Is it Sim or Arcade?

Msportdan

@Simberia
I cant make my mind up....

what you guys thinks. It feels like an shift 2 -ish racer with a sort of edgy handling thrown in.. The AI are fast but seem like from an arcade game! They bash you cut corners...etc

Must admit the FFb is very good but does it hide a simple physics system? Can I have some opinions please? Unbiast if possible, maybe compared to AC & RF2 GSCe.
 
Actually, just about any forum on the internet. I usually leave them alone, but sometimes when I have a slow day at work I can't resist harassing the trolls. :laugh:
The forums I usually use dont allow calling other users fanboys, trolls or any other disrespectfull names....
And offtopic post are usually not permited also...
I came in here to read the discussion about R3E being more sim or more arcade just to find out that the last 8 posts have nothing to do with the thread title... talking about trolling...:O_o:
 
Hmm, you can read this conversations in almost all the sim/racing forums. I personally think it leads to nothing. It's just writing down the own arguments and facts, but never giving up ones position.
For me it's a good "sim" when I get the right feeling and think 'hey, this feels plausible'... and of course there have to be nice guys to race with and have thrilling races. No more, no less!

Absolutely, what I found by taking a quick look is that (simply speaking) at the Assetto Corsa Forum there are a lot of complaints taking any other Sim as a reference "how it is done" like here or at Steam there are a lot of complaints about R3E and any other Sim is token as a reference for "how they`ve done it better" - I surely want to have R3E improved but I don`t waste my time with "what ifs" anymore`- it destroys the actual fun in racing cause it simply narrows my view into a tunnel-view were only issues, bugs and incidents (and what I urgently wanna get at once !but the ugly devs refusing to give me what I want - blame them !) are existing and nothing else anymore...
 
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The forums I usually use dont allow calling other users fanboys, trolls or any other disrespectfull names....
And offtopic post are usually not permited also...
I came in here to read the discussion about R3E being more sim or more arcade just to find out that the last 8 posts have nothing to do with the thread title... talking about trolling...:O_o:

I wasn't referring to you, thanks though. I've frequented plenty of forums that say they ban name calling and off-topic posts, I've never seen one successfully and totally rid their forums of said infractions. :rolleyes: And judging by the amount of likes/agrees/winners my comments got, I don't think the community was too bothered by me standing up for/defending R3E/S3. :thumbsup: If the mods see fit to ban me though, I'll leave.

Back on topic, there's really no questions about whether R3E is a sim or arcade racer, it's not an arcade racer. It's not the best or most complete sim around (ahem, still in beta) but if it was an arcade racer I could let my non-sim friends jump on and they'd have no problem getting around a track while keeping their foot flat on the throttle (a la Need for Speed), in my experience that's not the case with R3E.
 
You don't understand the meaning of "beta", do you? These things will probably be implemented but the game is still in development. You make a few good points in your arguments, but the way you present them is atrocious and opinionated. :thumbsdown:

There's no other way of posting opinions without being opinionated. Perhaps it's you that doesn't understand the meaning of the words you use?

As for being a beta, this is once again entirely moot. The thread is about the game as is now, not about what it might or might not have in the future (which I'm assuming you aren't claiming to be able to see like some kind of sim racing mystic meg?)

Although since you did ask, yes, I do know what Beta means (I've been a developer for over 3 decades) It usually refers to software that is FEATURE COMPLETE and being tested for bugs etc.

But, in truth and common usage today, when used to describe computer software there is no definitive meaning of "beta" It's been used and misused in a variety of ways. Which is perhaps why you believe it means "not feature complete"
 
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Certainly feels like a simulation to me, somehow moreso than AC which I also really enjoy. They both try to simulate the feeling of driving a real car - how much they succeed is partially subjective - the physics are absolute but the overall feeling is subjective - for my brain and senses, R3E is more convincing. In the end, that's what i really want. If it happens to be a game that over-the-top-elitists call "arcade" then so be it.
 
Silly topic if you ask me. R3E may not be the top sim today if only considering a couple variables but surely not arcade (Mario Kart, NFS, Burnout, etc.). In my opinion I need enough feedback to overcome the lack of IRL seat of the pants feel, the sum of the R3E parts does that for me. It's fun and I feel like I'm racing. You still have to practice enough of IRL driving/racing rules to go fast and you pay for mistakes as you would IRL. Again, the sum of the parts (graphics, sounds, FFB, physics, AI, rules, etc.) make it a fun virtual racer.
There may be a couple other "sims" that are slightly better at one or two things but the sum of their parts don't add up to enough to keep my attention.
 
To me it seems moot.

What's the secret to doing well in a racing game? Firstly you have to control your inputs to the game - turning the wheel at the right time, pressing the pedals at the right time, using them in a controlled manner.

Secondly, if the game is nominally a simulation, you usually need to create setups to get the absolute best times.

I think to do both of those things to a high standard you either really need to know what you're doing before you start or you really need data that this game doesn't really give you.

That to me is why it isn't a sim.

To me it's about a game that has a high skill ceiling. People seem to fret too much about the skill floor - whether that's "sim racers" fretting about how easy the cars are to crash or "game developers" who are worried whether the game is easy enough for so-called casual gamers.

It's about how can I see what others can do in the game, how can I compare that to what I can do in the game and say "I suck because..." and how I can create a path, a series of goals towards the top of the leaderboards - and this is the key thing - without going and playing a different game.

If I do that, then this game has failed. Of course, driving being what it is, once you've learnt in one game other games, even featureless ones, are probably easy to master.

You certainly won't learn to be skilled at playing/driving sims by playing this game will you? Not unless you do it accidentally.

Does that make it an arcade game? Probably not, because, as I say if you've played a good sim and perhaps managed to fathom setups and maybe had someone point out where you're slow and why you're slow (I suspect more often than not overdriving is the biggest cause. Which is a path to nowhere because the guy who thinks he's going absolutely as hard and fast as it is possible to go without crashing and his time is still 1 or 2 seconds off the top of the leaderboard will either try harder and harder to push and will never improve more than a tenth or so, or he'll start to crash and get slower. Slowing down to speed up doesn't compute - even though logically, if your time is 2 seconds slower you really shouldn't need to be driving every corner on the limit. It's self evident you're over driving if you find yourself fighting the car)

But then he decides that the difference must be setup. And that's a complete black box and unknown world that this game chooses to keep a mystery.

You cannot really see the aliens lap times, sector times, watch their lap in detail, save setups, exchange setups. There's no information at all about why you might want to change setup nor what you would change them to and what differences they would make if you did. There's no motec data or other telemetry as far as I can tell.

In that sense the game is a long way from being a sim, and I would argue it's a game that mostly fails people who haven't used sims before because no matter how easily someone can or cannot drive the cars in novice mode, anyone who bought this game hoping to learn to drive a sim is not going to be able to access 99% of what that really means.

If you think "Get real" means "oops, the car spins a bit more easily now", then sure, it's a sim, but that's not really what it should be about. It should be about why is my time on Bridge in the Saleen 1 second off the top placed guy? And how can I get faster?
Although I don't really have an opinion about whether R3E is a sim or not, and actually enjoy it quite a bit, I really hope Baggdude continues posting, as the issues mentioned above are topical, informative, and written with a clarity absent from the majority of forum posts.

Henk
 
Although I don't really have an opinion about whether R3E is a sim or not, and actually enjoy it quite a bit, I really hope Baggdude continues posting, as the issues mentioned above are topical, informative, and written with a clarity absent from the majority of forum posts.

Henk

Unfortunately the developers of this game and their beta testers don't really like opinions that differ from their own.

Caveat emptor.
 
It is an interesting view that a game needs telemetry to be a sim. I assume sims like Grand Prix Legends and GT Legends are exempt because the real racing series they simulate do not use telemetry. My memory is a bit hazy but I think Crammonds Grand Prix series had telemetry so its been there since the early days. When did it disappear I wonder? Was it rFactor? On the Simbin side, GTR2 was designed to be used with Motec but the RACE series dropped this. I think iRacing was launched without telemetry but it came later. Do rF2 and AC have built in telemetry? Does telemetry have to bullt in or if someone produces third party telemetry does this transform a game to a sim?

I suspect the reality is very few sim racers actually use telemetry. So does that mean they are not sim racers?
 

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