GTR2: Why are Modern Sims Still Not as Good?

[Paul Jeffrey]

GTR2 is 11 years old, features a series that no longer exists and was developed for technology less advanced than a modern smart phone. Unbelievably it's still one of the best sims available today.

What I want to know is why? Why in the last 10 + years have some of the many awesome features found in this now long forgotten game not made their way into something more modern? Ok granted many different games feature some of the bits in GTR2, but no single title has taken what was already an incredible base and expanded upon it with the aid of much advanced technology we now have at our disposal.

Driving School? Check
Fully animated pit workers? Check
Animated flag marshals? Check
Day - night transition? Check
Weather cycle? Check
Full official series licence, over two separate seasons? Check
...and the list goes on and on...

Simply put GTR2 was massively overdeveloped, period. SimBin Studios quite literally took every single aspect of the then premier GT racing series in the world and recreated it all into a compelling racing experience that still stands out as a top simulation even by the standards of today, 11 years after the game hit our shelves.

I just find it all incredibility bizarre. In very few industries outside of sim racing will you see a decline in product quality and content as the years progress like we have to put up with today. When GTR2 first shipped in September 2006 the game was a complete package, not splattered with ridiculous bugs that prevented anyone having a good time, not bombarded by wave after wave of disparate DLC content with little or no relevance to the main experience and not hanging on by the merest thread for dear life as another iteration of something that's been released by someone else already. It really was a golden time for sim racing fans, and those who witnessed it all first hand really did think this would be the beginning of something big in sim racing.

Fast forward to 2017 and sadly the progress expected post GTR2 has quite simply not materialised. The game, the official simulation of the FIA GT World Championship, was probably the very last fully feature complete racing simulation we have seen in our niche genre. We've had loads of new games since then, some of which have even been released by the same people responsible for GTR and GTR2, but none have even come close to matching the level of features and polish afforded fans back in 2006. It's down right strange.

Take RaceRoom Racing Experience for example, developed as the next GT game from the people behind GTR and GTR2, when the title first hit public beta stage back in February 2013 what did we have? Basically a hotlapping simulation with limited content, no official series licence, no AI to race against and precisely zero multiplayer features. Added to the still missing animated flag marshals and a range of other GTR2 items that haven't made the move over with time, it's all rather a depressing scene in which to take in.

Ok I appreciate Sector3 have worked exceptionally hard at improving RaceRoom to get to a level where it is barely recognisable now to what it looked like on launch day, but still to even consider releasing a game that was basically stripped of everything that made GTR2 great is simply mind boggling.

And it's not just RaceRoom that are guilty of missing out some key features considered par for the course 11 years ago, everyone is doing it! You only have to look at one of the most popular sims on the market Assetto Corsa as a perfect example, they consider themselves to be perfectionists on a mission to produce the most true to life experience possible, and they even miss out the core basics like weather and day to night transition, never mind such "nice to have" features like a driving school, proper flag implementation and multiclass racing options. It's simply amazing to realise that these features quite simply only exist in a game that was designed and released over a decade ago. Unbelievable.

GTR2 still looks pretty good on top graphics settings, still feels very nice indeed with my trusty CSW V2 and still sounds like it belongs in the very top tier of audio experience. All that whilst replicating a seriously mega international championship in a exceptionally detailed simulation that really does pick out all the little features that makes driving on a virtual track feel like the real thing. With that said and the pretty compelling physics considering the age of the title added up with stuff that no other sim has all together in one package, this is why I still believe GTR2 is, without reservation, the very best simulation racing experience one can purchase during 2017.

I love the game, it's just a bit sad that no one has thought to try and make something similar in the following 132 months since it was released.

GTR was released by SimBin Studios exclusively for PC. The game is still available to purchase on Steam for £4.99.

Like GTR2? Well lucky you, we are seriously considering a brand new informal league! Check out the GTR2 sub forum for general GTR2 discussion or our new GTR2 RDGT Championship forum for more details of the new league season. To prepare for the league all we ask is you have Premium membership, a fresh GTR2 install and these two additional patches HERE and HERE. Get ready for a return of the legend....

Do you still enjoy GTR2? What did the sim do right in your opinion? Why do features present in GTR2 still not appear in moderns sims? Let us know in the comments section below!

 

[Shovas]

Race provided everything GTR2 provides, just without the cohesive package, and also fixed some of the shortcomings of GTR2, I have the source code for GTR2 still sat right here, the temptation to go in and modernise it is strong, not legal tho

What? You have the GTR2 source?

Modernizing GTR2 from actual source, not just modding, would have brilliant results for those who know what they're doing.

To be honest, whoever does own the rights to GTR2 should consider exactly that.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Despite both companies involved going bankrupt I am guessing legally this will never be possible, which is a real shame, you should give PC2 a burn if you didn't already, spend some time on your wheel etc and the car setups and it provides some good experiences in much the way GTR2 did, despite all the hate porn I have seen about it.

 

[Shovas]

you should give PC2 a burn if you didn't already, spend some time on your wheel etc and the car setups and it provides some good experiences in much the way GTR2 did, despite all the hate porn I have seen about it.

I'm looking forward to trying PC2 when it comes on sale this Autumn or Winter. I find the new release prices to be far to high for me so I wait for a more reasonable price.

My opinion on PC2 is that it's probably the true (spiritual) successor to GTR2 and it's probably at much the same point of development (laying aside the difference in advance in technology) that GTR2 was when official development stopped on it. GTR2 is great but it does have some flaws, if we're honest, and certain aspects are not up to modern standards. Things like FFB, physics, weather system, etc.

The problem is GTR2 stopped official development and what did follow were more like random DLC than proper new improvements on GTR2 (eg. GTR Evo, Race 07, etc.).

If SMS can stick to their guns, fix the current bugs, and make the same degree of improvement to a PC3 that PC2 is to PC1, they possibly have a killer sim on their hands.

I really hope they stay on the ball. We could be looking back at PC2/3 in 10 years like we're looking back at GTR2 now.

 

[kamackeris]

Despite both companies involved going bankrupt I am guessing legally this will never be possible, which is a real shame, you should give PC2 a burn if you didn't already, spend some time on your wheel etc and the car setups and it provides some good experiences in much the way GTR2 did, despite all the hate porn I have seen about it.

Screw it, just do it anyways!

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Probably likely I would never work in the industry again if I did that ? If there was / is , no legal claim to it I would happily let it go out......

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I'm looking forward to trying PC2 when it comes on sale this Autumn or Winter. I find the new release prices to be far to high for me so I wait for a more reasonable price.

My opinion on PC2 is that it's probably the true (spiritual) successor to GTR2 and it's probably at much the same point of development (laying aside the difference in advance in technology) that GTR2 was when official development stopped on it. GTR2 is great but it does have some flaws, if we're honest, and certain aspects are not up to modern standards. Things like FFB, physics, weather system, etc.

The problem is GTR2 stopped official development and what did follow were more like random DLC than proper new improvements on GTR2 (eg. GTR Evo, Race 07, etc.).

If SMS can stick to their guns, fix the current bugs, and make the same degree of improvement to a PC3 that PC2 is to PC1, they possibly have a killer sim on their hands.

I really hope they stay on the ball. We could be looking back at PC2/3 in 10 years like we're looking back at GTR2 now.

The biggest difference really is that when we made Race/Race07 we were building a touring car game, so all focus on endurance etc was kinda lost, but when we made GTR2002, GTR, GTR2 it was pure endurance with adaptability, the menu design took a turn for the worse in Race, which stopped many people getting to the better parts of the game easily (IMHO and no offence to the designer - you know who you are ) and when we added stuff like GT cars etc it was merely bolted onto the "touring car platform".....thus Race was never going to be a true successor to GTR, even if we did add a ton of features and improve many things, GTR Evolution was a mistake IMHO, it was a half baked "Here have your GTR content" and thus probably wasn't that well received in the "Race" platform for that reason as well, that said if you take all the addons for the Race platform it has some mighty content in its list !

 

[Bjarne Hansen]

Probably likely I would never work in the industry again if I did that ? If there was / is , no legal claim to it I would happily let it go out......

Who got the legal claim to the source code for GTR2?

 

[Jempy]

In fact, I remembered a 2014 message here at RD by Sonat Ozturk ( Sector3 Studios ) when Race07 servers were down.
In this message, it seems the rights for Race07 ( and GTR2 also I assume ) were shared to different parties.
A sentence extracted from this message we may find here http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/race-07-multiplayer-lobby-server-down-27-10-2014.95349/ seems to confirm it

" During the restructuring a lot of the assets were split between two companies and due to an unfortunate oversight, certain assets such as the ownership of RACE 07 MP servers were not transferred to the parties that now own the rights to the game."

But we don't know with precision who were those 2 parties.

 

[Will Mazeo]

The biggest difference really is that when we made Race/Race07 we were building a touring car game, so all focus on endurance etc was kinda lost, but when we made GTR2002, GTR, GTR2 it was pure endurance with adaptability, the menu design took a turn for the worse in Race, which stopped many people getting to the better parts of the game easily (IMHO and no offence to the designer - you know who you are ) and when we added stuff like GT cars etc it was merely bolted onto the "touring car platform".....thus Race was never going to be a true successor to GTR, even if we did add a ton of features and improve many things, GTR Evolution was a mistake IMHO, it was a half baked "Here have your GTR content" and thus probably wasn't that well received in the "Race" platform for that reason as well, that said if you take all the addons for the Race platform it has some mighty content in its list !

I'd like to know why features like pit animations was dropped instead of improved. I imagine if things had being developed from GTR2 times we'd have such a big immersion on this part of simracing (that all sims fail miserably now)

 

[Mark Reynolds]

IIRC the pit animations thing was dropped because at that time we had no way to do it properly, and rather than do a bad job it was decided not to do it at all, you have to remember during & after GTR2 the company went through a big change, ie the split of the company into Blimey! and Simbin, therefore Simbin fell short in a couple of areas initially until we found the right people and tools to do the job, hold in mind that when we started making "Race" we still didn't have all the assets or people in place, everything after race was a short production window to raise revenue and push content out to keep the company alive, it was tough times for all, when I look back at the whole Race, Race07 + addons I feel quite amazed we produced such a thing in the conditions we had, all the guys involved in that production should be very proud, even if it wasn't quite a GTR2 replacement it was a thing in its own right.

 

[Jempy]

IIRC the pit animations thing was dropped because at that time we had no way to do it properly, and rather than do a bad job it was decided not to do it at all

For me the very good decision in order to get something perfectly working ....!
That's how things have to be done. Do them perfectly or at least properly without bugs before releasing.
If I'm not wrong, GTR2 was released and one only patch 1.1 solved most remaining bugs or imperfections.

And, of course, this nearly complete immersion ( except working wipers ) was and still is the reason why GTR2 is still played all over the world.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Strangely I have to agree, the wipers thing would make all the difference, physically GTR2 can still be up there, the progression we made after GTR2 with the physics etc mostly came from better use of the existing code, rather than extreme code changes, thus if I applied modern standards to that old code with the data we have learnt since you would have even more of a complete experience, my point being the "engine" isn't holding it back as much as some might imagine, we just got better at exploiting and understanding it, and had better data to work with.

You could say the same about the graphics and models to some extent, GTR2 was built with a system budget for that time, if you rebuilt the game with modern computer budgets the game could look even better quite proportionately IMHO, even if it wasn't DX11 whatever...

 

[Mark Reynolds]

AI was a big step forward in the Race series......but that was also a combination of code tweaks and better using the existing code.

 

[Will Mazeo]

For me the very good decision in order to get something perfectly working ....!
That's how things have to be done. Do them perfectly or at least properly without bugs before releasing.
If I'm not wrong, GTR2 was released and one only patch 1.1 solved most remaining bugs or imperfections.

And, of course, this nearly complete immersion ( except working wipers ) was and still is the reason why GTR2 is still played all over the world.

yeah and 12 years later we get poorly done pit crews by Assetto and PCARS2....
Idk... would rather have it "not well done" than not have it. GTR2 crew was not that bad tbh, could be tweaked little by little till it would reach a good level. I mean... 12 years of development, if it was not well done in the past it could be by now

 

[DucFreak]

You have to remember during & after GTR2 the company went through a big change, ie the split of the company into Blimey! and Simbin, therefore Simbin fell short in a couple of areas initially until we found the right people and tools to do the job, hold in mind that when we started making "Race" we still didn't have all the assets or people in place, everything after race was a short production window to raise revenue and push content out to keep the company alive, it was tough times for all, when I look back at the whole Race, Race07 + addons I feel quite amazed we produced such a thing in the conditions we had, all the guys involved in that production should be very proud, even if it wasn't quite a GTR2 replacement it was a thing in its own right.

It's interesting for me recollect that period and read/hear about it from a different perspective.

I was at the "other side" at Blimey!Games during the production of GTR2 (for which that team never seem to get the credits they deserve, IMO).
IIRC, the split had happened during the production of GT-legends (in early/mid 2005, I think?) and, correct if I'm wrong but, I believe the team that stood with Simbin had very little to do with GTR2 production per se, as the first RACE was Simbin's true focus during that period (which was released a couple months after GTR2), while the team that went with Ian Bell from Simbin to Blimey!Games was commissioned (in parallel time) to produce/finish GTR2.
I recall a mix of relief and bittersweet sentiments in the team when the GTR2 project was over and done.

Years later, I think the aftermath was (still is) also a feeling of "what could have been", what projects and developments the sim-racing community would have seen, if that split never had happened.
It's like a forgotten (non discussed) situation and period that, in truth, affected the current scene more than most would believe it would, back then and much later on.

 

[Will Mazeo]

Years later, I think the aftermath was (still is) also a feeling of "what could have been", what projects and developments the sim-racing community would have seen, if that split never had happened.
It's like a forgotten (non discussed) situation and period that, in truth, affected the current scene more than most would believe it would, back then and much later on.

For sure things would be much different now.
This is CART/IRL of simracing

 

[David Wright]

The other factor in the equation was the FIA GT license. Although most of the original Simbin left to form Blimey!, the "new" Simbin kept the GTR trademark and the FIA GT license. So Blimey! had no option but to leave the GTR franchise behind. Then Ferrari and Porsche pulled out of the FIA GT license leaving the new Simbin high and dry without their flagship.

 

[Shovas]

Mark and DucFreak, have you guys ever given interviews about that time? Seems like somebody who knows the history could pull out some fascinating stories from you guys

Anyone else on RD involved with Blimey/SimBin at the time?

 

[DucFreak]

Mark and DucFreak, have you guys ever given interviews about that time? Seems like somebody who knows the history could pull out some fascinating stories from you guys

Anyone else on RD involved with Blimey/SimBin at the time?

Maybe I should not point to them but I recall plenty familiar faces from the community (from modding especially), such as David Wright (then from GPL mods, later in P&G) working on testing, Tantra (track mods), as well as Roe Tengco (track mods) and Gustavo Olivera (GPL mods) doing work for the tracks production, and can remember familiar names from the Virtua-LM mod team as well. I'm very sure there are more people who may be familiar and still frequent this and other community hubs.

As for stories, I think Mark was there with Simbin even since the SBDT mod team days of GTR2002 (predating the commercial venture), so his stories would be interesting, for sure.

My stories wouldn't be interesting, as my time at Blimey!Games was very short (six months).
I got in (audio, sound design) for a bit of experimentation, mostly for new projects/drafts that would be discarded or never to be released (Blimey!Games went down in 2008). It coincided with the later time period of GTR2 development, so I did follow that close, even helped with some last minute audio fixes for GTR2 right before it gone "gold".
No fascinating stories I can share but what I can say is that, after GTR2, the team at Blimey!Games were trying to find their own way, there were lots of ideas and possible deals in the air, many experimentations (cars, tracks, materials, tech) with unbelievable levels of detail for that period (2006), which was, indeed, fascinating to see. It gave that talented team a good showcase of capabilities, even if out of public sight. Later (most of?) that team became SMS, and my guess is that also was useful.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

It's interesting for me recollect that period and read/hear about it from a different perspective.

I was at the "other side" at Blimey!Games during the production of GTR2 (for which that team never seem to get the credits they deserve, IMO).
IIRC, the split had happened during the production of GT-legends (in early/mid 2005, I think?) and, correct if I'm wrong but, I believe the team that stood with Simbin had very little to do with GTR2 production per se, as the first RACE was Simbin's true focus during that period (which was released a couple months after GTR2), while the team that went with Ian Bell from Simbin to Blimey!Games was commissioned (in parallel time) to produce/finish GTR2.
I recall a mix of relief and bittersweet sentiments in the team when the GTR2 project was over and done.

Years later, I think the aftermath was (still is) also a feeling of "what could have been", what projects and developments the sim-racing community would have seen, if that split never had happened.
It's like a forgotten (non discussed) situation and period that, in truth, affected the current scene more than most would believe it would, back then and much later on.

I think the split started maybe behind the scenes during the end of GTL production, yes, to be exactly sure I guess you would need to ask Henrik or Ian, whenever it was it was a very sad time indeed, many friends and experiences very much missed indeed, that was itself the most sad thing about all of it.

Yes, I was with the guys from the days of SBDT and GTR2002, my first works being some addon cars and the 360 Challenge addon Physics & AI .

I elected to stay with the Sweden side of things along with only a couple of other "original SBDT" people simply for the reason that I was elevated into the job position I was most interested in, ie Physics and Handling and AI, once we went commercial I had been responsible for QA as the position for Physics etc was obviously being led by the very talented and experienced Doug Arnao at that time, the choice to stay with "Simbin" was bitter sweet and not an easy decision at all, the whole split thing was painful tbh and it was hard to know where things were being stuck in the middle between two strong personalities like Henrik Roos and Ian Bell.

While GTR2 was in production it was being produced by the split away team with Ian & Blimey!, all we did in Sweden was some QA and low level stuff really, and you are right indeed, Ian's team most definitely never get the credit they deserved for the GTR2 production, at any level, during this time in Sweden we had started the early stages of the "Race WTCC" series.

GTR2 was the pinnacle of the time IMHO, and I am glad to see elements of that awesomeness show's its head in PC2, there is more good in PC2 than bad, and the good bits are very good IMHO, so it is nice to see some mojo coming back in the right direction.

Mark and DucFreak, have you guys ever given interviews about that time? Seems like somebody who knows the history could pull out some fascinating stories from you guys

No, and beyond what I have said here I am not sure I would really like to discuss it further tbh, everything I want to say on the matter is already said above regarding the split etc.