AC Friendly Event: Mazda MX5 Cup @ Mugello - Wed 09/08/17

[BhZ]

Just having fun behind the scenes In the end you need to spend time behind the wheel, of course!

Yes, of course. What i mean is that i often see people talking about advanced stuff here on the forum and then, when i see them on track, they can't be consistent and precise. It's useless to know how to control weight on a theoretical level if you can't control the car the way you want. On the mazda, the only thing you might need is to blip the throttle when downshifting. Other than that, just focus on driving, hitting the apex and being consistent. With time you acquire some sort of "feel" and you'll know what a car needs. Theory is useless at this level and will slow you down because you will focus on things that in terms of laptime are less important.

 

[Andy_J]

The game uses time-----to do those 2 things for you----its better to use that time on your laptime ,
the--- between the writing is the time you loose sort of

I'm happy being slower. Thanks though.

 

[RainhamIron]

You guys are focusing too much on the theory. Just focus on precision and consistency. The rest will come automatically. Theory is usefull to improve in the details.

Definitely agree about precision and consistency being #1, but I guess we just don't want to practice and get really good at doing the wrong things
I get what you mean though about certain things coming automatically. For example just through practicing I found myself starting to do some very rudimentary trail braking (albeit not very well as yet, and yes very inconsistent!). I had no knowledge whatsoever of the theory behind it, but it just kind of felt right so it started to happen instinctively.

 

[Case_]

Fun race, thanks everyone

Funnily enough, reading what the discussion here is about, I originally intended for the race to be my first AC race with H-shifter and even did qualification that way, but seeing I was seconds off pace and I can't seem to be able to consistently enough downshift without clutch and without damaging transmission in AC (and I sure as hell can't heel and toe yet - if I try, I usually don't brake enough and end up in the gravel), at the very last moment, I chickened out and went back to paddles with auto blip and auto clutch But yeah, it was ultimately probably for the better, need to practice with H-shifter a bit more I guess.

 

[BhZ]

Definitely agree about precision and consistency being #1, but I guess we just don't want to practice and get really good at doing the wrong things
I get what you mean though about certain things coming automatically. For example just through practicing I found myself starting to do some very rudimentary trail braking (albeit not very well as yet, and yes very inconsistent!). I had no knowledge whatsoever of the theory behind it, but it just kind of felt right so it started to happen instinctively.

Same happened to me. When i started driving i knew nothing about cars (and in a way i still do). I approached this sim the same way i approached every single game in my "gaming career". Somehow i've never had problems using the entire width of the track (info that i had from watching motorsport probably), so i just focused on going faster, which at the time simply was "brake as late as you can, hit the apex, accelerate as early as you can". I was so ignorant that i don't even know if at the time i used to trailbrake or not. Consistency is not something that will make you faster, it's something NECESSARY to start noticing the little things. The tatuus and the mazda imho are simple car from a driving technique POV (completely different if compared) and it's quite hard to learn something that you will have to unlearn in the future, so don't worry about that.
2 weeks ago my brother started driving on AC. We took the tatuus (i think it's the best car to learn), we went on a track. We'd use the default setup, set the tire pressure properly and started lapping. After 20ish laps he was able to lap less than one second slower than me. We repeated this for each track. Now, not everyone will be able to lap that fast in so little time, but it's evident how just with practice you get quite close to a good laptime (he would be in the top 5 here on RD in a club race just with practice, without even touching a setup). It's easy to notice the people who don't practice before an event from their consistency, not just in the laptimes but also in their braking points, driving lines, confidence on the throttle. So my advice is: just drive, you'll get faster eventually.
Last thing, i'm training at the moment on my server. If anyone wants to practice, i can help.

 

[Poloman]

I think most of you overthink it,just focus on using the whole track correctly and your laptimes (and consistency),will improve. Yeah a few tricks here and there cut off some time and help take some corners better,but anyone who is more than 1-sec behind the leaders,usually dont uses the track correctly.

The experts are of course out there , but a fast way to improve laptimes is to use the paddles with no assists ,just remember to lift the throttle at the right time, and my guess is that 8 out of 10 winners here at this site use excatly this combination , H shifter cars ore not doesn't matter, you can be faster with the H shifter in H shifter cars if your really focused on your downshifts ( blip) it also gives more freedom ,you can for example go from 5th gear to 3th gear which can be a advantage at some corners...

I don't get your point here actually,the autoblip autoclutch penalty exists because it offer consistency,and problems-free shifting,i wouldnt go without them for a race,thought i use H-Shifter.
I also dont shift directly two gears down,i usually go 5th->4th ift clutch,press clutch,4th->3rd,i think engine brake helps brake faster and smoother.

Wrong track at the title there mate.
Keep trying with the H-Shifter,youll love it.

 

[Case_]

@Poloman Thanks, fixed.

 

[Neilski]

I think I manually blip the gas on downshifts in the MX5 - at least in my head it's happening, and I know that when I forget to, the rear end kicks out. For reasons I can't really justify, I feel bad about activating auto-blip. This is despite the fact that I don't feel at all bad about activating ABS on the Tatuus...

As for fancy braking or not, I'm still experimenting. I tend to modulate brake or throttle - depending on FWD/RWD, weight distribution etc, but mostly throttle for the MX5 - in a bend to control the turn and get the nose where I want it. In real cars with the right pedal layout (and brake sensitivity!) heel and toe is pretty easy, but I've never really tried it on the G27 pedals because the missing ingredient (seat of pants deceleration) is crucial for me.

At Mugello, I was also experimenting with really chucking the MX5 into some turns, e.g. the long slowish right hander shortly before the end of the lap. I basically mean braking later, then turning in pretty violently and catching the slide. To my surprise, doing this seemed to save me a few tenths on each corner where I tried it. Am trying to remember where else I did it now - maybe only T1 in fact. Not sure it's really the fastest way around those corners but it seemed to be the most reliable/consistent way for me to take 'em.

 

[Andy_J]

Andy's Race report MX5 Cup at Mugello.

Another very enjoyable race albeit a relatively lonely one after the first few laps.
Another clean start around me and that's always a nice feeling and away we go. I had a fast guy (Lucas) who decided to start at the back to give himself a challenge and add some fun I suppose, pressurising me and soon got past me but it was fun trying to hold him off. Then I settled into a nice rhythm and concentrated on consistency and smoothness. Not one spin nor did I leave the track at any time. I'm pleased with my progress using these cars.

After overtaking a few and passing some that had spun out, I soon made my way up the field. No one really caught up to challenge me after that and I had a relatively quiet race. I enjoyed listening to the banter and swearing as various folks tripped up and spun off or made mistakes.

After about two thirds of the race I was in 12th place and that is where I finished. Mid pack is usually my place and I am happy with that.
Some great racing at the front from what I could see in the replay. Well done guys and podium.

But as usual some people could not control their throttle/brake combination when it came to backing off enough not to abuse track limits again. 3 out of 10. Must try harder folks. You'll soon get the hang of it with some practice, practice, practice. Here are a few of many examples chaps:

A big thanks to @Rupe Wilson and @RasmusP for organising the event as usual.

edited as I didn't realise names were on and you could see a certain persons name. Some track cutting pics removed. Sorry.
re-edited because the truth needs to be out there.

 

[dalehyland]

Are most of you guys using paddles? I felt like I was honour bound to use the h shifter and I've always been a paddle guy, might do a few hot laps again and see if I improve.

 

[Case_]

@Andy Jackson I'm not sure if that green car #29 is me or if there was more people running the livery (I didn't choose it, the game gave it to me and I honestly don't know if I can change it), but if it is me, I can assure you none of my ventures behind white lines were intentional and I'd even argue they didn't help me in any way. I tend to be very careful about track limits in general, but sometimes it happens, I'm sadly still only human.

 

[Andy_J]

@Andy Jackson I'm not sure if that green car #29 is me or if there was more people running the livery (I didn't choose it, the game gave it to me and I honestly don't know if I can change it), but if it is me, I can assure you none of my ventures behind white lines were intentional and I'd even argue they didn't help me in any way. I tend to be very careful about track limits in general, but sometimes it happens, I'm sadly still only human.

Hi Martin,
There were many cars with the same livery. And it wasn't you mate. And yes they happen sometimes to us all.

 

[Neilski]

I was also in a green car #29 (I just reviewed the replay to see what I was in), dunno how many others there were. I had plenty of off-track moments, most of which were just scrappy driving, but... test driving the Lotus tonight, I checked with ctrl-R once or twice to see where I was in relation to the white line, particularly on the last corner where it blends into the main straight. It turns out that I was misjudging it - harder than you'd think to get it right in bonnet-cam mode. I imagine I was no better in the MX5. So if I was systematically exceeding the limits it wasn't intentional.

One unhelpful factor is that AC doesn't flag an off-track violation when you ride out onto those red kerbs (e.g. in qually). So you don't get the feedback that you've gone too far. You actually have to pretty much hit the grass I think to invalidate a lap.

Another thing to ponder: in every real-life race I've ever seen where such kerbs are in use, the cars use the full extent of the kerbs, despite that meaning that all four wheels are beyond the white lines. They do pick up limits violations when they go beyond the kerbs of course. I know this isn't how the RD rules work, but it may be more in line with how the AC penalty system works. Having said that, the AC system is just plain bonkers on some corners at a few tracks.

 

[Mike Davies]

Andy's Race report MX5 Cup at Mugello.

Another very enjoyable race albeit a relatively lonely one after the first few laps.
Another clean start around me and that's always a nice feeling and away we go. I had a fast guy (Lucas) who decided to start at the back to give himself a challenge and add some fun I suppose, pressurising me and soon got past me but it was fun trying to hold him off. Then I settled into a nice rhythm and concentrated on consistency and smoothness. Not one spin nor did I leave the track at any time. I'm pleased with my progress using these cars.

After overtaking a few and passing some that had spun out, I soon made my way up the field. No one really caught up to challenge me after that and I had a relatively quiet race. I enjoyed listening to the banter and swearing as various folks tripped up and spun off or made mistakes.

After about two thirds of the race I was in 12th place and that is where I finished. Mid pack is usually my place and I am happy with that.
Some great racing at the front from what I could see in the replay. Well done guys and podium.

But as usual some people could not control their throttle/brake combination when it came to backing off enough not to abuse track limits again. 3 out of 10. Must try harder folks. You'll soon get the hang of it with some practice, practice, practice. Here are a few of many examples chaps:

A big thanks to @Rupe Wilson and @RasmusP for organising the event as usual.

you have WAY too much time on your hands

 

[Christian Moreau]

Andy's Race report MX5 Cup at Mugello.

Another very enjoyable race albeit a relatively lonely one after the first few laps.
Another clean start around me and that's always a nice feeling and away we go. I had a fast guy (Lucas) who decided to start at the back to give himself a challenge and add some fun I suppose, pressurising me and soon got past me but it was fun trying to hold him off. Then I settled into a nice rhythm and concentrated on consistency and smoothness. Not one spin nor did I leave the track at any time. I'm pleased with my progress using these cars.

After overtaking a few and passing some that had spun out, I soon made my way up the field. No one really caught up to challenge me after that and I had a relatively quiet race. I enjoyed listening to the banter and swearing as various folks tripped up and spun off or made mistakes.

After about two thirds of the race I was in 12th place and that is where I finished. Mid pack is usually my place and I am happy with that.
Some great racing at the front from what I could see in the replay. Well done guys and podium.

But as usual some people could not control their throttle/brake combination when it came to backing off enough not to abuse track limits again. 3 out of 10. Must try harder folks. You'll soon get the hang of it with some practice, practice, practice. Here are a few of many examples chaps:

A big thanks to @Rupe Wilson and @RasmusP for organising the event as usual.

you have WAY too much time on your hands

To add to this, like when it comes to any complaint in regards to the Golden Rule or anything that you deem a breach, I don't think publicly shaming is accepted on here (you have names in the screenshots). You have a problem with someone, you PM them, and if that doesn't get you anywhere, you advise the staff. That's the way it should be done.

 

[BhZ]

Another thing to ponder: in every real-life race I've ever seen where such kerbs are in use, the cars use the full extent of the kerbs, despite that meaning that all four wheels are beyond the white lines. They do pick up limits violations when they go beyond the kerbs of course. I know this isn't how the RD rules work, but it may be more in line with how the AC penalty system works. Having said that, the AC system is just plain bonkers on some corners at a few tracks.

For the most part, AC track limits are like IRL. The kerb is considered part of the track. Mugello is a great track but it becomes a nightmare because every single turn is an opportunity to cut if RD rules are used.

 

[RainhamIron]

Consistency is not something that will make you faster, it's something NECESSARY to start noticing the little things.

Yep, good point that. I guess once you don't have to think quite as much about every braking point / apex etc, it frees you up to concentrate more on the details. Appreciate all the advice in any case, thanks
And yeah I'd definitely be up for a practice session at some point!

 

[RainhamIron]

As BhZ said, applying throttle is just a way of take a way around the problem.
I'm really interested in technical details so what happens if you apply throttle under braking:
- the brakes are slowing the wheels
- the throttle pulls against that, just on the rear wheels
-> your brake balance moves to the front and the brake "pressure" gets lowered. -> more grip at the rear (important: for the weight shift it doesn't matter if you are braking at the fronts or the rears! It only matters for the mohr's circle of grip!)

- Slightly before the brake is released completely, the front will still brake, while the rear is accelerating.
-> slightly "loaded" front wheels with weight a bit shifted to the rear -> more stable car with slight understeering!

- if you release the brake now, the rear will start to push forward instantaneous.
-> front wheels get light, rear gets loaded->more grip on the rear and more understeering

Well that's just the physic behind that. How it's perfectly explained? I don't know I agree that it helps but I will just post my thoughts about why it's not the best way:
First a little picture about grip levels: If your "point" leaves the circle, you are sliding!
So braking OR accelerating = less grip for cornering. But "load" raises the pressure the rubber get's pressed to the track and therefore raises the grip limit.

In the end you just maintain more grip on the rear, so the car is slightly understeering. But the weight actually shifts more, since you switch between braking and accelerating, instead of braking and coasting.

How I think it would be better:
Modulating the brake! Don't just brake with a bit of throttle. Lift the brake slightly at the points the throttle would help. Not as easy as it sounds, I agree!

What I think is the main difference between the "really fast guys" and us average guys:
- of course the use of the track... But we are talking about the car

- we mere mortals are driving like that:

1. BRAKE
2. STEER
3. LIFT BRAKE
4. STEER MORE
5. OH SH*T I'M SLIDING
6. THROTTTTLLLEEEEEE!!!!

- the really fast guys are driving like that:

1. slowing down
2. slowing down a bit less to shift the weight for turn in
3. turn in aggressively
4. oooh, a bit more weight to the rear
5. ah now turning perfectly tight
6. oooh, the rear wants to step out
7. weight shifting a bit to the rear to maintain grip
8. and now dancing through the turn on the perfect grip limit

Of course that's completely exaggerated but it's like I think about it. Of course the really fast guys do that without thinking like that. They just feel it and have the experience.

So how to get to that: practice!!!! And not just doing lap after lap. Thinking about such things, trying different methods, TRY to feel that all and then you might actually feel it at some point

In my opinion someone doesn't have just "talent do be fast". They have the "talent to feel and process such information faster". If they do it actively or passively doesn't matter in the end.

Wow, you do enjoy the technical side eh
Now hang on a minute, just let me try a couple of laps whilst remembering all of that and putting it into practise...

 

[RasmusP]

Andy's Race report MX5 Cup at Mugello.

Another very enjoyable race albeit a relatively lonely one after the first few laps.
Another clean start around me and that's always a nice feeling and away we go. I had a fast guy (Lucas) who decided to start at the back to give himself a challenge and add some fun I suppose, pressurising me and soon got past me but it was fun trying to hold him off. Then I settled into a nice rhythm and concentrated on consistency and smoothness. Not one spin nor did I leave the track at any time. I'm pleased with my progress using these cars.

After overtaking a few and passing some that had spun out, I soon made my way up the field. No one really caught up to challenge me after that and I had a relatively quiet race. I enjoyed listening to the banter and swearing as various folks tripped up and spun off or made mistakes.

After about two thirds of the race I was in 12th place and that is where I finished. Mid pack is usually my place and I am happy with that.
Some great racing at the front from what I could see in the replay. Well done guys and podium.

But as usual some people could not control their throttle/brake combination when it came to backing off enough not to abuse track limits again. 3 out of 10. Must try harder folks. You'll soon get the hang of it with some practice, practice, practice. Here are a few of many examples chaps:

A big thanks to @Rupe Wilson and @RasmusP for organising the event as usual.

you have WAY too much time on your hands

To add to this, like when it comes to any complaint in regards to the Golden Rule or anything that you deem a breach, I don't think publicly shaming is accepted on here (you have names in the screenshots). You have a problem with someone, you PM them, and if that doesn't get you anywhere, you advise the staff. That's the way it should be done.

A few words to that:
Andy, maybe you can edit and delete the ones where the names are in it, you see what it causes...
Yes, Andy mentions it quite often, but I don't see any "public schaming" in his post. It's a litte heads up, without calling names (unlucky that there are names in the images though). While I can understand that it's a little pita for some, I actually like his race reports and he is a help at going against the cutting.
Delete the names and a thumbs up from me!

Now you two guys come in here, search for Andys post and blame him... Who has too much time here?!
If the drivers of this event are having something against Andy, let them speak for them self. You are no better than Andy...

To the track limits in AC: it's a pity that the game-limits are that ridiculous. I think if the curbs would be included but not to the max extend, we could agree on just using the ingame limits.
Sadly it's not the case so we all have to follow a clear rule. There is no way to enforce a rule that goes by "the experienced majority would agree that it's okay in this case"...

And to make it clear: NO ONE here says that you are not allowed to go wide, shortcut or anything if you lift after it.
We don't want to restrict the racing! Fight, battle, go over the limits while you are fighting, HAVE SOME FUN ON THE TRACK.
But if you disadvantage the others by gaining time by it and NOT give it back: That's what we care for and this is what we call a breach of Rule #7
Feel free to push over the limit, but be fair and honest and give the gained time back afterwards. It's a grey area with this "if you gained" time but everyone who watches one of these replays can clearly see when it's the case and when not

And to keep the abusement of the limits as low as possible we actually need the drivers to report it. No report, no action taken. But everyone can report it and we need drivers like Andy who open their mouth and speak about it

 

[Andy_J]

you have WAY too much time on your hands

What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.