Formula One: First Step Made Towards New Engine Formula

[Rob Every]

I think the manufacturers should be allowed a couple of different formats of engine, I would love to see V5 or V4 or straight 4 engines allowed just to add some diversity.

As long as they are enforced to supply other teams like now or are tied in to a future supply rule and are under the same restrictions as now then fair enough.

The problem often is the teams, getting them to agree on anything, it took Dorna years to get Yamaha, Honda and Ducato to agree on MotoGP new rules, but look what happened, KTM and Suzuki came back once they were stabilised!

So if Porsche wanted to come in with their V4, can you imagine getting Ferrari, Merc and Honda and Renault to agree to whatever terms would be needed to let this happen?

 

[Scottt]

I think the manufacturers should be allowed a couple of different formats of engine, I would love to see V5 or V4 or straight 4 engines allowed just to add some diversity.

That would be fantastic for fans (in the short term), but it would also drive costs way up. The more variables there are, the more research that needs to be done, which drives up costs quickly. Also, it would probably lead to an even greater dominance by the engine manufacturer who comes up with the best configuration.

 

[nepal roade]

It will never be a valid race until they implement single separate garage for each car and remove the team aspect and the obnoxious team orders. Plus they need to open up regulations to encourage innovation like this

 

[SE7en.]

new regulations seem amazing.

Though apart from all the engine crap, i've got one more issue with modern F1 cars:
They are so freaking gigantic and heavy!
They would be much nicer to drive and easier to battle with, if they were smaller and lighter.
Keep the 2m width, but make them shorter.
That will mean refueling has to return, but honestly i dont see a problem with that.
It always gave many strategic ways of going for the win, unlike the boring 1 stop races we have today.
May reintroduce some danger, but danger has, is and always will be an element of F1.
Also modern technology should enable us to safely refuel race cars.

 

[samcar304]

That will mean refueling has to return, but honestly i dont see a problem with that.
It always gave many strategic ways of going for the win, unlike the boring 1 stop races we have today.
May reintroduce some danger, but danger has, is and always will be an element of F1.
Also modern technology should enable us to safely refuel race cars.

This^
If refuelling is so dangerous why do GT cars, LMP Cars and Indycar use it?
I really wish it was back in F1.

 

[tlsmikey]

I would honestly settle for 4 cylinder engines that rev to 20k+RPM's at this point. I think the biggest issue has been this hybrid era. It's a mess, they haven't been all that reliable and it makes the costs too high. Can we just go back to regular engines...ya know like Blancpain, IMSA, Pirelli World Challenge, Supercar V8...pretty much every other form of motorsports.

 

[Knoxstar]

F1 needs to decide if it is to primarily be a sport or an engineering competition. Once that is decided, a logical progression of rules will follow. You can be both but you will do neither effectively until you have a direction.

 

[burrito]

No one talking about how they will maintain the power output of the current engines (which will reach 1000HP by the final year) with no MGU-H.

While it remains a sore point of contention, no one can say it isn't extremely clever and is the key to the entire engine layout. The MGU-H allows the huge, single turbo setup on a tiny ICE to be effective. The MGU-H is connected to the turbo and keeps it spooled even while the driver is off throttle (it's a good bit more complicated than that but for this discussion we'll leave it there). Thereby reducing/eliminating lag on a massive 3.3Bar turbo.

If F1 is to keep the ICE, even with an updated fuel flow to 120kg/hr (a 20% increase that will allow peak power to be at 12300RPM and probably qualifying modes in the range of 14000RPM) I can't see how they will keep a single turbo configuration with the same avg power output. It's important to note avg power these days with hybrid technology but also with turbo power. Hybrid does not last a whole lap due to charge but turbocharged engines also do not have maximum power across a whole lap due to lag.

Getting to the point of this discussion. A straight 1.6L V6 plus 3.3 turbocharger will have huge lag. Granted it is 80's technology but this is a dyno sheet from the M12 engine I have been working on for a few days. It had a race boost of 3.3Bar at roughly 10,000RPM.

If you look at the horespower figures, it gains 470HP (almost 5/8ths of its peak horsepower) in the 2000RPM between 8000RPM and 10000RPM.

Just to visualise that power lag, see it on a chart;

That was the 80's and this is now but F1 is looking at a massively laggy (and therefore slow and ridiculously hard to drive) 1000HP engine or it is looking at reducing the power output considerably.

As a reference for lag, AFAIK Indycar currently use a 2L V6 bi-turbo configuration with each turbo rated at 0.8Bar on road courses for a total of 1.6Bar. Those cars have visible turbo lag out of slow corners with only 0.8Bar turbos. Imagine what a single 3.3Bar turbo will be like in 2021.

There is however another option to all of this. F1 is scaremongering. A bi-turbo solution is known to be favoured by manufacturers not currently involved in the sport and this could be the first political move in getting there. Frankly I hope so because the two options mentioned prior are not modern F1; laggy turbos are not the peak of technology but neither are tame, 750HP engines exciting or hair raising.

 

[Rob Every]

Fair enough, disagree with my point, but point out an alternative?

My point was, F1 was better when there were multiple engine formats, different sounds. THe hybrod thing suffers from sound issues, so having different ones in there might spice things up.

My other point would be, it does not necessarily mean extra costs. Building an F1 engine is expensive anyway, so building a V4 or a 4 would be no more expensive.

Agreed if Merc decided to build one now it would cost millions, but this would be to start after a complete rule change, not mid V6 rules. So any manufacturer would do a weight up of what is the best solution, then be tied to it for the duration of that rule set.

It's not hard to work out the small issues with it. WEC teams like Audi did it it routinely over several years, V8, V12 diesel, V6 diesel, hybrid diesel. SO others could to

 

[Damage Inc]

I'm really struggling with why people think refuelling is good.....All the action should be on the track and races decided in pits are awfull IMO (exception being endurance races, I fully understand refuelling there). As others have mentioned the critical flaw with F1 is the downforce and how a driver cannot follow the car ahead closely. hence we have push a button to overtake nonsense like KERS and DRS. Drop the reliance on Aero grip, let the drivers follow each other (which will take balls) through a corner and see who can get the best traction out of the corner to set up the overtake, rather than the current "oh look I'm 1 second behind so can press my DRS button on this straight". It's truly, mind bogglingly awful awful awful. Thank god I also like motorbike races so get my real racing fix via BSB, WSB and MGP.

 

[Benutzername]

I'm really struggling with why people think refuelling is good.....All the action should be on the track and races decided in pits are awfull IMO (exception being endurance races, I fully understand refuelling there). As others have mentioned the critical flaw with F1 is the downforce and how a driver cannot follow the car ahead closely. hence we have push a button to overtake nonsense like KERS and DRS. Drop the reliance on Aero grip, let the drivers follow each other (which will take balls) through a corner and see who can get the best traction out of the corner to set up the overtake, rather than the current "oh look I'm 1 second behind so can press my DRS button on this straight". It's truly, mind bogglingly awful awful awful. Thank god I also like motorbike races so get my real racing fix via BSB, WSB and MGP.

Good thing about refueling is that the cars are lighter

Compare race and quali laptimes nowadays. They are an awful lot slower.
With refueling and proper tyres the cars are lighter, faster, more exciting and the drivers dont need to save fuel

 

[Dr. Death]

If they want to have a classic turbo without electronic aids im all for it, but raising the RPM limit from 12k to 15k its not gonna be enough. They should maybe have uncapped RPM limiter?

I would also rather see the removal of the DRS. It will allow for a lot more thinking of strategy when the teams have to set up the aero for a specific track.

 

[Terry Rock]

I think it's fair to say they'll never go back to the V8, V10 or V12 engines at this point.
That said; A V6 turbo with no RPM cap, no fuel restriction, no DRS and no KERS would make for extremely exciting racing.
Most fans would sacrifice outright top-speed for more 'complete' racing.
That Hybrid equipment and its integration, is what represents the bulk of the team's cost.
Even with increased fuel consumption, the cost minus hybrid would be way less.
Racing can't fall into any form of 'green' category by the very nature of what it is, but if they feel the need to show social consciousness, that'd suffice.
Racing fans need to be satisfied.
That is the basis for the sport and it's overall track-side attendance and television audience.
That is why the sport of Formula One exist..

 

[wombat999]

F1 needs to decide if it is to primarily be a sport or an engineering competition. Once that is decided, a logical progression of rules will follow. You can be both but you will do neither effectively until you have a direction.

And of course if became an 'Engineering Competition' all those pesky additions like drivers and tyres etc could be discarded and the power plants run on a Dyno..........

 

[paracletus]

Nevermind v12s, to make f1 more exciting, +1 for a return to "sprint-to-the-car and start your engines" grids.

 

[wombat999]

Just in: "Ferrari has become the latest manufacturer to question Liberty Media's plans for Formula 1 by warning it is prepared to walk away from grand prix racing after 2020.
Mercedes and Renault expressed concern on Wednesday that engine proposals for 2021 would start a needless arms race that could damage F1, but Ferrari has gone a step further and said it could quit completely if it was not happy.
In a conference call with analysts on Thursday to discuss Ferrari's latest financial results, president Sergio Marchionne said he was unimpressed with certain directions that Liberty had proposed, including the future engine rules."
What! Quitting again?

 

[Damage Inc]

Good thing about refueling is that the cars are lighter

Compare race and quali laptimes nowadays. They are an awful lot slower.
With refueling and proper tyres the cars are lighter, faster, more exciting and the drivers dont need to save fuel

But managing the fuel load is a driver skill, sometimes a setup can be better with more fuel and be worse as it lowers, yet another could have a setup that is the opposite, so there's a natural difference in pace. Although one could argue F1's race distance is neither sprint nor endurance and is a weird compromise with neither of the best of the others.

I don't really care about laptimes as long as the racing is good and flag to flag with driver and machine v driver and machine, and not some poor spud getting a wheel nut cross threaded or a fuel hose not working etc etc. I truly cannot think of a worse way to lose a title than a hard earned advantage gained on track wiped out by some pitlane calamity!

TLDR, I want a race that for someone to win they have to get past all the others "on the track" and not via some pitlane shenanigans.

 

[Benutzername]

But managing the fuel load is a driver skill, sometimes a setup can be better with more fuel and be worse as it lowers, yet another could have a setup that is the opposite, so there's a natural difference in pace. Although one could argue F1's race distance is neither sprint nor endurance and is a weird compromise with neither of the best of the others.

I don't really care about laptimes as long as the racing is good and flag to flag with driver and machine v driver and machine, and not some poor spud getting a wheel nut cross threaded or a fuel hose not working etc etc. I truly cannot think of a worse way to lose a title than a hard earned advantage gained on track wiped out by some pitlane calamity!

TLDR, I want a race that for someone to win they have to get past all the others "on the track" and not via some pitlane shenanigans.

Well i guess F1 always has been a weird mixture between sprint and endurance and therefore getting past everyone on track besides of in the pits is unlikely.
Or you overtake on the track but eith much better tyres, less fuel, drs or something else. Thats not really what you want either i assume


F1 is pretty strategic. A different kind of race.

Watch MotoGP if you want the flag to flag awesome overtake action.
As i said, different kind of race, but both entertaining racing

 

[apex11]

All i'd want now is some rule that all cars have the same power out put at the very least.
The last 4 seasons taking away the slight resurgence of Ferrari in 2017, imagine if you will that Lewis was at McLaren still and Alonso had gone to say Williams just because.
Anyway had Bottas been partnered with Nico over the last 4 seasons then we would now be talking about Nico the 3 or 4 times WDC!! Or worst still Bottas as a WDC!!
THAT is just how daft the Merc advantage has been and seemingly will continue to be...
Certainly 2014 / 15 / 16 WDC anyone in the Merc Factory car could of been the winner..
Until that happens its a pointless Championship IMO...

 

[Damage Inc]

Well i guess F1 always has been a weird mixture between sprint and endurance and therefore getting past everyone on track besides of in the pits is unlikely.
Or you overtake on the track but eith much better tyres, less fuel, drs or something else. Thats not really what you want either i assume


F1 is pretty strategic. A different kind of race.

Watch MotoGP if you want the flag to flag awesome overtake action.
As i said, different kind of race, but both entertaining racing

Not a big fan of "strategy" in races outside of Endurance if I'm honest. I'd like to see overtaking on the track possible via less reliance on aero. Sadly I no longer find F1 remotely entertaining any more.