of physics state matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Using the laws of physics we understand the best explanation for the origin of the universe is: "first there was nothing, nothing happened to nothing which made it explode into everything." - Big Bang You have the same uncertainty of the origins of the universe as any of those irrational illogical people you pride yourself on being so superior to. We're all in the same boat trying to find our own answers, I don't care if someone has the different beliefs than mine, I still treat them with respect. Your common sense fails a bit on that one.

But there wasn´t nothing. You miss-understand the word nothing.
There was something but in the big picture we simply say it was nothing.

No it´s not the same uncertainty as those irrational illogical people that i´m not priding myself on being so superior on.
Again, second time now you put words in my mouth.
Not very intelligent of you as you were the one asking for an intelligent conversation.

If a person says "god did it" and don´t have anything to back it up with and another person says "hmm..everything is going away from each other, let´s try and figure out where everything came from, *research research research* hmm...looking at all the tests and being supported by all this math it really does seem like there was a huge explosion that caused all of this"

Yea....i´m going with the research group, you can go with the dude saying a god did it.
I mean after all, he´s got a fancy book there. Obviously they must have known back then.

You ever read a science or history book? Was there at least ONE correct fact in those books? Therefore the entire book must be law right? Science and history doesn't change over time right? Are you the only one who is capable of reading a book and deciding what you take literally and what you take with a pinch of salt? Are you saying EVERYONE who has ever read the bible is incapable of such a feat? They read the bible they must be religious /end of argument

I´m glad you brought this up. You see this is what makes science work and what makes religion not work.

old scientist says "the earth is flat, just look at the horizon, it´s completely flat"
Then a new scientists comes along many many years later with better calculations etc and says "nope the earth definitely seems to be round"
So if the old scientist had been there he would have said "sorry mate, this is absolutely correct, thank you for correction me"

While in the religious sense it´s like this,

Old guy says "it says in the book here that it´s flat"
Many years later new guy says "it says in the book here that it´s flat"
And it goes on and on and on and never evolves because the answer is already known.
This is the fundamental reason why Religion does not work.

They read the bible they must be religious /end of argument

Now you again put words in my mouth....starting to get annoying by now.

I said if you believe in Satan and God you are by definition religious.
Try and read what i write so we don´t have to waste time going over these sort of things.

Stop the broad categorization. Now i'm starting to see why everyone was so adamant this couldn't be talked about like adults here, you're starting to prove that argument. So tone back the Leprechauns and fairies, no one is talking about it or wants to hear it, we're trying to talk in a respectful manner. Does the possibility frighten you so much you have to label it something ridiculous so you can deal with it? I think you're smarter than that and can form a reasonable argument without being so insulting and derogatory.

You are the one putting words in people´s mouths and asking for intelligent discussions when so far the least intelligent person here seems to be you, otherwise you would not resort to that sort of thing.

I have been respectful, i´m just saying that Leprechauns, Jesus, Zeus, Krishna, Boogieman, falls into the same category for a person like me who never made a choice to believe in fairytales.

Does the possibility frighten you so much you have to label it something ridiculous so you can deal with it?

No i´m frightened about having people believe in this sort of things and i honestly feel it´s an insult to the human race.

Not trying to be insulting but completely honest.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I think it´s clear by now that this discussion was never ment to discuss about whether god or satan exists or not but rather the "fact" that they do exist and instead discuss why god created satan.

It´s a discussion about the "fact" that is religion rather then a discussion about if Religion is a fact in the first place.

Not much to discuss for me then, have fun boys.

 

[Miguel Gonzalez]

No I'm Playing devils advocate to have some sort of discussion, you're the one actively demeaning and categorizing people on blind assumptions. Your final post amounts to:

I can argue your side of the coin just as easily and much more respectfully, so of you've made your contribution and feel you have nothing left to discuss move on and I'll take over your argument.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

The problem here is you putting words in other people´s mouths so the discussion can go towards your pre-determined view on how the discussion should play out.

You call for an intelligent discussion yet it´s you who comes across as the least intelligent right now.

And i´m still waiting for evidence. You still haven´t posted anything that would support the notion of a supreme being creating this place.

 

[Miguel Gonzalez]

No I didn't put word in your mouth I took your cut and dry factual statements a d phrased questions out of them for you to answer. Did you not say: "You believe in something written in a book.
The book is therefore the law which you live your life upon and base your ideals."? I phrased some questions based on that criteria. You're the one that seems to rephrase yourself everytime someone calls you on one.

You also said: "I'd say you're irrational and illogical if anything." wouldn't you say you're smarter than an irrational and illogical person? Do you see them as equals? If you do you're pretty disrespectful, not showing much common sense as you'd phrase it.

"You're the one coming off least intelligent right now." because I try to keep things respectful?
If that makes me stupid in your eyes so be it, doesn't bother me. I've acomnplished quite a bit in my 25 years on this planet and I have a lot more left to learn and do. I try to learn from everyone. If I pass up the opportunity to learn from someone just because of what they chose to belive that makes me ignorant.

If the whole world thought like that we wouldn't have many of the scientific achievements and accomplishments we do today. Intelligent design has been the inspiration, and in some cases detriment, to Scientific understanding.

Stop asking for evidence, by your definition I'm not going to give you one of the flying spaghetti monsters meatballs, a leprechauns pot of gold or a beard from a guy in the clouds. If its all the same to you what good would it do me to show you anything? I love the golden ratio, that number and it's recurrence through the universe, to me, is evidence that maybe its the data set for our world, meaning if this is all an illusion or some sort of simulation phi could be the source code so to speak. Or how about universal conciousness? Recent studies show that the oobe phenomena is a shared experience and many see the same things on the bring of death and feel a connection to the universe, that could be interpreted as some sort of design but that doesn't matter to you because you limit yourself to Santa clause and leprechauns.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

No I didn't put word in your mouth

Yes you did. About 4 times at that. Remember the "fixed it for you"

You also said: "I'd say you're irrational and illogical if anything." wouldn't you say you're smarter than an irrational and illogical person?

Do you understand why rationale, logical and intelligent are three separate words?
Not sure why you like to use rationale and logical as a different word for smart or intelligent.

I´d say i´m more rational and logical. Smarter is a completely different thing.

"You're the one coming off least intelligent right now." because I try to keep things respectful?

No....because you put words in my mouth as i´ve said 5 times now.

If that makes me stupid in your eyes so be it, doesn't bother me.

Another out of the blue thing... You seem to not really understand what the three words mean and why they actually are three separate words.

Stop asking for evidence, by your definition I'm not going to give you one of the flying spaghetti monsters meatballs, a leprechauns pot of gold or a beard from a guy in the clouds.

So there is none? Why did you not say that in the first place. Been asking to see something now for several posts.

If its all the same to you what good would it do me to show you anything? I love the golden ratio, that number and it's recurrence through the universe, to me, is evidence that maybe its the data set for our world, meaning if this is all an illusion or some sort of simulation phi could be the source code so to speak. Or how about universal conciousness? Recent studies show that the oobe phenomena is a shared experience and many see the same things on the bring of death and feel a connection to the universe, that could be interpreted as some sort of design but that doesn't matter to you because you limit yourself to Santa clause and leprechauns.

Just because the golden ratio occur in nature doesn´t mean it´s evidence of a god.


Yea all of this could be a simulation run on a quantum computer but still doesn´t prove anything.
If anything it only disproves the religions even further.

The rest is a lot of "could be" "questions" "studies" "interpretation" etc.
That´s not evidence for intelligent design.

 

[Miguel Gonzalez]

Yes you did. About 4 times at that. Remember the "fixed it for you"

did you read anything past that line? I used your arguments to phrase questions, that you ignored.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

did you read anything past that line? I used your arguments to phrase questions, that you ignored.

I´m struggling to see why i should do that since you ignore everything i ask for and say yet demand me to not ignore yours..
Like now for example.

And no you did not use my arguments to phrase questions. You took my argument, picked it apart, slapped on some new words and presented it as my argument again.

 

[Miguel Gonzalez]

I'm not here to prove anything to you Hampus, I'm here to gain perspective. And from what I can tell your perspective is that you are superior to illogical irrational people and this debate is beneath you. So move on, I'll take over your side and see if I can get anyone back in here that you may have scared off.

I said before there was no proof, I tried to give you some reasoning and evidence, and just as I predicted in an earlier post it's not a pot of gold or a cut of some beard hair do you, like any religios person, who hears an idea they don't personally agree with, shove it in the trash bin. Evidence =/= proof. I'm not here to prove anything to you or "win" a debate against you. If thats what you care about in a debate pat yourself on the back for your "victory" that no one could prove you wrong. You missed the point.

This is the last response I'll make to you as it's turning into a personal attacks at this point and I'm going to try to avoid sinking to that level. Again the point isn't to prove someone wrong, it's about perspective. If you have no interest in what anyone here has to say move on.

Anyone else who wants to continue feel free to pick any of my or Hampus' points and I'll take the other coin and try to keep it going.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I'm here to gain perspective. And from what I can tell your perspective is that you are superior to illogical irrational people and this debate is beneath you.

How can you gain perspective when everything i say is ignored and you fabricate my own opinion.
Like right now that i´m supposedly superior to illogical and irrational people.

I simply said that if you believe in Satan and God (or anything from the Abrahamic religions) then you are irrational and illogical. Because it´s not rational to believe that God created the world in 6 days, adam was created out of dust, Eve created out of a rib and a talking snake in the middle of everything. And it goes on and on and on.
There´s so many illogical things and complete disregard of the laws of nature and life in general.

If thats what you care about in a debate pat yourself on the back for your "victory" that no one could prove you wrong.

I had no idea this was about me actually. I thought it was whether the stories are fact or not.
Opinions should not matter in such discussion. Not mine, and not yours.

This is the last response I'll make to you as it's turning into a personal attacks at this point and I'm going to try to avoid sinking to that level. Again the point isn't to prove someone wrong, it's about perspective. If you have no interest in what anyone here has to say move on.

If it´s a personal attack in saying that you put words in my mouth (as i´ve proven several times)
Then so be it. It´s the truth afterall.

Perspective on what exactly? In all honesty the thread was originally about God and Satan and the implications that went with it.

And in terms of the orginal concept behind the thread the OP pretty much nailed it right from the start.
It makes no sense at all and he even acknowledge that.

 

[Danny Asbury]

Fascinating thread. Well.. it started out fascinating... The opening post actually puts forth a very intriguing question, one I feel Christians don’t ask much. So for the sake of not delving into some of the other stuff posted in here, I’ll discuss the OP.

This question of whether or not God is at fault for Satan boils down to whether or not God is responsible for our actions as individuals. Because as Mohammed pointed out, God knows what each of us will do. Now, I could branch off into a bunch of my own opinions on this, but I’ll try to keep my viewpoint biblical, because after all, if you’re going to earnestly discuss God, it makes sense to use His word to do so.

The Bible makes a lot of references to choice. Joshua 24:15 “But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...”. Kings 18:21 “And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord [be] God, follow him: but if Baal, [then] follow him...”. Samuel 24:12 “Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three [things]; choose thee one of them, that I may [do it] unto thee.” God is making it quite clear he places a high value on choice; that in creating us, He gave us the ability to choose what to do with our lives. It may even be fair to say, that without choice, there is no true life.

With that said, God didn’t create Satan. He created Lucifer, who--for lack of a better term--was without flaw. Lucifer then chose to try and become a god in his own right, thus becoming Satan. Therefore he choose evil. God did not create an evil being. That opens up a new can of worms when it concerns the origins of evil, but I won’t get into that as it would pull the conversation slightly off base.

If God were to “screen” his creations, so to speak, checking to see if they chose to go against Him at some point (and opting not to create those that did) then there would be no existence. Period. Because everyone goes against God at some point, as no one is truly perfect. God points this out multiple times in the Bible, one of which is in Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." So the real question becomes whether or not God is responsible for existence. And yes, of course He is. The thing is, as is stated in Genesis, when God created the world, He saw that it was good. Simply put, He made a good thing. We then choose to mess it up, Lucifer included. Those are our choices, not God’s.

I hope that answers the OP. If I was unclear on some things, feel free to respond, I’m more than happy to discuss this sort of stuff.

The final thing I will say--which is kinda directed at some of the points made in the thread (which have nothing to do with the OP, mind you)--is that I simply don’t understand why people feel the need to weigh in on things they may not be too familiar with. I mean, there are certain individuals that have posted which have likened God, Jesus, and certain figures to Santa Claus and what have you. I completely understand that argument--it’s actually quite valid to a certain degree. But what I don’t get, is why those individuals would fight tooth and nail to get their point across. See, if I stumbled across a thread detailing the legitimacy of Santa Claus, I wouldn’t even click it, let alone read through it, let alone make a single responds to it. Why? Because, yeah, I think the notion of Santa Claus being real is completely ridiculous (like some people feel about God).

The fact that people feel the need to challenge ideas like this (I see it quite regularly) is almost like they’re trying to reason to ‘themselves’ that Santa Claus (or whomever) isn’t real. Just remember, you give legs to an argument that you contest.

And, sure, I do understand that there are a lot of agnostics and atheist that feel they are doing the world a good service by trying to get people to let go of the supposed stupidity brought about by Christ and a belief in Him. I get that. I remember Bill Nye recently went on air about his frustrations with parents teaching their kids about creationism. What I don’t get is that with things like murder, rape, suicide, crime, war, and oppression, people are concerned about annihilating something that teaches love, redemption, and life after death.

For people that claim to be so logical, it’s quite illogical what they’re doing. There’s a term for it, it’s called bigger fish to fry. You’d think atheist would have better things to do to improve humanity than going around chastising a pack of supposed idiots chasing their tails (i.e. me and other God fearing individuals). But okay, I don’t know logic, so I guess I shouldn’t be commenting on the “smart” peoples’ actions. Sorry, I lost my place.

Time to start chasing my tail again.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

See, if I stumbled across a thread detailing the legitimacy of Santa Claus, I wouldn’t even click it, let alone read through it, let alone make a single responds to it. Why? Because, yeah, I think the notion of Santa Claus being real is completely ridiculous (like some people feel about God).

And you would still have that same oppinion if it was 70% of the worlds population believing in Santa Claus?
You don´t think that would somehow affect the world in any way?
You´d sit back and just let people run with it?

Don´t just think about it for 5 seconds but imagine houses of worship all over the world.
Mecca would be the north pole. Stories of how he used to visit every child all over the world on a sled.
People going to these houses every Sunday, the book would tell you a bit about how to live your life, how he used to order people to murder rape and devour whole cities but at the same time say positive things like "treat others as you want to be treated" etc.

Have a deep thought about that. Even Religious people who like us do not believe in Santa Claus.
That thought you have of Santa Claus is the same thought Atheists/Agnostics have regarding the bible.
I swear to god (pun intended)

What I don’t get is that with things like murder, rape, suicide, crime, war, and oppression, people are concerned about annihilating something that teaches love, redemption, and life after death.

You do realize that rape, murders etc are also in the bible right?
People forget so quickly and blocks out the absolutely insane stuff you can read about in the bible.

Moses wasn´t a particularly nice person as well. Screaming at the army because they did not kill every women.

Also if you rape a woman and you are caught in the act, pay 50 pieces of silver to the dad and marry her because you have violated her.

If you are not caught in the act, please continue.

In "reality" this "God" is a psychopathic killer but Christians don´t want to read about that even though it´s there in their own bible.

 

[William Levesque]

There's many way to read the Bible, I personally take it as being a normal book with a deeper meaning than a religious tool. Some stuff in there is very interesting, but it's not what's written black on white (or yellow-ish)

 

[Hampus Andersson]

And how many ways do you read this? Looks like plain literal english to me.

2 Samuel 24:1-17 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

So the king said to Joab and the army commanders with him, "Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are." But Joab replied to the king, "May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?"

The king's word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.

After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.

After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, O LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing."

Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David's seer: "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' "

So Gad went to David and said to him, "Shall there come upon you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me."

David said to Gad, "I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men."

So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, "I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall upon me and my family."

Sounds more like your devil then a god. 70,000 people just like that, most probably innocent.
But it´s God right? He can do whatever he want since he created us...
More like a playground for a psychopath doing whatever he pleases.

And by the way... in case anyone haven´t noticed....he seems to have bailed on humanity.
Haven´t heard from him in a long long time. Quite interesting don´t you think?

 

[William Levesque]

I'm not saying everything is perfect and happy, that's why it's interesting.

 

[Danny Asbury]

See Hampus, I do completely understand where you're coming from here. Having had the exact same questions and concerns as you've put forth, trust me, I get it. Thing is, to really get into this, we have to drag Mohammed's thread completely off topic. As the OP wasn't trying to start a thread about creationism vs atheism. It was a rather straight forward question about Satan's origins.

About the Santa Claus bit, well, I would find it interesting if 70% of the population worshiped Santa like a god. I would look into the matter, and if there was nothing to it, I would simply just mind my own business. It's what I do now. I think 60% of the the people in the world are atheist, I just think only 10% are honest enough with themselves to admit it. Yet I don't go running around trying to throw down intellectually with atheist. I just let them be. I've looked into it, and I don't buy what it is they're selling.

If you'd really like to talk about this more, just PM me. You've raised some very acute points, ones I don't mind presenting the counter argument for, but again, I just rather not make this a youtube thing where one mention of God, Christ, or otherwise results in a war about the foundations of the universe. It just doesn't go anywhere.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I guess the Santa Claus issue is where we differ then.
For me if the whole world believed in Santa Claus being real and that he every Christmas visited every child with toys my head would explode, i could not just sit and observe the idiocy.

I don´t have a problem with spirituality, it´s Religion i have a problem with.
If you believe in a higher power of sorts that´s fine too.
But western religions is much more then that and much more dangerous for the human species.
It´s a system that has been designed for various reasons.

 

[Lee Knight]

Then could you perhaps sum up what Jesus actually did during those 30 years with a couple of sentences?

After searching most of the night unsuccessfully for the print-outs I had so I could re-familiarize myself with the subject I came back here & after a quick read started to think "Bugger it, why post, thats another potentially interesting discussion thats degenerated..." but anyway, I was asked a question so I'll try to answer as best I can....

What I DO have is trapped on an old floppy drive I can no longer access so Im going to VERY briefly go over the gist of what I can remember...

1st of all, it's not 30years missing but 18years which is part of the reason I posted that Wiki link about the Gospel of Thomas, from there it's not hard to find more information...

Anyway, young Jesus was always performing 'miracles' of some form or another (for example; wished another boy dead, making clay birds on the Sabbath [remember, Thou shalt not work on the Sabbath?] & then bringing them to life e.t.c), this was causing troubles for his parents due to the others in the village/town/whatever & their concerns so they left & traveled east.

In this time Jesus grew up was sent to several teachers but there was nothing they could teach him as he either already knew it & often refuted successfully his teachers.
He continued to perform 'miracles' although he apparently learnt some self control & then after a his father Joseph died made their way back slowly to Galilee learning the trde of a carpenter on the way.

Now, here's the thing, last night while searching for where I had downloaded these pages back in '98/'99 I was unable to find it but DID find reference to one of the 'books' I'd downloaded which was originally written in the late 1800's by a bloke who claimed to have gone traveling & researching this topic.
It turns out that a decade or so later that this author had basically made it all up & hadn't even been on his journey.
So most of what I HAD read was a lie.
But if you do go through some that 'Thomas' link I posted before you will find that there ARE stories in it about Jesus up to the age of 12...

Anyway, Ive spent more time stuffing about on this topic then I wanted to or that Im happy about having done so, after all, thats a fair amount of track building time this insomniac has missed out on.

My apologies to everyone for having steered further off the topic of the original post.

 

[Danny Asbury]

I guess the Santa Claus issue is where we differ then.
For me if the whole world believed in Santa Claus being real and that he every Christmas visited every child with toys my head would explode, i could not just sit and observe the idiocy.

I don´t have a problem with spirituality, it´s Religion i have a problem with.
If you believe in a higher power of sorts that´s fine too.
But western religions is much more then that and much more dangerous for the human species.
It´s a system that has been designed for various reasons.

Ah, yes, now you're talking about religious systems. I think we feel much the same way about this, as I completely agree with the part I highlighted above.