Heel & Toe...really works with Race07 ?

[mcwood]

Hi every members of RD

Actaully, my real car for going to work is an automatic SUV.
so, i don't know anything about manual gear technique like heel & toe.

However, i have watched some of good movies in YouTube for learning it.
and tryied a clumsy heel & toe looking technique by myself...and uploaded it.

Please check my movie and give me any advice for my progress.
like " Don't even think about it!!...or what are you doing ?!?! "

I really want to know about this technique...

thanks ahead for your a kind advice for a novice.

 

[Jimi Hughes]

Heel and toe is a way to ensure that when you downshift you are not putting a lot of load on the engine and drive tires all at once. By increasing the revs during a downshift it allows the engine to sync better and faster preventing for the most part the drive tires from skidding due to them being forced to run slower than the car is traveling.

Just a slightly related question, but wouldn't using heel and toe (mainly in real life terms, but also relates to sim racing) reduce engine braking when downshifting? I downshift very fast under heavy braking to the gear I want to be in, as i find i can brake much later by doing this. But if you're matching the engine rpm to the gear speed, would this not reduce the amount of engine braking force?

 

[Marian Zelenka]

Yes.

 

[Jim Cole]

Yes it would reduce the torque, but it would save your gearbox, engine, drive line, drive axle, wheels, tires etc

 

[Brendan Crosby]

Yes, but you can usually adjust the brake pressure and F/R balance in order to compensate. Brake parts can take more punishment and are cheaper so generally it's better to use your brakes to brake anyway.

 

[Jim Cole]

Jimi, this is where the game is outside the realm of reality. If you were to try and drop gears as quickly as a lot of guys do in game, you would hear a loud bang and see transmission parts all over the ground in a real car. Not to mention the serious over rev issues on the engine and the resultant damage that would cause.

 

[mcwood]

HI~ everyone.

Thanks for a big interest for my question.
few days ago, at RD dedi-server i met Bram...it was the first time to meet him on line.
as i thought, he was very fast with New BMW in power pack.
and he told me, he was having a practice against invasion from space to keep the earth... "(.Y.)"

anyway, i have still several questions about Heel & Toe with SQ gear.
Please watch two vids...the first is SR3 and the second is Porsche 997 GT3

good vids for understanding Heel & toe.

As you noticed.
1) SR3 : SQ gear + manual clutch upshifting + Heel & toe downshifting.
2) 997 : SQ gear + no clutch upshifting + Heel & toe downshifting.
(* no using left foot braking technique at all in two vids.)

and especially 2) 997 : before downshifting, tap on brake with the left foot eveytime.
this is my question...why does he knock brake pedal eveytime before Heel & toe downshifting?
i have found several vids, which showing same technique(or habbit) with a large volume engine.

thanks for my question ahead.

 

[Koray Can]

The dab on the brake is known as the "confidence dab". Here's Neil Crompton's explanation.

Heel'n'toe will allow you drop to a lower gear at a very high rpm where engine braking is stronger. Notice that in the second video rpms reach 11k on every downshift. However, as Neil says in my video some drivers are better at regulating braking without heel'n'toe. Also while you're blipping the engine is disconnected from the wheels, so momentarily there's no engine braking. In the same series there will be drivers where some do it and some don't. In Race there are only a few cars where it makes any sense to do it, but even then it's one of the last things you'll care to think about.

 

[Marian Zelenka]

According Radical SR3 manual you can use clutch or lift trottle pedal.

Here's another H&T video:

 

[mcwood]

Thanks for more vids and explains.

however, still i have no idea about
"while you're blipping the engine is disconnected from the wheels, so momentarily there's no engine braking."

this is my messy cockpit, yesterday i made Handbrake and SQ shifter
for Heel & Toe and drift....anyway it gives more fun.

Could anyone explain me about above question again with a plain language ?

 

[Jim Cole]

What he was saying is that when you blip the throttle, you are taking the pressure off the engine and changing gears so you won't have any engine help in the braking during this part of the procedure.

 

[Jeremy Paterson]

I'm reading this thread with great interest.

I've never learned how to drive a MT car. I've ridden motorcycles for about 10 years, so I understand clutching, but I've just never had the chance to learn how to do it in a car.

I ordered the Fanatec Clubsport pedals, and they're supposed to be delivered today. I'm really looking forward to learning to use the clutch (I currently have a DFGT, so I've been using auto-clutch.)

Reading this thread, it almost sounds like even if you turn off the auto-clutch on Race, you don't need to use the manual clutch. That seems weird to me. Is the game always stuck on Auto-Clutch?

I tried mapping the clutch to a button on my wheel just to get a feel for it and see what heel&toe is all about. Upshifting = easy. But when downshifting, I spun out if I didn't blip the throttle when I released the clutch, so I don't see how you could do a quick downshift without H&T unless you get all your braking done before downshifting. I was driving the 1987 BMW M3 (my favorite car in-game.)

Also, do real cars use auto-clutch? I'm very new to all this, so forgive my ignorance.

Thanks!

 

[Erik Engman]

Also, do real cars use auto-clutch? I'm very new to all this, so forgive my ignorance.

If you mean a regular manual car, then no. Gotta use the clutch. If you mean racecars, I think most modern cars that use the sequential gearbox work without any use of the clutch. Seen some clips from i e V8 Supercars where some just left foot brake and ignore the clutch other than in the start.

 

[Jeremy Paterson]

Ok... just got home from work, got my Clubsport pedals. Love em!!

But here's what I'm seeing: It almost seems like even if turn auto-clutch off, you still don't need to use the clutch.

This is a little disappointing for me. I thought that having it on full manual meant that a bad shift would result in gears grinding, spinouts, etc. Instead, it seems like the clutch is just optional.

It seems pointless to try Heel & Toe if it does it all for you anyway.

 

[mcwood]

NO...you get it wrong.

even with manual clutch mode, to avoid damage to engine it works with an apropriate braking.
but the time delay of back up of lev is different.(if you ignore clutch in mamual mode)
(*i'm sure that simbin got different values on auto/manual-clutch mode in program.)
in case with using clutch fairy with good technique, you can save time 0.1sec or 0.2sec for every corner.

sum up all of saving time with using good clutch control
then it gives you 1~2sec fast in every laps of circuit.

as you know 1987 M3, the car is very sensitive with manual clutch
so, if you drive it as you do with auto-clutch mode then it's easy to burn up engine.
do you use motec XD something? it's very helpful watching condition of engine.
if you do wrong with manual clutch, it shows decreasing value of engine(%)

if you use clutch sharp and quick way
it makes smooth and fast recover of lev(rpm).

cheer up mate~!

 

[James Yates]

Ok... just got home from work, got my Clubsport pedals. Love em!!

But here's what I'm seeing: It almost seems like even if turn auto-clutch off, you still don't need to use the clutch.

This is a little disappointing for me. I thought that having it on full manual meant that a bad shift would result in gears grinding, spinouts, etc. Instead, it seems like the clutch is just optional.

It seems pointless to try Heel & Toe if it does it all for you anyway.

Play iRacing or LFS if you want a proper gearbox model.

Its a good habit to get into, so is blipping on downshifts if you left foot brake. Not really needed for FWD but anything RWD it helps stabilise the car.

 

[Jim Cole]

Exactly James. The reason for blipping the throttle is to keep the sudden deceleration to a minimum to avoid locking the drive axle and going into a slide. Even with front drive cars this could potentially be an issue as with the steering tires locked, you are not going to get any turning done. If you are braking in a straight line this is less of an issue, but should result in longer brake zones due to slides. This isn't the case for some reason in Race as you can just pump your brake bias to 62 or higher front and have no adverse effects on stopping you just can't turn that well hehe.

 

[Jeremy Paterson]

Play iRacing or LFS if you want a proper gearbox model.

Its a good habit to get into, so is blipping on downshifts if you left foot brake. Not really needed for FWD but anything RWD it helps stabilise the car.

Funny you should mention that... I just signed up for iRacing last night. They have the 3 months for $12 deal, so I figured I'd give it a shot. One of the first things I noticed is that the gearbox seems to work correctly with the clutch. It wouldn't let me shift without clutching, and I was also able to tell that I really need to work on my technique

I like the idea with iRacing that I'll start out with other beginners instead of starting with people who have so much more experience than me. If I stick with it and get good there, then maybe I'll be able to try some Race Series races here at RD. As I've said in other threads, I'm so far outclassed here it's just not really enjoyable to race online. Gotta work on my skillz :tongue: . I like the graphics in iRacing too. Charlotte Speedway is exactly like the real thing (I'll be there again later this month to re-verify)

This weekend, I'll be building part of my "rig". I'm going to use square aluminum tubing to mount the Clubsports inverted under my desk. Hopefully, if I get it all set up right, I'll be blipping with the best of 'em!

 

[Scott Patterson]

Funny you should mention that... I just signed up for iRacing last night. They have the 3 months for $12 deal, so I figured I'd give it a shot. One of the first things I noticed is that the gearbox seems to work correctly with the clutch. It wouldn't let me shift without clutching, and I was also able to tell that I really need to work on my technique

I like the idea with iRacing that I'll start out with other beginners instead of starting with people who have so much more experience than me. If I stick with it and get good there, then maybe I'll be able to try some Race Series races here at RD. As I've said in other threads, I'm so far outclassed here it's just not really enjoyable to race online. Gotta work on my skillz :tongue: . I like the graphics in iRacing too. Charlotte Speedway is exactly like the real thing (I'll be there again later this month to re-verify)

This weekend, I'll be building part of my "rig". I'm going to use square aluminum tubing to mount the Clubsports inverted under my desk. Hopefully, if I get it all set up right, I'll be blipping with the best of 'em!

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread. And I don't mean to hi jack it into an Iracing discussion. Like Jeremy i'm Iracing to learn more about the techniques so I can be a better Simbin driver someday. But as pointed out in this thread it seems the clutch maneuvering required in Iracing (with autoblip turned off) is of no use in the Simbin titles.

"So stick with iracing then Scott" I'm sure some of you are thinking. But I can not, for the life of me get my (profane expression of your choice here) G25 brake pedal to work properly in Iracing. I'm constantly locking up my brakes. I've posted in the RD Iracing forum about this and a majority of responses indicate that I need to mod by brake pedal. I'd like to keep that option as a last resort.

Jumping back to a Simbin title I can make all sorts of adjustments to my pedals and the only times I lock up are when I make mistakes.

In summary here's my quandry:

Iracing I have to work on heel/toe (good thing), but the brake pedal is crap(bad thing)

Simbin heel/toe has little impact on vehicle reaction(bad thing) but the pedal adjustments allow me to focus on heel/toe and not constantly worry about brake lock up.(good thing)

Instead of learning more ways to drive and getting quicker, I'm finding small faults with these titles that are frustrating me and I'm getting slower.

 

[Jim Cole]

If either of the titles discussed were true "sims" then you would not have an issue unless it was an issue with your hardware. I don't use iRacing, but there is a possibility that your pedal set needs to be cleaned or looked into to see if there is an issue there.

Software can do some covering of defects by being less sensitive to the input. It is possible that simbin's titles fall into this catagory, though I am no software expert and can't say for certain. If there is any kind of software that could print a graph of the output of your pedals and you ran the pedals through the full range of motion, you would be better able to tell if there were a hardware issue.

 

[Koray Can]

Scott, if you don't know how to do this in i2 pro yourself, I can graph your pedal inputs from one of your motec log files. It would look something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/38qqL.png

PM me if you wanna try it.