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I wish to remove the blue flag rule :)

Discussion in 'Presto GP' started by Nicolai Nicholson, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. I have though about this a long time, the blue flag rule does not work perfectly, and I think the slower cars on average lose too much time, and often it greatly affects their race. The rule is a bit diffuse, when exactly does the car ahead have to give way, it depends on the situations, and they are never the same.

    When I ask myself the question, what is the purpose of this rule, I have troubble finding good arguements. The only thing I can think of is that if you are on a track where it is virtually impossible to pass you could end up with a situation where the faster driver is not able to pass the slower driver, but that would not be common I think and would be "part of the race" so to speak.

    So my point is, I can only see good things comming from removing the rule. What do you all think? Below is the idea further explained, it is taken from the second post in the New members thread, if you read the whole post you'll see it in a larger context:

    Lapping slower cars
    A new feature at Presto GP is that we do not use blue flag, in other words the car 1 lap behind do not need to give way, the car 1 lap ahead must pass him. This shifts the responsibillity and challenge from the presumed less skilled driver ahead that has to use his mirrors to the presumed more skilled driver behind with a perfect view of the situation.

    It will be like normal overtaking except the car ahead has no interest in defending, he is losing ground all the time the faster car is at his tail, so he would naturally want the faster driver ahead (but not in a way that cost him much time). From the faster driver’s perspective it will rather be a fun little challenge, passing a driver that is much slower than him and not interested in defending.
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  2. I have thought of this too. Basically what you mean is that the lapped driver drives normally, like he does for every lap. He can give up or continue at normal racing speed. The time difference between the first and the last is significant enough to make the pass easy. No blocking, none what so ever and the minute the lapper has the frontwing beside the reartire, you have to give up.

    Damn, there was a real good video that showed what it is like but Bernie removed it..

    Like this, but safe:

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  3. Valerio Vinassa

    Valerio Vinassa
    PrestoGP Veteran

    well now the words at blue flags specialist :D is a nice point this we are all Gentlemen drivers so the only thing that we must do is a usually attitude. Sometime happen to me blue flag :) and think that never happened I blocked someone and think also other drivers use this style this good combination born from patience eyes and calculation between fast and lower drivers what we are. Im happy if remove blue flags because when you take the Blue after 3 time if you dont let pass you take black flag and often happen that you must let pass 3 or 4 cars with 2 or 3 sec of difference at last cost you about 30 or 40sec the race is over:(.,like this season much better find a safe place for pass is better for both. We must remember one thing no more advice when the lapping come but the XD or mirrors can help us.I vote for remove blue flag.
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  4. Just to make clear, I am not just talking about removing the blue flag that the game shows (we don't have that either way, flag rules turned off), I am giving the responsibillity to the faster driver, all the lapped driver needs to do is not defend/block :)

    Only practical difference from what we are used to is that there is no uncertainty which car should move off racing line, and seeing slower car slow down to let someone past should be a rear sight. I think this would make the process much smoother in general.

    The stuff in bold I do not agree 100% with. Preferably not give up/slow down. And the faster car behind have the responsibillity to be predictable, so that the slower guy ahead knows when the front wing is beside his rear tyre :)
  5. Ive just read this so my opinion about this is not too detailed but one thing that comes to my mind is that if there is no blue flag then the lapped driver really has to always defend because

    1st it would be unfair for one of the leaders if e.g. the lapped driver defends against the race leader but not against the second

    2nd even more important there can (and probably will) happen misunderstandings because the driver who laps cant be sure if the lapped driver will defend or not

    but my first impressions about this are that its not a bad idea
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  6. +1
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  7. I don't understand your logic, why must one always defend and not never defend to make it fair?

    The point is that he will not defend against anybody that is a lap ahead because that is what gains his race the most. Purposely trying to block/defend a spesific driver would clearly be against Gentleman principals.
  8. Now I get it, in other words a bit like endurance racing where e.g. GT cars stay on the racing line when being lapped by a LMP?
    Sounds good
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  9. Reik Major

    Reik Major
    Premium Member

    Yeah I think Nicos suggestion is the best way to make it
    - less time consuming for the lapped driver
    - as safe as possible
    - as fair as possible for all parties
    - and as predictable as possible.

    From my point of view there's finally one big requirement:

    All drivers should agree and behave like this later in a race.

    Why? If we want the fast drivers to lap in the process of a "normal" pass, they most likely have to follow the slower car very close through a corner section to bring themselves in a good position for a controlled pass. So if the slower driver would make something unexpected it would become very dangerous.

    But if we can trust in all drivers to behave like Nico mentions, I think it would be the best solution. :thumbsup: That's why I plead for 100% acceptance (I would do so for every system we finally like to choose)
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Tim McIver

    Tim McIver
    PrestoGP Veteran Premium Member

    As always, I'm very happy to abide by this rule if the majority prefer it, however...

    I'm not a fan of this idea. I certainly want us to minimise the way lapping compromises the slower guys race. I certainly want to minimise accidents that result from unpredictable driving from the faster or the slower car.

    I don't think people should be racing one another who are on different laps. In my experience there are some drivers who are a bit slower but know how to handle the car and I have great confidence in whether I'm fighting for position or lapping. There are other drivers who are newer (and we want them in the league because their attitude is right!) but who are not in quite as much control. The number one way that races are destroyed, fun ruined and motivation crushed is from cars making contact. In my mind, cars are most likely to make contact during overtaking. I think that this rule change would significantly increase crashes in our races.

    I also know that I will try some moves on Reik that I wouldn't try on some other drivers. Overtaking someone requires a large degree of trust. To drive around the outside always requires you trusting that the other guy isn't going to miss his brake mark and spear into the side of you. If Maldonado was in our league I would not drive around the outside of him!! But I would drive around Alonso every time!! Okay maybe if his engine was blown...

    My second last point... It compromises the 1 and 2 stop strategies. It becomes a lucky dip to see who gets better traffic.

    And my final point...

    I really am happy to race with rule if people want to, but I thought it was good to put the other case. I would certainly prefer to keep the blue flags.

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  11. I am happy to hear the arguements for keeping blue flags ofcourse :) As I can understand it you have 2 major concerns (3 including Monaco):

    More incidents:
    I believe the situation will become more predictable, so I am thinking that lapping a car will be about the same as it used to or safer. In addition, the way it used to be, the race deteriorates for the slower cars when they are being lapped. If there are 20 cars within 1 minute behind you, and you lose 2-3 seconds when you let a car past you can easily find yourself not racing anymore, but allowing cars past all the time. This again leads to many more lapping situation, which again leads to a chance for more incidents.

    In my view you need to get past those slower and not so skilled driver either way, and with this system there is less pressure on them and there will be fewer lapping situations, thus I argue there will be fewer incidents. Ofcourse, if the slower cars slow down on a straight and pull aside to let you past that will be very safe for the faster car, but in my view that comes with a far to big price tag (big time loss for slower car).

    I remember when David "rear ended" Vale I think it was at Silverstone(?) last season, that was a lapping incident that probably would not happen without the blue flag rule. I think the problem was that Vale was below race pace after allowing somebody past him, and a couple of seconds behind was David who quickly gained and eventually rear ended Vale.

    Compromise strategy:
    hmm.. the way I am thinking it makes strategy more interesting, there are more factors to consider when opting for one or two stops. It will make the race slightly more unpredictable, and seeing that Reik wins 90% of our races I see that as an advantage. Perhaps he (Reik) will chose the wrong strategy, lose some time behind several cars after pitting, and when you (Tim) come out of the pits you are ahead of him because you were more lucky with your strategy.

    I agree on one thing though, Monaco could be a challenge (although it could be that it worked very well there as well, one should not underestimate the slower cars natural desire to not have a faster car on his tail).

    I knew this suggestion would meet resistance because of the controversial nature of it (blue flag is a universal rule in racing as far as I know), but in reality I do not think it will be much difference, it is just a cleaner and more tidy way to define the lapping process.
  12. Monaco is the only exception it's not in the next season calendar....
  13. Sean Greenlaw

    Sean Greenlaw
    PrestoGP Veteran

    I think this is a interesting idea.

    I see without the flags pressure is off guy being lapped he doesnt have to choose time and area of track to let by, its down to the faster car to get into position and create chance of overtaking then car being lapped doesnt fight this to hard as is best for there race anyway should hopefully simplify the lapping process, but there is also the chance that some might have extra pressure from fact of trying to be perfect in the turn/braking zones and not wanting to affect a leaders race also going as fast as they can.

    With the blue flag i think that when lapping both have to be patient until onto a straight and at high speed, a move over and slight lift is the safest and least amount of stress/time lost to lapped car, when at higher speeds on straights you could lift drop back 2 or 3 car lengths and lose only 1 or 2 secs against into and out of turns at slower speeds 3 to 5 secs or more lost when letting car passed in the slower areas. Problem with this way is really just the warnings and possiblilty off penalty.

    Best people to ask are people who were being lapped last season if they think this approach would be easier for them and would help. What Vale said with the fact sometimes blues will be regular and you have to worry about black flag also rushing there process of letting people by to avoid penalty and losing alot more time.
    So if the same approach with flags off is taken, basically that the car being lapped knows this and will stay to racing line with comfort of knowing no constant blue flag warning and guy lapping will move offline to make the pass usually this will be inside of a turn making it easier to. This does take of a good bit pressure off the car being lapped, they may have to be aware when car behind is lap ahead also with xd etc like Vale said.
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  14. True, but this has been the case all the time we have had flag rules turned off :)
    Btw, rumors has it that the vote is already clear on the fact that flag rules will continue to be turned off.
  15. Seems to be that we have a mole on the inside.. Inside of what?...
  16. Tim McIver

    Tim McIver
    PrestoGP Veteran Premium Member

    Just too clarify from my position.

    Nico and I completely agree about flag rules being turned off. The heart of this issue is simply whether the slower driver is obligated to let the faster driver through. I think also Nico said it well in his last post, 'blue flag is a universal rule in racing as far as I know'.

    Although I do feel strongly about this point, I do want to make clear that the thing I like most about Presto is the people and the way we do things, not one particular rule. So I'll state my position hard and whichever way we go I'm looking forward very much to another season of great Presto racing.

    It's also my plan to drive faster than Reik this year. Now don't get me wrong, I'll take any victory I can get, but I really don't want to win races because Reik got caught behind a back marker while I was in the pits.

    While I'm writing... I should probably put this in another thread, but in the off season I've been driving quite a bit of RF2. It's suddenly a very good Sim. I'm loving it more and more. The forcefeedback is somewhere between RF1 and Race07. I beleive Jonas and I are racing in an enduro event on Sunday night. 100 laps in big slow cars! It's not too late to join, check the RD front page!

    Long live PRESTO!

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  17. Reik Major

    Reik Major
    Premium Member

    ;) :rolleyes: :D :whistling: :laugh: :roflmao: :p :redface: :cool: :)

    I'm always glad that you guys don't loose your motivation. :thumbsup:

    I wouldn't see it that negative. This is part of racing and always a risk no matter which strategy you are on...
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  18. And one can lose time behind back markers with the blue flag rule as well. One should not under-estimate the natural desire for a back marker to allow the person behind through, trying to keep him behind would not make sence.
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  19. As one of the backmarkers, i can say confidently that this would not be a problem. Like Nico said, there is no motivation to keep the lapped car behind at all cost, more likely i just want to get rid of him, so to speak, as fast and safely as possible. That means also more drafting opportunities in straights for both parties, something i kind a miss. With blue flag rule it's sometimes impossible to play the "game" so that i can get a good draft. It is good to drive around faster cars even for one lap, very educational. I'm still expecting for a loss of time but with this rule in place, the loss is minimal.

    From a drivers perspective, i have a clear vision how to manage the situation. I'll drive strictly on the racingline, taking no risks until i'm lapped. Then i can return to normal driving. If i'm battling with someone at the same time, tough luck, in my priorities it stays first. Battling anyway slows me down so it should be no problem to pass us both.

    It does bring more luck element to the picture but i think it'll do good. Evens out the events during the race: frantic start, plateau, then pits, and once the field is spread all over the track, lapping contest starts. I think i can speak in behalf of all the backmarkers but we don't look at your nametag or position, we really don't care who it is. Everyone gets a fair treatment.
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  20. +1

    The best way is to give this new feature a try the first 3 races of this season and evalute the outcome if it works we keep it , if not then we do not ...
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