Grand Touring Automotion : The Big Discussion

[Grand Tourist]

/Introduction/
Let's talk cars, more specific the modern development of the sportscar industry. Does it still make sense, does it have to? We all look at it differently, we all have our expectations and our limits on how modern sportscars should perform, behave, look, sound, feel and so on... So my intention is to bring all those visions, those interests into 1 big discussion thread.
I invite you to openly have your say, upload a screen maybe of your favourite modern sportscar and tell us why you like it, maybe why you dislike a certain development in the world of sportscars....
From there on, the discussion can continue to develop, optimized with a HQ screen or video (ingame or real)....we'll see what happens.

/Agreement/
By joining the discussion, you agree to be respectful and polite towards others and their opinions, discussing only the content and not the author of the comment. Also try to mention soures when uploading (embedding) images / vids / articles that can help others to verify and investigate more thorough if wanted. Enjoy whatever this discussion will bring you.

Important, to keep a clear view on which topic you are discussing, always copy paste the Chapter cap into your post and insert quotes when responding to a particular post.
Also when reviewing a car, give us your personal rating for
1/ looks
2/ specs
3/ desire
4/ advise to developper

/Chapter One/the McLaren Senna

source AUTOCAR / CAR AND DRIVER / AutoEvolution

Either you love it or you hate it, but we'll agree on 1 fact : it looks fast and it screams function above anything else. This track monster is NOT the succeeder of the P1 GTR, is NOT a hybrid and is NOT available anymore (in case you were thinking of buying one) with a limited edition of just 500 units.
It is a development from the 720S, based on the same chassis but upgraded with the strongest monococque developped yet. It is meant to be a road-legal track racer, so focus is on lightweight and aerodynamics. The only compromise was to make it road-legal actually.

Do you like the steering wheel? I think it looks quite big, and maybe they should have opted to mount a wheel with rev counter and speedometer integrated so it could be flat at the top. The interior is quite Spartanian, and that get's me to wonder why exactly then they made it road-legal? It's a millionair's track toy car, it's not suitable for any competition and it certainly won't be able to use all that downforce on a road. One can barely stick his hand between the front wheel and the wheel cap, it is THAT low.
So that is my biggest beef with this car : why make it road legal when it's meant to go as fast on a track as possible ?

*SPECS :
800HP / 4L twin turbo V8 / 800Nm torque / 1200kg / monococque generation III
*PRO :
faster than a P1 on track / with that name, it should be.
*CON :
road-legal? I guess they want the track record for the road legal cars on Nords again? I would never drive this on secondary roads or Belgian highways, #backhurt #scratches
*Personal rating :
1/ looks : 7 / 10
2/ specs : 10 / 10
3/ desire : 7/10
4/ advise to developper : lose the rear wing

 

[Akra]

The rev counter and gear are not on the wheel for the same reason they aren't on all road cars - if you turn the wheel you won't be able to see it. It's on race cars because generally when you're racing you don't need to know what gear you're in or speed - you're driving flat out and "feel" that. That's a usability choice. It also simplifies the wheel as you don't need to run the electronics for those into the wheel now.

It's road legal for 2 reasons. Firstly, the millionaire wants people to see him in it. It's a status symbol. If you can't drive it to the hotel, or function, or awards, then nobody sees you in it. Aston Martin created the track car Vulcan, and the first thing someone did was take it down to RML to get it modified so it was road legal. You will sell more road legal cars than you will track cars.

Secondly, it's road legal because should they want to enter into GTE class, this is what they need. McLaren market quite sensibly in the GT classes, using different cars for GT3 and GT4, allowing them to market the different models of the brand. It makes sense they would do it for the GTE class too, and they've made repeated comments about being interested in GTE. This is also why the car doesn't have a hybrid system, because it isn't legal in GTE. This car is serving as a halo model, and as a potential GTE car. This is also why it's 500 cars. It's a requirement.

This is essentially a homologation special, but without the firm intention of entering any series yet. It's McLarens version of the Ford GT. It's built with the engineer having the rule book open on his desk.

 

[Grand Tourist]

The rev counter and gear are not on the wheel for the same reason they aren't on all road cars - if you turn the wheel you won't be able to see it. It's on race cars because generally when you're racing you don't need to know what gear you're in or speed - you're driving flat out and "feel" that. That's a usability choice. It also simplifies the wheel as you don't need to run the electronics for those into the wheel now.

It's road legal for 2 reasons. Firstly, the millionaire wants people to see him in it. It's a status symbol. If you can't drive it to the hotel, or function, or awards, then nobody sees you in it. Aston Martin created the track car Vulcan, and the first thing someone did was take it down to RML to get it modified so it was road legal. You will sell more road legal cars than you will track cars.

Secondly, it's road legal because should they want to enter into GTE class, this is what they need. McLaren market quite sensibly in the GT classes, using different cars for GT3 and GT4, allowing them to market the different models of the brand. It makes sense they would do it for the GTE class too, and they've made repeated comments about being interested in GTE. This is also why the car doesn't have a hybrid system, because it isn't legal in GTE. This car is serving as a halo model, and as a potential GTE car. This is also why it's 500 cars. It's a requirement.

This is essentially a homologation special, but without the firm intention of entering any series yet. It's McLarens version of the Ford GT. It's built with the engineer having the rule book open on his desk.

That is the most useful information and best comment I could expect. Thank you very much
My ignorance about this topic was bigger than I thought actually.
If you like to discuss another car of your choice, feel free to do so .

 

[dud]

Things that rotate with the steering wheel are silly. Displays, paddles, even audio buttons. What's that, a game of chase?

 

[Akra]

Well, only if you're trying to change the stereo settings whilst cornering. If you're doing that then you'll have an accident one day anyway. As always, the engineering and ergonomic side of things is a bit more complicated than that.

For a racing car, steering wheel controls move because the driver isn't expected to take their hands off the wheel, but is expected to do things whilst cornering. If the wheel rotates with the hands, then the buttons do not move position relative to the hands, as the entire system moves. There's also limited room in a car, and the driver can't do much as he's belted in tightly. So most controls will be wheel mounted if the driver is expected to use them whilst driving.

For a road car, it depends on the situation. You do not have the rev counter and gear indicator mounted to the wheel because if you're in a situation like a three-point-turn, then they could be upside down and unuseable. So those are mounted in the dash display where you can see them, no matter what position the wheel is in. There is no advantage (other than the cool factor) for putting a display on a steering wheel.

Audio buttons are on the wheel because you should never be changing the stereo settings when you're performing any move where the wheel is massively off centre. You should only be doing that when traveling straight. Having them on the wheel means you don't have to remove your hands from the wheel, and means you don't need to look over at the centre console. There is an advantage to buttons on a wheel, as your hands have less to travel and you can feel where the button is.

This also raises an interesting point about the McLaren centre console. Is a touch screen a good solution for a car, given you get no feedback from a touchscreen. You can't feel the mechanical device moving, or clicking, or your finger resting on the button/dial. I'm not so sure.

 

[Akra]

For those who haven't seen it, RML Conversion of a Aston Martin Vulcan to road legal status.

 

[Grand Tourist]

Things that rotate with the steering wheel are silly. Displays, paddles, even audio buttons. What's that, a game of chase?

Yeah you're right. I didn't think it through. It's like those Ferrari blinker buttons on the wheel... Unmanageable

 

[Grand Tourist]

For those who haven't seen it, RML Conversion of a Aston Martin Vulcan to road legal status.

I am baffled, astonishing performance by those engineers .

This also raises an interesting point about the McLaren centre console. Is a touch screen a good solution for a car, given you get no feedback from a touchscreen. You can't feel the mechanical device moving, or clicking, or your finger resting on the button/dial. I'm not so sure.

Yes and when driving, even at low speeds, with that suspension there will be quite some stutter from your hand too so it could become difficult hitting that correct "button" on the touchscreen. Anyways, it's up to the driver of the car to use its functions on the right moment, not during a lap around the track or at speed on the highway. And maybe that suspension will be more fluent on the road than a ordinary familycar like mine

 

[dud]

Well, only if you're trying to change the stereo settings whilst cornering. If you're doing that then you'll have an accident one day anyway. As always, the engineering and ergonomic side of things is a bit more complicated than that.

For a racing car, steering wheel controls move because the driver isn't expected to take their hands off the wheel, but is expected to do things whilst cornering. If the wheel rotates with the hands, then the buttons do not move position relative to the hands, as the entire system moves. There's also limited room in a car, and the driver can't do much as he's belted in tightly. So most controls will be wheel mounted if the driver is expected to use them whilst driving.

For a road car, it depends on the situation.

I had professional instructors during autocross (me autocross, the instructors are higher rated race drivers) that gave me both variants - some say strictly keep hands, and some were more open to "throwing" the wheel and letting it center on its own (for slowish sharp autocross turns). I can say that, having autocrossed both paddle styles, I passionately hate the steering wheel mounted paddles. Especially the one in the Ferrari California in which they are mounted very high (like 11:00 and 13:00 o'clock).

Or to put it another way: if I am going so fast that I don't have to turn the wheel more than -say- 100 degrees in every direction, then I can reach column-mounted shifters without lifting the hands anyway. If instead I have turn the wheel more than that then (assuming a correct seating position) it becomes awkward to work the wheel-mounted paddles, and I am at slow enough speed that some reconfiguring of the hands is in order (according to (some) instructors). I also still prefer to have a real shifter (in addition to paddles) in the center console, BTW.

This also raises an interesting point about the McLaren centre console. Is a touch screen a good solution for a car, given you get no feedback from a touchscreen. You can't feel the mechanical device moving, or clicking, or your finger resting on the button/dial. I'm not so sure.

No question in my mind here. That is dangerous nonsense. I would maybe even call for outlawing it if I didn't know that most drivers would just replace that screen with a handheld cellphone if the screen didn't have all that jazz available. I guess our only hope is in driving assistance systems that prevent the dummies from crashing into our beloved cars with shifters and buttons.

 

[Akra]

You're discussing an autocross car, where the wheel will be in almost any position at any given time. What you're describing isn't possible in a car like the McLaren Senna as the shape of the wheel doesn't allow it. These are very different situations with very different cars.

With an LMP your hands will move with the wheel and the whole unit moves as one. There's only one possible way of using the wheel. So the paddels moving with the wheel is not as big an issue. The super-professionals with simulator time will have no problem with this.

 

[Grand Tourist]

CHAPTER TWO/TOYOTA SUPER SPORT CONCEPT
Next gen hyppercar by Toyota : Super Sport Concept derived from Le Mans prototype.

Source Top Gear
A 1000hp road legal (to be)...
It seems to me that focus is changing from supersports cars with good track performance to race cars originally developed for the circuit being transformed to road legal hyppercars. Toyota is indeed looking to put knowledge gained from the racing circuit to put in the production cars.... Seems like production cars will be even costlier in future then?!
I like the looks of the Toyota Super Sport Concept.
SPECS/
1000hp - drivetrain from the Le Mans version - estimated guess of 1200kg - hybrid - 2.4l V6 biturbo
1/ LOOKS : 9/10
2/ SPECS : 9/10 (incomplete)
3/ DESIRE : 8/10
4/ ADVICE TO DEVELOPERS : make it work
On a side note, I start to really like the looks of the McLaren Senna too...or how a car can grow on you.