Have Your Say: Force Feedback Expectations

[Boby Kim]

What is FFB?

 

[apex11]

The thing is there is an Autocar test drive of Matt Neals Honda BTCC car and the tester says he can't believe how light the steering is in the car and goes on to say both Matt and Flash (the drivers) like to have a very light steering wheel feel so they can make quick adjustments to the car when needed.
That's all well and good but they do also have the feel of actually being in the car all strapped in and the noise etc and the feel of your body being moved around.
So my point is i don't want it that real, because i may as well just use the Thrustmaster Spider non FFB wheel, i personally need it to be a bit more over the top as i would miss the extra bells ad whistles even if they be canned (its a sim game nothing is real anyway).
I like the extras RRE puts in and even better that you can if needed turn them off.

 

[Flip-Flop Driver]

Is Bodnar's article ("Why FFB in simulations does not work") still relevant?

 

[69Harder]

The only thing missing when it comes to FFB is when the wheel turns back to centre on it's own when exiting a corner. ( Sorry don't know the technical name for it, maybe Self aligning ??? )

You know when you just let the wheel find it's way back to the centre while you accelerating out of a corner. ( Everyone that have driven a real car should know about this )

Unfortunatelly I haven't been able to find a single clip on this anywhere !

Don't think any game/sim replicate this !

 

[Skidmeister]

This signal bandwidth is mostly PR bullshit in my opinion, because of...

• the motor inertia,
• the transmission inertia (if there is one),
• the steering rim inertia,
• FFB update rate can't exceed half of the game's physics update rate (AC's is 333Hz --> 166Hz, software can smooth steps if your wheel has higher rates, but back to your gpu comparison: AA makes your picture better, but not sharper and more detailed, also the AA solution would be more like "bilinear" than complex MSAA),
• the more wires in a motor coil, the more voltage/current smoothing(in form of electronic damping by condensators) is needed to avoid dangerous self-induction spikes.

Also let's consider increased bandwidth by using dual stream processing. It's been a while since I ran AC and I vaguely remember, but I thought the rate was something that was also adjustable in the INI file or something like that. Some guys were interested in standardizing FFB, but I don't see a "standardized FFB" anywhere on the horizon because of all the differences. It's more VHS vs Betamax right now. And it's certainly not in a manufacturers best interest to be only "the same" as his competition. Then price would be the only difference at that point, not a good marketing strategy.

Also for graphics I run a pair of Titan Xp in sli because I get 12 TFLOPs of brute force per card. When I max out the res on 3 monitors at 144hz, I have no need for AA to round off jagged edges because they become so small I can't see them. By smoothing steps in your FFB you are basically filling in the gaps and muddling the effects. It's a workaround, but it's no substitute for high stream processing. When driving, I can actually feel the difference between 60 and 120 FPS, the handling seems to take a hit and below 60 FPS to me the car is un-drivable as the realism has gone away. I feel the stream of data to my controller would be no different. Once the effects lag behind they are useless. You would need to reduce the number of effects, just like you would graphics options to enable a larger stream for the effects being used, in hopes they could now keep up. Let's also not forget that adding in more resolution to your controllers can reduce the size of the steps. Rotary potentiometers are being replaced with load cells, and Magnetic Hall Effect Sensors to provide more resolution on the input side as well.

 

[RaceNut]

FFB can be different for each user; it can be to enhance immersion, it can be for competition / performance or some combination of those. Some prefer no FFB at all.

Personally, I like FFB - any feedback really, that can enhance and reinforce my sense of being immersed in the driving / racing experience. I think of the various feedback paths we have as layers of information used in part, to replace information otherwise lost in the virtual space so I want as much detail and synchronization as I can get from the various feedback types. Tactile, visual, audio cues all play a part in communicating what the tires / suspension / car is doing.

Accurate FFB alone is great but, greater dynamic range and precision can have a multiplying affect in ways that are not obvious to users of the mainstream hardware. Increased range and torque can significantly increase the detail and our sense of front grip-loss near the threshold, as well as our sense of over-steer. The added benefit of rotational speed in self-aligning-torque makes anticipating and correcting slides easier. Such benefits don't have to include constant high-torque behavior as many may imagine; the relaxed light-steering moments can also be present when the overall range is so much broader.

The move to Direct-drive steering for me was a major development in my immersion and enjoyment of Sim-racing, one that I had not anticipated before. It's effect would drive my interest and motivate me to add tactile feedback and VR for more layers of immersive feedback. As always, YMMV but, speed, precision, durability, and quality come at a higher price. Personally, I'm quite happy with the outcome.

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

The only thing missing when it comes to FFB is when the wheel turns back to centre on it's own when exiting a corner. ( Sorry don't know the technical name for it, maybe Self aligning ??? )

You know when you just let the wheel find it's way back to the centre while you accelerating out of a corner. ( Everyone that have driven a real car should know about this )

Unfortunatelly I haven't been able to find a single clip on this anywhere !

Don't think any game/sim replicate this !

ha, i was waiting for that to be brought up. i was always wondering: am i the only chap who misses this, bevause it is such a pronounced movement in an everyday car (and my track car experience is zero). i have a feeling it is present in sims, just not as pronounced as in my real life normal car. do race cars do that at all? i cannot even remember from the karting i did, whether real life karts do this or not, lol. too busy feeling the adrenalin, i guess.

 

[DesKane]

God ...... Paul I had one of these xbox wheels back in the day and absolutely loved it, and there began my quest for immersion.

Next wheel was a Thrustmaster £120 big investment for me way way back in the day ...... then took the plunge investing in Fanatec kit, sold that then decided to go balls to the wall with a DD Wheel-large Midge motor, and x6 Advance Buttkickers, running through a 10K watt sound setup, with some clever people out there (Mr Latte) profiled Sim Commander to death to find the best FFB sweetspot, car and sim dependant of course, as it is different per racing sim, and have recently discovered 'Sim Shaker Wheels' which I have to say is bloody awesome.

I get great FFB through the wheel itself tweaking MMos and with strategically postioned Buttkickers on my Rig, I feel every bump, kerb and rumble strip when racing, the immersion I am now achieving is 'Tip Top'. I have done a good number of track days, Oulton Park, Brands and Cadwell, all in Tin Top Cars so at least I know what I am after in achieving the right FFB for me, and I love it.

Clearly the wheel is what its all about, but I wanted more, and what can be achieved is and can be fantastic.

For me now, it is all Pros, the only con is, you may have to donate a kidney to pay for your affliction.

 

[69Harder]

ha, i was waiting for that to be brought up. i was always wondering: am i the only chap who misses this, bevause it is such a pronounced movement in an everyday car (and my track car experience is zero). i have a feeling it is present in sims, just not as pronounced as in my real life normal car. do race cars do that at all? i cannot even remember from the karting i did, whether real life karts do this or not, lol. too busy feeling the adrenalin, i guess.

I remember I saw a direct drive doing it but can't remember what sim it was !

I was out driving a REAL car today when I noticed how natural this is IRL but when playing games and sims I have to do all the work myself which totally destroy the immersion factor !

It's such a nice feeling IRL though

 

[Skidmeister]

I believe that it's due to a combination of the caster angle and trail. The caster angle is the inclination or rake angle of the front suspension and steering axis of rotation. The axis about which the front wheels turns left or right when viewed from the side. In modern cars, this axis is defined as a line between the upper and lower ball joints. Although it's more readily visible on a bicycle, where the head tube is angled somewhat from being perpendicular to the ground. This results in the tire contact patch being rearward (trailing) of that axis projected to the ground. Mechanical trail (rearward offset of the tire contact patch vs. Steering axis of rotation) can be set independently of caster. These two factors combine to offset the tire contact patch rearward of the steering axis. This creates a moment of torque about the steering axis when the center of the contact patch is no longer aligned with the steering axis, in the direction of vehicle travel, which tries to push the tire contact patch back into alignment with the steering axis. If you ran a lot of caster it should apply to sim racing as well, but no idea if it does, as I usually never take both hands off the wheel.

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

... as I usually never take both hands off the wheel.

you don't?

haha, laugh of the day, best way ever to finish a long and theoretical paragraph, made my day

 

[TylerDurden4321]

When driving, I can actually feel the difference between 60 and 120 FPS, the handling seems to take a hit and below 60 FPS to me the car is un-drivable as the realism has gone away.

What sim is this? Don't they all decouple physics framerate from graphic framerate? I think, I read that WRC still does this, wouldn't be surprised if first party console titles would as well, but I doubt it.

And no, you can't increase the physics rate in AC. Stefano bumped it to 500fps(that's still only 250Hz FFB), but said it in a stream they a) Kunos has to keep an even playing field and b) can't tell people who bought the game with certain PC requirements on Steam "no, you're PC is not good enough to run this game anymore that you played for years on this machine". So no bump for everyone (and no option for some neither).

 

[apex11]

The only thing missing when it comes to FFB is when the wheel turns back to centre on it's own when exiting a corner. ( Sorry don't know the technical name for it, maybe Self aligning ??? )

You know when you just let the wheel find it's way back to the centre while you accelerating out of a corner. ( Everyone that have driven a real car should know about this )

Unfortunatelly I haven't been able to find a single clip on this anywhere !

Don't think any game/sim replicate this !

OK i know what you mean. If i load up any of the sims and go to a track stop the car, turn wheel 90 degrees, then stick it in 1 or 2nd and pull away slow the wheel corrects itself and the wheels go straight, that is self aligning.
I think though with sim racing being what it is, its hard for devs to show people that most of the time the car is doing all the work for you, i.e. you literally can let the car find its way and also let it do the work with cornering, but sadly people would claim it was an assist.
Its there but more subtle than real life.... in real life you are allowed to have a car handle like its on rails, in sim land thats arcade....
Its hard to explain but in real life you can allow your wheel to do stuff without you even holding it simply via self aligning.

 

[Emery]

The thing is there is an Autocar test drive of Matt Neals Honda BTCC car and the tester says he can't believe how light the steering is in the car and goes on to say both Matt and Flash (the drivers) like to have a very light steering wheel feel so they can make quick adjustments to the car when needed.

Not sure when it became normal, but BTCC use power steering: https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2017/05/matt-neal-wounded-power-steering-issue-despite-60th-win/

 

[anton_Chez]

If there is no self alignment in the steering, why can I let go of my wheel when coming out of a corner while sensing oversteer (or even just to let the car auto correct if I have used too much steering angle) and the wheel just straightens itself as I slowly release my grip on it? Am I confusing this with something else? I have CSW V2. I don't have to straighten my wheel manually that I know of. I might be confusing this so tell me to shut up if I have it wrong

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

suppose, you just have all settings perfected, then.

 

[Skidmeister]

If there is no self alignment in the steering, why can I let go of my wheel when coming out of a corner while sensing oversteer (or even just to let the car auto correct if I have used too much steering angle) and the wheel just straightens itself as I slowly release my grip on it? Am I confusing this with something else? I have CSW V2. I don't have to straighten my wheel manually that I know of. I might be confusing this so tell me to shut up if I have it wrong

Anton, you could possibly be using the "spring" setting which most have set to zero as to not imply force when there is none.

 

[JJ72]

That wheel is nostalgia for me, use to wake up 6am and race in a Forza 4 league that is half a globe away. I have had (still have) much better wheels than that but somehow that worked against gamepad players too, it will be weird to describe how that FFB felt but it conveyed everything I needed for that game to be fast lol.

 

[anton_Chez]

Anton, you could possibly be using the "spring" setting which most have set to zero as to not imply force when there is none.

I run all damper and spring settings at 0 on the wheel and in sims. Hmm, I am probably misunderstanding the actual thing being discussed. Point I was making was that it all feels pretty natural to me in terms of wheels wanting to pull the car the way the bonnet is pointing, providing you let go of the steering wheel. I might just be used to how it is though even if that's not the case. I drive real cars every day so you would think I would notice... *shrug

 

[apex11]

Another thing i noticed as i loaded up Raceroom the other day is that I have a sim seat which has the wheel mounted onto a metal beam which has just enough spring in it so that its not solid, its great because it can move under heavy FFB bumps and it moves with the in game cockpit 9 tines out of 10.
But anyway i noticed that Raceroom moves it the most so i can be going round a long corner and as the tyres start to scrabble for grip and FFB rumbles and the bumps actually jolt the whole wheel in my hands, not so much as to think the wheel is coming off in my hands but actually how it feels in a reel car...its great.
Its a custom built seat and i got it 2nd hand and not even sur if it designed to do that, but its brilliant and works best with Raceroom.