Is God Cruel?

[Samuel Fuller]

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130501/why-people-say-god-is-cruel/
I found this very interesting.

 

[Omer Said]

Interesting points indeed.

If you believe in a god, you cannot criticize it's actions as it is it who created you in the very beginning and we cannot know whether having a good life or suffering life here will result in better in afterlife. Criticizing it, is like a beggar's shouting to a money-giver "i want more! You gave that beggar more! Why less to me?!"

If you don't believe in a god, then you don't need to think about it's cruelty. How can you contemplate about a non-being's cruelty? If you don't believe it, you already don't believe the stories in the Bible or Quran, so you don't need to think about it It's like criticizing a video game you have never played.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

If you don't believe in a god, then you don't need to think about it's cruelty. How can you contemplate about a non-being's cruelty?

Well instead of putting the blame on a figure that doesn´t exist we simply say the world is cruel.
And we realize that we can actually try to solve these problems with technology like various natural disasters and i think that´s where the real difference is.
The god-believing person thinks it´s god´s way and you should not interfere with what he´s trying to accomplish, afterall he´s the one actively doing natural disasters as if he´s playing a video game...
It has nothing to do with logical stuff like the weather creating typhoons and hurricanes, tectonic plates creating tsunamis etc..

 

[Omer Said]

Well instead of putting the blame on a figure that doesn´t exist we simply say the world is cruel.
And we realize that we can actually try to solve these problems with technology like various natural disasters and i think that´s where the real difference is.
The god-believing person thinks it´s god´s way and you should not interfere with what he´s trying to accomplish, afterall he´s the one actively doing natural disasters as if he´s playing a video game...
It has nothing to do with logical stuff like the weather creating typhoons and hurricanes, tectonic plates creating tsunamis etc..

Exactly! Fortunately we have such people like you among us so that we are not in the dark ages

 

[Samuel Fuller]

I believe in God but I definatly don't believe he is causing natural disasters. He could control them. however humans have decided they don't need God so God is allowing humans the oppertunity to rule tbemselves. If everyone had the motivation and good motives that Hampus has and many more have then im sure humans could sort out all the problems. What will it take for all mankind to work together without greed? I don't think it will ever happen. Which is why I put my trust in a God who promises to sort out the earth as he origanally purposed. And am proud to be part of an organisation which have broken down all racial barriers and is united through out the whole earth. Working toward a peaceful world.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I believe in God but I definatly don't believe he is causing natural disasters. He could control them.

So he created them (obviously since he created everything)
But he´s not causing them although he can (if he wants) control them?
Why would he even create them if he had to bother with it later, seems quite illogical.
And what´s up with these volcanoes? We know they exist to create mountains but surely it would have been much simpler for him to swing with his wand and poof, there you have it.

however humans have decided they don't need God so God is allowing humans the oppertunity to rule tbemselves.

That´s your personal opinion or did you read it in a book?
My personal opinion is not that i have decided to not need a god, it´s just that i´ve never seen him or have seen anything that would point to the fact that he even exists.

If everyone had the motivation and good motives that Hampus has and many more have then im sure humans could sort out all the problems.

But people do....this is why we are not running around with sticks and stones.
Instead of sitting around waiting for a god that never will show up we do the work instead.

What will it take for all mankind to work together without greed?

Well it won´t be religion as it compartmentalizes human beings with different indoctrination's.

Which is why I put my trust in a God who promises to sort out the earth as he origanally purposed.

Name a few things he has sorted out so far, it´s been 2000 years since he "supposedly" was hanging around.
Apart from some lines of text in a book, what further assurance do you have that he will indeed solve all our problems?

And am proud to be part of an organisation which have broken down all racial barriers and is united through out the whole earth. Working toward a peaceful world.

I´m sure you have read the history of Christianity right?
Church haven´t been all roses and happiness throughout history.

Can i ask you three questions?

1. Do you believe that god can help you in certain situations? let´s say a job interview, he helps you out a little bit, gets you the job.

2. If his ultimate goal was to create humans and watch us then come meet the good guys after we die and hang out for ever and ever....why did he wait over 4 billion years until he created humans?
Seeing as he can do whatever he wants (hell he even created the universe) it seems like he could have sped up the process a little bit by skipping the dinosaurs and primitive lifeforms and jumped straight to human beings?

3. Let´s say you have a heart attack, you go to the hospital and you can choose two doors.
A blue and black door. Behind the blue door is a team of doctors and nurses.
Behind the black door is nothing, just a room where you can pray to god to heal you up.

Do you trust god enough to heal you up or would you choose the doctors?

 

[William Levesque]

Head in the sand, ohhhhhhhhhh head in the sand !

There's still people believing in world peace ? Good grief.....

 

[Scott Webber]

My personal opinion is not that i have decided to not need a god, it´s just that i´ve never seen him or have seen anything that would point to the fact that he even exists.

i believe god does exist, for personal reasons which i will not say (no not based on religion, i don't have on or beliefs) ... but because of a personal experience in my life.

as for "if god exists then why don't he stop the suffering, stop the natural disasters"

well in "my opinion" ... why should he control them? they are natural and just that, if "he" created this world and us to live here, then why should he have to look over us and stop these god awful events happening?

these are indeed natural events that are happening, the sun, the moon and the way the world works is probably far more complex then we could probably ever imagine..... steve hawkins i believe his name is, has probably figured half of it out and has explained so much, but still i think he's wrong in some cases. (im no wizzard tho, so i could be wrong also )

we are humans & we're known to make mistakes (we are actually stupid) .. no offence to anyone

why should god interrupt the way we live & all this suffering? is it he's duty to do such a thing? or is it the duty of us as human beings with feelings to step in... in reality we could stop the starvation if every single country in the world stepped in and helped out.

im sorry but i think half the stuff i read is total bs, we are humans and we choose our own fate.


hey it's late, i might just be talking riddles or i might have a point to this, Hampus you seem to know everything, explain it all

Good night.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

well in "my opinion" ... why should he control them? they are natural and just that, if "he" created this world and us to live here, then why should he have to look over us and stop these god awful events happening?

You are missing my point. The point is why create a world with natural disasters in it, why have tsunamis, meteorites, forest fires, hurricanes, volcanoes and typhoons that brings so much unnecessary death.

Unless god is a masochist it seems that since he created the world he could have done away with such things. He´s god afterall right? He must have known what amount of death those things would have.

these are indeed natural events that are happening, the sun, the moon and the way the world works is probably far more complex then we could probably ever imagine..... steve hawkins i believe his name is, has probably figured half of it out and has explained so much, but still i think he's wrong in some cases. (im no wizzard tho, so i could be wrong also )

Stephen Hawking is the name. And judging by that whole comment i´d say you haven´t really read much about anything related to how the world was created,

why should god interrupt the way we live & all this suffering? is it he's duty to do such a thing?

So he knowingly creates a world where humans will in fact die from natural distasters and he chooses to watch instead of doing something about it.

I get the feeling most god believers really haven´t thought through much at all,
Just step 1, god exists. Step 2, ahh maybe another day.

im sorry but i think half the stuff i read is total bs,

Oh i´m right with you there, that´s for sure.

Hampus you seem to know everything, explain it all

I´d say it´s you god believers who have figured out already, not me.

But i get the feeling most of you haven´t even thought about the God part more then step one, you seem perfectly fine to assume/believe god did it, and be done with it.
And you seem to be absolutely clueless when it comes to the scientific part like what really causes earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes etc.

To me only knowing the part 1, god did it, it´s just way to little information to just say "yea sounds cool, i´ll go with that" and never think about step 2 and the implications of it.

 

[Scott Webber]

Hampus let me ask you something here, if god created the planet (world) as people like to call it, why should he have made it perfect?

the question is why? if he has the power to make the world perfect, why should he?

at the end of the day people think god has so much power why is he letting this happen, to me that's bs, why should it be upto god to decide what happens with the world and us on it? we are the dominant species on this planet. to me the "natural" disasters are part of the world, it's something we all have to accept.

when he made earth, maybe it has to be in such a way around the moon and sun that these "volcanos" ... tsunami's had to be part of it for it to work.

as god believers we all still have different personal opinions about why he chooses this to happen, hell do we even know if he chooses this very thing to happen , is it by choice? or is it truly out of he's hands if he tried to remove these natural disasters it might just end up killing billions of us?

im no expert, again i could be talking **** just like 99% of the discussions i have seen about god

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Hampus let me ask you something here, if god created the planet (world) as people like to call it, why should he have made it perfect?

the question is why? if he has the power to make the world perfect, why should he?

Isn´t the obvious answer to that "why not?"

at the end of the day people think god has so much power why is he letting this happen, to me that's bs, why should it be upto god to decide what happens with the world and us on it? we are the dominant species on this planet. to me the "natural" disasters are part of the world, it's something we all have to accept.

So even though he created the place, he has no responsibility for it.

Do you think "god" created the world for humans?

when he made earth, maybe it has to be in such a way around the moon and sun that these "volcanos" ... tsunami's had to be part of it for it to work.

You haven´t really thought about this before i can tell. And you probably haven´t read anything about why volcanoes erupt or what the (coincidental)purpose the moon has.
When you haven´t done that it´s very easy to attribute it to a creator for sure.

But logically, if you gave an engineer the opportunity to build an earth from ground up anyway he liked it would be a much safer place to live on.

or is it truly out of he's hands if he tried to remove these natural disasters it might just end up killing billions of us?

I´m amazed you have answers to some things like the fact that he created the world but not certain questions as to why.
If i play along, you don´t think that when he created the world and volcanoes he sort of understood the effect they would have on the planet later on? If not he doesn´t strike me as the most intelligent being considering his power of creating a whole universe.

im no expert, again i could be talking **** just like 99% of the discussions i have seen about god

Interesting, what makes you choose between if it´s **** or not when it comes to certain topics regarding god?

And also, when you say he created the world, do you mean he also created all other matter in the universe?

If yes, then he´s as we speak designing stars that will be born today or tomorrow?
And on top of that all other planets in the universe. Just billions in our Galaxy alone.

 

[Scott Webber]

If i play along, you don´t think that when he created the world and volcanoes he sort of understood the effect they would have on the planet later on? If not he doesn´t strike me as the most intelligent being considering his power of creating a whole universe.

play along? didn't know this was a game?

Interesting, what makes you choose between if it´s **** or not when it comes to certain topics regarding god?

And also, when you say he created the world, do you mean he also created all other matter in the universe?

If yes, then he´s as we speak designing stars that will be born today or tomorrow?
And on top of that all other planets in the universe. Just billions in our Galaxy alone.

what makes me choose between it? well my brain does duhh, it's my opinion, i think half of the topics i have seen are ****.

and when i say he created the world, i mean this planet not the universe. so no not creating all that matter. *Sigh*

really cba debating this, we could get to 10 thousand pages and you will be right also talking of god and any religion is a delicate subject

 

[Hampus Andersson]

play along? didn't know this was a game?

Play along as in me believing in God when i don´t of course.

what makes me choose between it? well my brain does duhh, it's my opinion, i think half of the topics i have seen are ****.

Well the fact that your brain made that decision i took as a given as i´m sure your forearm did not make that decision.

The point i was making was that what makes you go "no this sounds a bit outlandish" and other things "yea this makes perfect sense"

and when i say he created the world, i mean this planet not the universe. so no not creating all that matter. *Sigh*

Sure you have thought this through properly?

So basically god only created our planet but all of the rest came about how? Natural effects?
He did not create the environment in which he chose to design a planet in?
who created the universe then? God2?

really cba debating this, we could get to 10 thousand pages and you will be right also talking of god and any religion is a delicate subject

Well i think it´s clear you haven´t really thought some things through at all, at least that´s my perception of the conversation so far.

It´s only as delicate as you make it.
The fact that it´s considered delicate in the first place is quite interesting in of itself.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

i always have problems with questions like this ... not because of the question mater but the fact that there is no definition to the "god" bit ... there are about 3000 "gods" kicking around out there( In truth, the possibilities are nearly infinite. For example, in Hindu the entire living universe is merely a unique manifestation of Ishvara. This leads to the fact that there are 330 million "gods or goddesses.") so is this all of them ; some of them or one of them .... and come to think of it i suppose a natural disaster depends on who your insurance company is .....

just for reference , the only thing i believe in (diety) is the easter bunny

Andi

 

[Scott Webber]

this whole topic can go on & on tho.... i mean i didn't think anything through? hmm ok

the truth of the matter is, no1 truly knows... we can all say what we want, at the end of the day we're never know.

hell people still ask, why does god allow all this stuff to happen on our planet, being cruel etc.... for all we know he could have created another planet somewhere else and made it perfect without all these "natural disasters" or volcanos.

 

[William Levesque]

lol

 

[Hampus Andersson]

i mean i didn't think anything through? hmm ok

Well if you have thought it through then why dodge the question?

Who created the universe if God only created our planet?
And what made you think he only created the planet and not everything else?
And how did he do it? We know for example the atoms in our body can only be made in a star so potentially he made a star first?

And also if it´s not to much to ask. What was the tipping point where you came to the conclusion that the planet must have been created by an intelligent life form?

 

[Samuel Fuller]

So he created them (obviously since he created everything)
But he´s not causing them although he can (if he wants) control them?
Why would he even create them if he had to bother with it later, seems quite illogical.
And what´s up with these volcanoes? We know they exist to create mountains but surely it would have been much simpler for him to swing with his wand and poof, there you have it.

Would you not agree that many of the problems with Nature are caused by humans trashing this planet?

That´s your personal opinion or did you read it in a book?
My personal opinion is not that i have decided to not need a god, it´s just that i´ve never seen him or have seen anything that would point to the fact that he even exists.
http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=PDF&output=html&pub=lc&langwritten=E&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF
try reading this.


But people do....this is why we are not running around with sticks and stones.
Instead of sitting around waiting for a god that never will show up we do the work instead.

Its really worked so far?



Well it won´t be religion as it compartmentalizes human beings with different indoctrination's.

The Bible talks of many religions claiming to serve God but that only those who show by there works that they do are acceptable. Please dont put me in with all the hypocracy of many religions


Name a few things he has sorted out so far, it´s been 2000 years since he "supposedly" was hanging around.
Apart from some lines of text in a book, what further assurance do you have that he will indeed solve all our problems?


I´m sure you have read the history of Christianity right?
Church haven´t been all roses and happiness throughout history.

See above.

Can i ask you three questions?

1. Do you believe that god can help you in certain situations? let´s say a job interview, he helps you out a little bit, gets you the job.

He certainly helps in many ways. for example I go around knocking on peoples doors to try and share with them the good news offered in the bible. I certainly couldn't do that without help. He also promises in Mathew 6:33,34 that if you put the kingdom first in your life he will ensure you have the thing you need.

2. If his ultimate goal was to create humans and watch us then come meet the good guys after we die and hang out for ever and ever....why did he wait over 4 billion years until he created humans?
Seeing as he can do whatever he wants (hell he even created the universe) it seems like he could have sped up the process a little bit by skipping the dinosaurs and primitive lifeforms and jumped straight to human beings?

Maybe he enjoyed making things?

3. Let´s say you have a heart attack, you go to the hospital and you can choose two doors.
A blue and black door. Behind the blue door is a team of doctors and nurses.
Behind the black door is nothing, just a room where you can pray to god to heal you up.

Do you trust god enough to heal you up or would you choose the doctors?

I would go through the blue door. Praying for God to help the doctors and nurses do there job well.

 

[Samuel Fuller]

Well instead of putting the blame on a figure that doesn´t exist we simply say the world is cruel.
And we realize that we can actually try to solve these problems with technology like various natural disasters and i think that´s where the real difference is.
The god-believing person thinks it´s god´s way and you should not interfere with what he´s trying to accomplish, afterall he´s the one actively doing natural disasters as if he´s playing a video game...
It has nothing to do with logical stuff like the weather creating typhoons and hurricanes, tectonic plates creating tsunamis etc..

Oh and did you read the whole artical or just the first page?

 

[Scott Webber]

And also if it´s not to much to ask. What was the tipping point where you came to the conclusion that the planet must have been created by an intelligent life form?

aww that;'s cheeky, i believe to choose that's what happened deep down in my mind

we all choose to believe what we want to believe, it's called religion / faith / opinion.

Who created the universe if God only created our planet? because that's my belief always has been, i also found this tonight which stephen hawkings said
"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing,"


And what made you think he only created the planet and not everything else? because i believe the universe just came about it hasn't been proved either way and probably wont be either because there could always be a higher divinity no matter how far science goes. That's what faith is all about.

And how did he do it? We know for example the atoms in our body can only be made in a star so potentially he made a star first? the seven days of creation, as said in the bible... does not literally mean 7 days tho, could mean 6,000 years. in the hands of god, he said.. " let their be light" .... so there was light, so ofcourse you'd think he said "let there be a planet" ?


Hampus i get where your coming from totally, i know this is a good debate going, and it could continue forever, but to me the clear answer is , it's what we choose to believe at the end of the day