Is it Sim or Arcade?

[Msportdan]

I cant make my mind up....

what you guys thinks. It feels like an shift 2 -ish racer with a sort of edgy handling thrown in.. The AI are fast but seem like from an arcade game! They bash you cut corners...etc

Must admit the FFb is very good but does it hide a simple physics system? Can I have some opinions please? Unbiast if possible, maybe compared to AC & RF2 GSCe.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

ive been playing a bit with gsc and coming back to RR, and im struggling to play rr tbh. Turning just feels like its on a centre pivot, just feels wrong. Still great fun, but I wouldnt call the physics in this, the best of the industries. Reminds me a bit of forza handling. Good but just not quite sim like. I know devs as andy says all reach goals differently, but Ive had 17 new cars from the age of 17, yes they all feel different in steering feel, but none of them defy the laws of physics in the way they each corner.

I could imagine this game doing really well on consoles.....


Something S3 could consider.?

some times when you post its great , other times its like a stream of thoughts that appear without being thought over , sometimes its i love this some times i hate this ... now lets port it to a console.... its as if you never read anything that has been said by the devs ; its as if you dont understand the concept of the product when it started and its concept now .
i think we fully understand that gsce is your game and everything must be compared to it , i race it , ive won championships in gsce , i own everything they have done ; yes i think Niels and the team are brilliant (i also think the guys behind realfeel saved rf1s arse ... that also includes Leo(s which i actually prefer ))

This game is being developed and more than that it is now developing in its present direction because of what we said, what we wanted,so changing its direction to create something that hits the broadest range of motorsport fans , from novices to seasoned sim racers , yes its always online because its a web based mmo experience , yes the damage model is a bit simple , yes sometimes it feels a bit off ....

But.... it still offers some of the best SP vs Ai racing ; the netcode is good the mp racing is great ... the choice of real series and the updates and tracks coming ...

Sim racing on the hardware we own is a hobby , its about fun, shits and giggles

The guys at S3e come here chat and explain stuff because they are passionate sim racers and thats really rare , check the other forums , how many devs take the time ?

So what am i trying to say , well ..i think what im trying to say is you confuse me ; i dont understand how you can write the stuff you do

i dont have the sensations you do in the game , i even went and spent an hour on gsce the other day to try and understand a post you made ; gsce is good but its still not perfect (like all racing games)
i then went and played nkp; nascar 2003, ac, pcars ,rf1 drm mod and nothing , there all different , they all make me smile ... and im not comparing any of them against each other as its pointless

Andi

 

[Msportdan]

I understand with everything you wrote. all I want is to improve the game, ive said what all is great about rre. But I feel physics and ffb could still do with an improvement.

that's all I want, that's all I ever want. to help make something I thoroughly enjoy and spend time away from my family , better. Ive hailed s3s work I really have, but without criticism how can a product ever improve. I just feel and looking at the poll I set up, (the physics didn't actually vote well.) they can/should improve this area. no?

 

[Andi Goodwin]

everything can be improved and the shame is its not instant ; ive seen this game from the CBT to today and ive seen massive improvements ; can it be better yes and little by little it will ....

Andi

 

[tribolik]

Whats there to understand? R3E has a great track and car selection, great graphics, the best sounds of all the racing games Ive played, great racing series, huge potencial... but when I play GSCE a game with worst graphics, car and track seletion, inferior sounds and racing series, you realise how much better GSCE feels, more immersive and intense and coming back to R3E doesnt satisfy anymore.... Truth be told I can only enjoy R3E when Im away from racing games for a while.

And I would probably pin that on physics and FFB.

What I cant understand is why the staff of the forum feel the need to question the users opinion on some games... Whats there to understand... I like pizza a lot but then I may taste filet mignon and like it better... or the other way around... and it may be a great pizza but if it costs 120 euros and the filet mignon 20 then what is there to understand?

 

[Andi Goodwin]

your pizza shop is expensive

Andi

 

[tribolik]

your pizza shop is expensive

Andi

The pasta or dough in that shop is actually free but I like my pizza with all the ingredients... I like my filet mignon the same way (with all the ingredients)...

 

[William Wester]

I know what you are saying @tribolik, I've said the same thing regarding the console racers. Now that I have been racing the PC sim's exclusively, when go back and play GT6 or FM 5 they just feel strange, lifeless. If I do spend a little time with FM 5 or FH 2 it's with a gamepad as those with a wheel doesn't do it for me.
With that said, I too like the feel of GSCE but I don't see as big a drop off in R3E as some say, especially some cars and tracks. There are a few combo's that I don't care for but for the most part GSCE doesn't ruin R3E for me.
Last night had a go with the latest pCARS and all I can say is it is getting VERY good in almost all aspects (FPS, graphical detail of environments, AI, GUI, and options). With that said, it doesn't feel like GSCE or R3E or AC but I still like it, it's fun to race which is all I care about. It won't "replace" all the others as I like variety.

 

[Heppsan]

I just feel and looking at the poll I set up, (the physics didn't actually vote well.) they can/should improve this area. no?

Didn't vote well??
They will surely keep improving it, but I think the poll has a clear majority speaking for it.

Whats there to understand? R3E has a great track and car selection, great graphics, the best sounds of all the racing games Ive played, great racing series, huge potencial... but when I play GSCE a game with worst graphics, car and track seletion, inferior sounds and racing series, you realise how much better GSCE feels, more immersive and intense and coming back to R3E doesnt satisfy anymore.... Truth be told I can only enjoy R3E when Im away from racing games for a while.

Well, it all comes down to personal preference and liking.
I feel the exact opposite!!
I can get a desire to play other racing games.
But when I get into them, they don't appeal me as my imagination of them thought they would..
It's the same thing every time, after about 30 minutes I'm right back playing R3E again..

The only games that can hold me longer than 30 minutes besides R3E is Race 07 and GT Legends.

 

[tribolik]

Didn't vote well??
They will surely keep improving it, but I think the poll has a clear majority speaking for it.



Well, it all comes down to personal preference and liking.
I feel the exact opposite!!
I can get a desire to play other racing games.
But when I get into them, they don't appeal me as my imagination of them thought they would..
It's the same thing every time, after about 30 minutes I'm right back playing R3E again..

The only games that can hold me longer than 30 minutes besides R3E is Race 07 and GT Legends.

Yes its your opinion and you are entitled to it... some like it more arcade like and other more sim like, others like graphics, others like a great career mode, single player, multiplayer, etc... and we have to respect that...
R3E is the game with great potencial and it can only improove... IMO... in the physics and FFB department (though it has already seen a great improovement in the FFB this last year)
And I also think that one can change his mind about the game and still be able to express his opinion (as long as its done with respect and in a construtive maner) without being called out by the moderating staff.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

mmm wasnt calling him out as Staff, was trying to explain my block with some of his post ; its really rare that i would consider the need in this forum to put on a staff badge
Im here as
Sim racer , beta tester , end user after that hopefully human

Andi

 

[Bill Baggdude]

To me it seems moot.

What's the secret to doing well in a racing game? Firstly you have to control your inputs to the game - turning the wheel at the right time, pressing the pedals at the right time, using them in a controlled manner.

Secondly, if the game is nominally a simulation, you usually need to create setups to get the absolute best times.

I think to do both of those things to a high standard you either really need to know what you're doing before you start or you really need data that this game doesn't really give you.

That to me is why it isn't a sim.

To me it's about a game that has a high skill ceiling. People seem to fret too much about the skill floor - whether that's "sim racers" fretting about how easy the cars are to crash or "game developers" who are worried whether the game is easy enough for so-called casual gamers.

It's about how can I see what others can do in the game, how can I compare that to what I can do in the game and say "I suck because..." and how I can create a path, a series of goals towards the top of the leaderboards - and this is the key thing - without going and playing a different game.

If I do that, then this game has failed. Of course, driving being what it is, once you've learnt in one game other games, even featureless ones, are probably easy to master.

You certainly won't learn to be skilled at playing/driving sims by playing this game will you? Not unless you do it accidentally.

Does that make it an arcade game? Probably not, because, as I say if you've played a good sim and perhaps managed to fathom setups and maybe had someone point out where you're slow and why you're slow (I suspect more often than not overdriving is the biggest cause. Which is a path to nowhere because the guy who thinks he's going absolutely as hard and fast as it is possible to go without crashing and his time is still 1 or 2 seconds off the top of the leaderboard will either try harder and harder to push and will never improve more than a tenth or so, or he'll start to crash and get slower. Slowing down to speed up doesn't compute - even though logically, if your time is 2 seconds slower you really shouldn't need to be driving every corner on the limit. It's self evident you're over driving if you find yourself fighting the car)

But then he decides that the difference must be setup. And that's a complete black box and unknown world that this game chooses to keep a mystery.

You cannot really see the aliens lap times, sector times, watch their lap in detail, save setups, exchange setups. There's no information at all about why you might want to change setup nor what you would change them to and what differences they would make if you did. There's no motec data or other telemetry as far as I can tell.

In that sense the game is a long way from being a sim, and I would argue it's a game that mostly fails people who haven't used sims before because no matter how easily someone can or cannot drive the cars in novice mode, anyone who bought this game hoping to learn to drive a sim is not going to be able to access 99% of what that really means.

If you think "Get real" means "oops, the car spins a bit more easily now", then sure, it's a sim, but that's not really what it should be about. It should be about why is my time on Bridge in the Saleen 1 second off the top placed guy? And how can I get faster?

 

[Heppsan]

To me it seems moot.

What's the secret to doing well in a racing game? Firstly you have to control your inputs to the game - turning the wheel at the right time, pressing the pedals at the right time, using them in a controlled manner.

Secondly, if the game is nominally a simulation, you usually need to create setups to get the absolute best times.

I think to do both of those things to a high standard you either really need to know what you're doing before you start or you really need data that this game doesn't really give you.

That to me is why it isn't a sim.

To me it's about a game that has a high skill ceiling. People seem to fret too much about the skill floor - whether that's "sim racers" fretting about how easy the cars are to crash or "game developers" who are worried whether the game is easy enough for so-called casual gamers.

It's about how can I see what others can do in the game, how can I compare that to what I can do in the game and say "I suck because..." and how I can create a path, a series of goals towards the top of the leaderboards - and this is the key thing - without going and playing a different game.

If I do that, then this game has failed. Of course, driving being what it is, once you've learnt in one game other games, even featureless ones, are probably easy to master.

You certainly won't learn to be skilled at playing/driving sims by playing this game will you? Not unless you do it accidentally.

Does that make it an arcade game? Probably not, because, as I say if you've played a good sim and perhaps managed to fathom setups and maybe had someone point out where you're slow and why you're slow (I suspect more often than not overdriving is the biggest cause. Which is a path to nowhere because the guy who thinks he's going absolutely as hard and fast as it is possible to go without crashing and his time is still 1 or 2 seconds off the top of the leaderboard will either try harder and harder to push and will never improve more than a tenth or so, or he'll start to crash and get slower. Slowing down to speed up doesn't compute - even though logically, if your time is 2 seconds slower you really shouldn't need to be driving every corner on the limit. It's self evident you're over driving if you find yourself fighting the car)

But then he decides that the difference must be setup. And that's a complete black box and unknown world that this game chooses to keep a mystery.

You cannot really see the aliens lap times, sector times, watch their lap in detail, save setups, exchange setups. There's no information at all about why you might want to change setup nor what you would change them to and what differences they would make if you did. There's no motec data or other telemetry as far as I can tell.

In that sense the game is a long way from being a sim, and I would argue it's a game that mostly fails people who haven't used sims before because no matter how easily someone can or cannot drive the cars in novice mode, anyone who bought this game hoping to learn to drive a sim is not going to be able to access 99% of what that really means.

If you think "Get real" means "oops, the car spins a bit more easily now", then sure, it's a sim, but that's not really what it should be about. It should be about why is my time on Bridge in the Saleen 1 second off the top placed guy? And how can I get faster?

Of Course you can get faster by using this sim!!
Practise gives skill.
Mostly to be fast is to really learn every inch of that track, and the best way to learn that is to make countless laps on it.

If you want to see what other faster drivers are doing different, just load the ghosts from the leaderboard.
Or do multiplayer races and then watch the replay of the fastest guy in the field.

For many of the other things you mentioned, they aren't implemented yet..
And for the options available in setups you can google on how to set up a car and what the different things do.
There are also some apps for tablets / mobiles that lets you see the tire temps.

 

[Bill Baggdude]

Of Course you can get faster by using this sim!!
Practise gives skill.

No it doesn't. Practise only works if you practise the correct things.
Practise makes permanent, that's all.

You can do thousands and thousands of laps doing the wrong thing each time and you will just get better at doing the wrong thing, until you don't have to think about it - but it's still the wrong thing and your times will still be slow.

Now you have to start from scratch doing it right.

People do this all the time - they'll play racing games for years and they never really improve mostly because they have no idea what they are doing wrong. (and they probably buy into some myth to rationalise it to themselves, maybe blame their equipment and think the fast guys have a better wheel, or decide the fast guys must cut the track or cheat as we can see in some threads in here, or they decide that fast guys didn't learn, they are "aliens" - all of these things are designed to rationalise away why, after hours or days or months of "practise" they are not better. But, it's because they don't know what to do. First you have to know what to do - in real concrete terms and then you can practise doing that)

For many of the other things you mentioned, they aren't implemented yet..

No ****, Sherlock. Hence my post

And for the options available in setups you can google on how to set up a car and what the different things do.

They're mostly "no ****, sherlocks" too though. I've never seen a decent guide on setups in spite of looking. They seem to either state the obvious and just say what is written on the screen e.g "coast adjusts the coast on the diff" (you think?) or just say things like "increasing / decreasing coast changes the handling when you lift off" - right, but so what? Do I want it to change and why?

Note these question are rhetorical - my whole point is, the game lacks answers to these questions and really has nothing useful in it that would help you answer them. Knowing already - from other games (or real life) - doesn't count for reasons I already stated.

And yes, I know you could make an adjustment you can check your laptime but this requires a level of consistency that I would argue rather precludes changing the setup in the first place (i.e if you can drive that well you'd probably uninstall this game and play a better one before you worried about setups because the game is half-finished)

If you consider all the different permutations of possible settings would take you years.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Note these question are rhetorical - my whole point is, the game lacks answers to these questions and really has nothing useful in it that would help you answer them.

You don't understand the meaning of "beta", do you? These things will probably be implemented but the game is still in development. You make a few good points in your arguments, but the way you present them is atrocious and opinionated.

 

[Peter]

You don't understand the meaning of "beta", do you? These things will probably be implemented but the game is still in development. You make a few good points in your arguments, but the way you present them is atrocious and opinionated.

You read them?

 

[Brandon Wright]

You read them?

Slow day at work and it's good for a laugh.

 

[Sean Kenney]

you must read all of his posts....

 

[Emilio]

you must read all of his posts....

Takes too long and honestly... no ****, Watson: I'm here to race, not to quibble

 

[Thomas Friedrich]

Hmm, you can read this conversations in almost all the sim/racing forums. I personally think it leads to nothing. It's just writing down the own arguments and facts, but never giving up ones position.
For me it's a good "sim" when I get the right feeling and think 'hey, this feels plausible'... and of course there have to be nice guys to race with and have thrilling races. No more, no less!

 

[Brandon Wright]

Hmm, you can read this conversations in almost all the sim/racing forums.

Actually, just about any forum on the internet. I usually leave them alone, but sometimes when I have a slow day at work I can't resist harassing the trolls.