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GSC Driver Training request for general advice

Discussion in 'Stock Car Extreme' started by Rick Malm, Mar 17, 2014.

  1. As a new simRacer and new GSC user, Brams suggested that I post all my questions. I started posting a few days ago hoping for answers and these questions will help other simRacers as well. I should have started my posts with some general background so I used rFactor manual's questions to create questions below. Maybe you can give me and others some general advice based on my answers to these question. More detailed questions will be in other threads to follow.

    My driving eduction background:
    1970s Car rally using my Triumph
    2011 Corvette Z06 used at 1 Bonduarnt classes with auto cross and road racing defensive driving
    2012 My Lexus IS-F used at 1 Bonduarnt classes with auto cross and road racing. Open track
    2012 My IS-F used at several PCA DE from 1 to level 3 with in car instructors 2013. Best was InDe at Willcox AZ. Driver DE by by Greg Robertson
    2013 Started simRacing PS3,G27 for GT5,GT6 but all done with cheat race line, finished both but no online racing
    2014 Switched to PC simRacing, new computer and bought GSC2013, t500rs f1 and GTE 458 wheels. SimVibe. Triple 27" monitors.
    Reviewed iRacing Driver Education videos
    Reading Speed Secrets by Bently
    Used Nexus app Trackmaster for study of breaking and acceleration in the class driving (Poor mans MoTeC data collection and data display)
    Reviewed iRacing Driver Education YouTube videos

    Below I tried to answer the follow questions from rFactor manual:

    Brasilla simple track. 5 turns.

    Does the car oversteer or understeer, and, if so, where, and what were you doing at the time with the throttle, steering wheel and brake?
    I notice the AI drivers reduce the throttle more than I do and seem to coast by the apex to the accelerate out point. Is this observation correct? Is this typical of what you do?

    Is the apex where it seems to be or is it earlier–later?
    Can anyone give me better suggestions for apex target in both the short and full Brasilia?
    Corner 1, Just after the sign on right
    Corner 2, Just after the sign on the right, car lines up with Mobil sign behind then throttle on
    Corner 3 AI goes farther to the right side than I usually do
    Corner 4, later than I think, target near the sign on the right, maybe my turn in is too early
    Corner 5 Before the red color change in the grass.

    What errors are you making?

    My guess follow, I posted a video but the following might be typical simRacing amateur driver errors that you remember having problems with and can you verify that they are things to work on.

    Tire lock up: tire sound and marks on track indicate this vs threshod breaking. Should look at which tires with side camera I guess. What is the solution to lockup, what should I practice or how should I practice?

    Not sure the foot work is correct (what is your break, throttle on and off sequence and timing?)

    Are you taking the wrong line, braking too late–early?
    Yes wide of apex, wrong line is my guess as to my random error, Yes breaking too early and maybe TOO hard. Should I try to pick a point on my hood where the curb should pass driving it slowly? Do others do this?

    Do the front wheels tend to lock-up excessively?
    Yes often the unweighted front right (4 turn Brasilia is all rights) but this is my fault I assume. Working on finding the threshold point. Tried just doing breaking tests but did not do enough of them. I dont know which tires lock.
    What do you suggest for seeing which tires lock (front or rear)? Bias? Break in a straighter line and trail break?

    Can you point it towards the straight quickly after the apex?
    No,but I have not been thinking this way. Should I be trying this?

    Does the car follow your steering input well, and where does it not do this?
    Most of the time. .
    Sometimes pulls right on entry in corner 2 and sometimes 5. I guess Breaking too much while turning.
    Maybe the brake bias is too far to the rear?

    Today's lap on YouTube link below. My 1st view of how I am not using the full track. Not getting close to all the apex curbs. Turn 5 was the worst and the Front Right Tire locked up. Bias default: 68 F, 32 R 90%

    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
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  2. Hi rickmalm, I see you have many posts with many questions and appreciate your interest in GSC, unfortunately the issues are directly related to driving style and it's personal, so what you get are personal suggestions that may not match the your way of driving.

    When I started also searched for tips and techniques and after much searching I came to one conclusion: Practice, practice and practice a lot.

    Start with the simple, do not worry about lap times and settings setup for now, does not rely in the conduct of AI's ( humans have different reactions ), the most important is to know the behavior of the car and adapt to it. Despite the Ring Brasília be a simple track is not selective and the standard setup is good for most tracks GSC, this track does not work so well (they are only 4 corners to right).
    Note: Initially setting in setup only the brake pressure and steering lock as your wheel and make it more enjoyable for you.

    We all want to improve but this only happens with a lot of practice and there is no magic to it. At first, being consistent is the most important, 5, 10, 15 laps in a row without mistakes and in the same mean time, it shows that you are having dominion over the car and evolving, compare partial turns, with this you will know where correct or abusing a little more (brake later or acceleration earlier) - decrease the time will be a consequence.

    When you are sure that has reached its limit, it is time to think about setting setup, from here the use of analysis software can be useful, important to know the technical characteristics and operation of the suspension of the cars to make correct settings.

    The post below seems simple and despite dealing with some information about setup, provides valuable tips for those who are starting on the GSC (V8 's).

    The investment and determination not believe it is just for a casual rider and willing to emotions online, then I suggest also that disables assists and prefer the cockpit view - most clubs and leagues restrict these conditions in addition to have a greater realism and immersion.

    I hope somehow have been useful (sorry for my english) .
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  3. Thanks Wedsley, I will start learning Full Brasilia track to get some left turns. My times are pretty consistent and around the 80-85% AI level, but I still make at least 1 error per lap or two so like you said, more practice. I do like to practice and refine technique but its a guessing game right now. I have yet to string of 5 in a row with no mistakes so 5,10 and then 15 will be a great targets. Not sure what you meant by "compare partial turns". I try to compare my braking, throttle, and turning in the major 4 Brasilia turns since they are all difference radius and lengths. I am still in the stage of just trying to get close to the apex.

    Good tip on the cockpit view. I really I dont like that view since its harder to see and have put the cockpit TV location infront of the driver right at the windshield to help me avoid motion sickness and I have to use a FOV of at least 45 for the same reason. I also use RealHeadMotion plugin and maybe if I get far enough forward in the cockpit view I will be ok. Will need to rememorize where the wheels track vs 2 locations on the car dash or hood.
  4. Your never going to make 20 perfect laps hitting every apex perfectly, and yes you do want to restrict yourself to only cockpit view seeing as i think it is restricted in the racing club here. I also did a 56.5 at Brasilia with the V8 and i was probably about the same distance away from the apex as you were in a previous video you posted. The stuff your judging yourself with is not hardly gonna gain you any time. So what if your a meter or so away from the apex, the kerbs at Brasilia are steep and will spin you out so its better to be a tad further away. Its better as Wedsley said to be very consistent and to stop comparing yourself to the AI.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium

    The AI also "cheats". Because it's hard to get the AI cars to drive as humans do, the programmers give the AI little aids to make them faster, to help them get round the corners without crashing. Believe me @rickmalm there's no better teaching than getting online with real people.
    Yes it's nerve wracking at first, but don't panic. We all crash at times, we were all newbies at one point. You'll be fine
  6. Ok, will do. Thanks for tracking what I am doing and poking....

    Bye the way, how far forward can I put the camera in the cockpit and still meetrace club restrictions?

    The bobbing around might look realistic but since my inner ear does not feel the matching bumps or cockpit bobbing, then I have conflicting messages and get motion sickness after a few laps. ReadHeadMovement as setting headmovement=0 is a must for me.
    I can not play first person shooter games because of this. I can not set FOV to be realistic at 34 but have to push it out to at least 45.
  7. Thanks Tim, Need to get a few more laps in private 1st.
  8. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium

    @rickmalm There are normally no restrictions of the camera you use in club races, and very rarely in league races.

    In your .plr file, under "graphics options", you should set these 3 settings like this

    Allow Rearview In Swingman="1"

    Virtual Rearview In Cockpit="1"

    Self In TV Rearview="0"

    This will make it a little easier to see what's going on around you
    • Beer Beer x 2
  9. As long as your in the cockpit view i dont think it matters how far you are forward you are. Ive seen some people set it way up on the dash before, i personally like to see all of my windshield. Its good to get used to cockpit view as if you decide to go into other sims ie. iRacing you are not allowed any other view except cockpit.
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  10. Wow Rick, you have posted a LOT of questions. Please don't take this the wrong way, but when I see so many questions listed, it just makes me skip over them and not even bother reading most of them.
    Because if you are typing so many questions, you are not driving. There is one answer that covers most of your questions. Go out and drive the sim, enjoy it, and practice.

    One suggested approach - Switch off steering and braking & other 'fake' aids (ABS is ok if you are driving a car that uses it), set the difficulty to 90 and leave the setup almost as default. Make simple changes to gears and downforce. When you beat the AI, raise the difficulty to 91 and so on. Make simple changes to tyre pressures and brake bias. By the time you reach 100%, if you ever do, you will have taken time to TEST the effects of each setup change, and find out how it affects you personally.
    No one can tell you how to use the throttle, you need to learn, find out what works for you and your wheel setup, and that applies to so many of your other questions. Don't let all these questions spoil your enjoyment of the game.

    One important answer for your enjoyment. If you suffer motion sickness, search for Real Head Motion by magicfr (for rFactor 1, NOT the rF2 version). I cannot recommend this enough. It changes the motion of the vehicle in relation to the horizon and eliminates that motion sickness. .

    Good luck, hope you enjoy this great sim
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. This x1000.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. Keith,

    Thanks for your "learning process" suggestion. And to Troy, I do drive at least 100x more than I type. I am retired so I have the time and I enjoy learning all these details.

    Bram at RD central asked me to post any/all my questions and thoughts instead of waiting for the Driver Instruction class that are planing for new members. The goal was to help me as well as have a place to share knowledge for other new members that are interested in GSC as well as driving improvements.

    My GSC game questions come from trying to figure out GSC2013 with no user and file spec manual except for the old rFactor manual. I still do not have answers to simple game usage questions that are posted in other threads about items that I can not make work.

    I also ended up I looking through most of the GSC data file comments and web posts on suggested changes but still run into some issue that I reported to the game authors.

    The driving technique questions pop into my mind as I am driving in the game trying to improve my lap times as well as when reading books like Fast Car Physics or my documents from Bondurant class. Looking at the MoTeC data output gave me large improvements very quickly but also opened up more questions.

    I guess this style come from 30 years of working in research where its more efficient to ask an expert vs using just trail and error trying to find out something that is already known or documented somewhere.

    I do plan to create a summary and collect all the good answers to all my threads into one or two PDFs at some point and post it in 1 place and will add your comments and name to the credits. Thanks for the input.
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium

    We don't mind answering questions @rickmalm :) I think you've probably had more real car race training & experience than most of the RD members, so it's sometimes hard to know how to answer you.
    The best way to get answers is to join a club race, join Teamspeak, and then chat to the guys racing. Watch the fast guys laps, follow their line & breaking points. You'll learn more in 1 session with R.I. than 5 with the A.I.:thumbsup:
  14. I always like another opinion on any of these subjects.

    GSC experts could give tips about game usage like you gave me with the settings the PLR file. That kind of tip should be very helpful, its undocumented until now. I have very little knowledge on these game usage questions. Like how to get offline to so a grid start like I ask in
    Also see GSC game usage related questions like in the thread
  15. Rick,
    the search function is useful for many of the plr and config type questions. Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but it has been covered and the function does work.
    search for 'formation start' in this forum.
  16. Yes I have found the thread earlier and the FormationAndStart variable in the Brasilia2.gbd. I have not tried other tracks or cars.
    The thread was http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/formationandstart.81687/
    But when I tried editing the Brasilia2.gbd to the 5 different values but I could not get it to change to be a standing grip start on the track or rolling formation . I am just testing Single Race and Test day. In Single Race
    cars just seem to just start from the pit exit where is a light there and
    pace car at the side that never move but I dont know to get any change.
    Default is FormationAndStart=2 "Behind safety car & rolling start". Never got this either. I do have some problems that I reported to the authors. In game changing Race LAPS or TIME did not work as well. I get 20 laps all the time.
    Sorry to keep asking how to do this but I have not clue how to fix it.
  17. A few things here Rick.
    First the standing starts: I am currently running an offline season and have formation and standing start working in all races. I have definitely put the following line in each gdb file :
    I will check what other settings I made (if any) when I am at my game pc.
    BUT I am not sure if the same settings work for 'single race'.

    Regarding the cars starting from the pit exit - the normal behaviour for single race should be :
    you will first be in a practice session, which of course has each car starting in their pits. Same for practice 2 and 3, and qualifying. But the race session should start with the cars in formation ON the circuit, either rolling or standing. If yours isn't, then either something is wrong, or else you have altered the following setting in your PLR file:
    QUICK Reconnaissance="1" // Reconnaissance laps
    This will cause your race session to start in the pits, you then must wait for the green light to exit the pits, drive round the track and take up your grid position. You have a certain amount of time to do this (you can set this time in plr file). You can then press SPACE and the other cars will appear on the grid with you. Then your formation lap or race will start from there.
    I do not recommend using this while you are learning other basic features as it can be confusing until you understand exactly what is going on. For example you may be disqualified if you leave the pits incorrectly, or fail to reach your grid on time. Better to leave it as QUICK Reconnaissance="0" for now.

    Regarding changing Race LAPS or TIME:
    Not sure about this without referring to my game pc, but I seem to remember there is scope for confusion in the options menu, so you need to be careful about how you read the menu. If the race finish criteria is set to percentage it will simply run that percentage of the default (in gdb) regardless of how many laps you set in the menu. Not sure I'm explaining that very well. Again, I'll have to check.

    For info, there is also a definite bug in the laps and time settings in the options menu. If you set laps and time, the race will end when you have completed the set number of LAPS, and will ignore the timer.
    • Beer Beer x 1
  18. Good input. Thanks, I think the error was I did not know to hit the option in the garage to poke NEXT SESSION. Then I got the pre grid exit from the pits, sawmy place on the grid, and hit space .... So my 1st grid start was completed.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  19. You can change the start procedure in the options menu in game for single races, you dont have to go into the .plr for that.
  20. I wondered if that was true. Again, once I pressed NEXT SESSION, some the what I thought were problems went away, like it honors my LAP count. Ignorant new user error!!
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014